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Post 20

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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The Donahue ones are interesting... tho not quite like actually being there as in Ford Hall...

Post 21

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 3:41amSanction this postReply
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I think the idea of Jamie is a good starter, when tells us that the motivation and the moral of the employees is an important thing. It is also important to have good PR and that's why Walmart spent 2 Million dollars in charity to support the refugees of the New Orleans disaster. Of course, this might take away a bit from the share-holders, but the PR effect is good for the business.
The problem comes when the "good-will" is dictate from the state or a minority (being less than 100%) of the shareholders, they both should have no right to dictate this to the company. The result can be seen in CSR reports all over the country.

Another example is John Doe in Peru, who have done social engineering in the community by providing health-care and other stuff for their employees. They have done this to get the trust of the people in the village and it was clearly in their self-interest.


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Post 22

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 5:28amSanction this postReply
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Marnee:
Profits are merely a means to an end. That end is chosen before the profits are made: what to produce, what value to create....
Profits should never be thought of as an end in themselves. Rogers and Friedman do understand that. It is Mackey who seems to mostly miss this point allthough he is arguing against 'profits as ends'. Dumb.
Oh and the reason you dont treat employees like shit is quite simple: because they are human beings providing the employer, the business with value and should be respected as such, highly even.

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Social Responsibility... as in the duty, obligation, or burden of relating to, or being occupied with matters affecting human welfare, should only be used in the same sentence as 'business' when stating that they don't have any.

Profits are merely a means to an end, and that end is more profits.

Business does not have any responsibilities whatsoever, the guy running the company has been given the responsibility to make it a profitable business, a good way to make the business profitable would normally include respecting employees, investors, customers, media, environment, community, politicians et al. but this is not a responsibility, merely a choice the policy makers of the business can make.

Don't forget that the business is a customer too, buying services from it's employees, saying business is responsible for employees welfare is like saying business owns employee like a slave.

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Post 23

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 5:35amSanction this postReply
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Where in the world did you get that pig? would love adding it to my collection...

Post 24

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Soren,

I am not quite sure why you've put the Cold Day in Hell and Starving Piggy Bank pictures in your post but I know some small business practitioners who would disagree with your sentence "Profits are merely a means to an end, and that end is more profits."

For them, the end of their business and its profits is the continued practice of their careers (think Howard Roark, or even Dagny or Hank). While they certainly like profits (which can help them stay in business or expand their operations and overcome new challenges), these are not the practitioners' ultimate end.

While I touched on it in my post ("While employees properly see themselves as their own ends"), the last sentence of Marnee's (sanctioned) post made explicit an important point - that we should treat all people with respect when we encounter them. That's not say that we can't reduce or rescind that respect if they turn out to be pillocks or a'holes.

(Edited by Andrew Bates on 9/28, 8:18pm)


Post 25

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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For them [business practitioners], the end of their business and its profits is the continued practice of their careers (think Howard Roark, or even Dagny or Hank). While they certainly like profits (which can help them stay in business or expand their operations and overcome new challenges), these are not the practitioners' ultimate end.
Andrew Bates, I completely agree. Profits merely allow an entrepreneur's vision to continue to be executed.

Now, I hate to do this, because I do not want to be labelled a Randroid (which I most certainly am not), but I think the case for the "Profits as a Means to the End of the Execution of An Entrepreneur's Vision" school can be succinctly summed up as follows:
 
To paraphase a favourite Howard Roark line:
 
"I don't build in order to have [profits]. I have [profits] in order to build."
 
That is all.
 
T

Post 26

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:53pmSanction this postReply
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quote Profits are merely a means to an end. That end is chosen before the profits are made: what to produce, what value to create....

Profits should never be thought of as an end in themselves. Rogers and Friedman do understand that. It is Mackey who seems to mostly miss this point allthough he is arguing against 'profits as ends'. Dumb.

Oh and the reason you dont treat employees like shit is quite simple: because they are human beings providing the employer, the business with value and should be respected as such, highly even.
Profits are the end, and the motivator to undertake the task in the first place, and to continue doing so. Producers produce for the reward of using their minds, and the fruits that come with it. In the business world this is profit. It is the carrot that makes the donkey move. Aristotle argues that the pleasure comes from the doing, and it does. This is why we choose the business that fits us. Greed. for lack of a better word, is good. It is an excellent motivator.

I have no economic training, but wouldn't the idea of "profits should never be thought of as an end in themselves" go against the speculators market?

Good seeing a fellow AZ techie on here. Maybe we can start our own group =)


Post 27

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 1:35amSanction this postReply
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I have no economic training, but wouldn't the idea of "profits should never be thought of as an end in themselves" go against the speculators market?

Not necessarily. P&L statements are certainly the criterion for success or failure in that business to a greater degree than in most others, but I have read many tales of traders who entered the business because they found it thrilling and challenging.


Post 28

Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 5:30amSanction this postReply
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Andrew Bates:
For them, the end of their business and its profits is the continued practice of their careers (think Howard Roark, or even Dagny or Hank). While they certainly like profits (which can help them stay in business or expand their operations and overcome new challenges), these are not the practitioners' ultimate end.


Personal motivation takes many forms - mental workout, physical challenge, professional pride, a sense of belonging, getting rich or getting food on the table - all of them equally valid, whatever makes people happy without hurting others is by definition good... but that is not the issue.

The issue was Social responsibility of business - business is a legal entity with no responsibility save that of operating within the frame of the law, and the agreements they have entered - as in that is their obligation and duty. The purpose of commercial enterprise is to generate money, the purpose of anyone owning, running or working in that business may be whatever they choose, and pursuing that purpose is the reason they need the business to be profitable, profit is the common denominator for all aspects of business. Setting profits as the described goal of a business - it's highest value - will most likely work against that goal, but a goal it is nonetheless.

Treating people with respect is good, i certainly aim to do so, but only because i have so chosen - it's not an obligation - it's a commodity i offer expecting mutual respect as ROI.

I live in a country with a liberalistic government, a power they use to confiscate 70% of our property in taxes, for redistribution to the common good, i'm trying to run a small business in a country where it is illegal to terminate the employment of pregnant women for whatever reason, in a country where it is the employers responsibility to pay full salary while these women go home and take care of their newly born children for 52 weeks, i live in a country where all business legislation for the last 40 years have been designed to protect the worker from the employer, while not one single piece of legislation has been made to protect the employer - or removed from the employee - and i get angry whenever i see this 'them against us' mentality - the employer and the employee are working together in a way that is beneficial to both, and they both hold an equal amount of power over each other.

I pay my employees considerably more than average, i allow them more than average vacation, i respect them for who they are and what they do, and i show that respect, i strive to keep my customers happy, i strive to keep my subcontractors happy - but its not an obligation, it's simply a sound way to ensure that i can sell high quality at a high price. - only once did i offer less than normal to an employee, she came waving her agreements from the union demanding her rights... and though i was part of no agreement with any kind of union i let her have exactly what the union had managed to negotiate on her behalf, poor creature.

Forget the duties and obligations, remove the legislation and let the business that doesn't treat its employees well lose its employees, its customers and its profits.

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