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Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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It's appalling indeed. Iran was the first Middle Eastern country the American Empire meddled with, back in 1953. This kind of garbage is an indirect result of that meddling.

Chris


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Post 1

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
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I knew it!  Before the "ink" would be dry on this article, some moron would blame America.  Big shock. GFY Chris, if you understand that expression.

Post 2

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Right Chris, because the Iranians are actually children that should not be treated as adults, but instead treated as hapless victims of American actions that occurred 53 years ago, yet bear no relevance to the choice of actions the Iranians choose today. They are not to be held to the same moral standards as America. Iran is a child, perhaps worse, a retarded child, devoid of understanding the difference between right and wrong. Only America has the ability to be moral, Iran is a country filled with amoral beings so it is America's responsibility to make sure the rest of the world is behaving as it should.

So really this is all America's fault, the great Satan of the world. If it wasn't for our meddling, the Middle East would be free of Islamic culture and Shariah law. A culture that has a prophet that was a pedophile, a rapist, and a cold-blooded murderer. (I'm still trying to figure out how things would be different without American meddling).

Why don't you take your anti-Americanism poison else where? Or at least post in the dissent thread where your comments would be more appropriate.


(Edited by John Armaos
on 7/26, 1:56pm)


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Post 3

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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Naw, guys, you aren't being FUNDAMENTAL enough. Let's blame this girl's hanging on JEFFERSON. After all, if he hadn't "intervened" against the Barbary pirates....

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Post 4

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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If you guys are waiting for Chris to make a logical argument and/or meaningful/coherent statement, you are wasting your time.

Post 5

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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Chris, doesn't the fact of the age of Sharia law (it's an ancient tradition) weaken your inference just a little bit?

These rights-disrespecting laws were being practiced long before the US was even an entity on planet earth. Doesn't that hurt your case (that savage arabs came up with, and enforced, these heinous acts themselves -- without our "help")?

Just checking for even a hint of rationality from you.

Ed


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Post 6

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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Nope, this can't be hung on the US and the US shouldn't apologize for its heroic promulgation of freedom in the world, but we've had our share of disasters too. None of these countries has people wigging out and strapping bombs to their back (except some Indonesian Muslims):

1. Indonesian dictator Suharto supported by the American CIA, over 1 million people killed.
2. ARENA dictatorship in El Salvador
3. Pinochet coup and subsequent collaboration by Kissinger with the military junta that became the Videla dictatorship in Argentina and the dictatorship of Uruguay
4. Brutal Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua
5. Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines.
6. Instigating a decades long civil war in Angola which finally ended when Jonas Savimbi was killed.

These are just a few. America has gotten better about not getting in bed with dictators but we've still got a ways to go...


Post 7

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, how I passionately wish the US would meddle--but in a way that really counts, that really says something, that really does something of permanent value!

Post 8

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Question to Chris:

In an anarchist world, would private groups of Muslims have the "right" to institute and enforce Sharia law, and interpretations of "rights" and "freedom"?

If not...who would act to stop them, and in the name of what?

Post 9

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
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The blame is totally on the Islamist savages who perpetrated the deed and who promote a irrational savage culture. Here are a list of other such atrocities, including hangings, by similar savages from an op-ed last year:

Deep Savages

March 18, 2005 -- Last week Mukhtar Mai, a Pakistani woman, expressed concern that the four men who gang raped her nearly three years ago were ordered by a court to be released from prison. The rape had been ordered by her village council as revenge against her brother, who allegedly had had consensual sex with a woman from a prominent family, a charge he denied. In reaction to overseas outrage Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf had ordered the men's arrest but now they are going free.

This atrocity echoes too many others we've heard about in recent years.

In 1999 a mentally retarded 16-year-old girl in Pakistan was raped. The crime was reported and the culprit caught. But the local tribal council ordered the girl killed in front of their gathering; the rape had disgraced her tribe.

In July 2001 in India a young couple, he 19, she 18, were publicly hanged as hundreds of villagers watched not in horror but with cheers of approval. The couple's crime: they were in love but from different castes.

These legalized crimes do not occur only among the uneducated. In April 1999 a 28-year-old Pakistani woman who was seeking a divorce, which her family opposed, from her abusive husband, was asked by her mother, a doctor, to come to the office of a prominent lawyer to discuss the matter. When she arrived she was shot to death at her mother's orders.

These horrors remind us of several important truths: Many cultures and moral codes in the world today are savage and inhuman. Because this savagery is part of a culture, usually with religious underpinnings -- in these cases, Muslim and Hindu -- it is deeply ingrained, like dirt in one's pores, in cold hearts and closed minds. This savagery is not only manifest in large-scale terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center or suicide bombers in Iraq and Israel, but also in personal one-on-one, blood-on-their-hands murder.

The above extreme examples, which concern the abuse of women, are rooted in cultures and attitudes that have other anti-individualist manifestations, and the danger is that immigrants from those cultures to more civilized countries will bring with them those attitudes. In the Netherlands, for example, which has a large immigrant Muslim population, filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was murdered by a militant Islamist in reaction to his film "Submission," which documented the abuse by Muslims of women. It included scenes in which passages from the Koran were written on the bodies of naked women, and women were beaten as someone read scriptures that seem to justify the oppression of women.

Some might note, correctly, that most Muslims or other immigrants to America or other Western countries are not jihadists. But the world is much more interconnected today than in past centuries. Immigrants can continue to immerse themselves in their native cultures, for better or worse, through satellite broadcasts, e-mails and the Internet. Thus in the West and especially in America, the country created by immigrants, it is imperative to discuss openly and without concern for political correctness of irrational sensitivities that obscure the truth, the moral and cultural foundations of a free society.

In the Netherlands Ayaan Hirsi Ali, born a Muslim in Somalia, has done so by crusading against the abuse of women in her culture and was elected to the Dutch Parliament. She had to go briefly into hiding because of death threats after the Van Gogh murder, but she continues to courageously fight for civilized principles.

In America this discussion has not progressed the way it must if the values that underpin freedom are to be reinforced. Because nearly all Americans have an immigrant past, we must understand that immigrants are our strength, but only if, while keeping the good parts of their own cultures, they adopt those of individual liberty, personal responsibility and respect for others that made America the greatest country in the world.

----------------

P.S. -- I hope those who criticize some of us at our organization as being soft value relativists will take a quick peek at this piece. -- Ed

(Edited by Ed Hudgins on 7/26, 2:55pm)


Post 10

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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Just a major retraction ...

In my post above, I mentioned 'savage arabs' -- this is mistaken and requires correction (Iranians aren't Arabs, for one; and nationality has nothing to do with it either).

I meant 'savage muslims.'

Ed
[it's very important to say what you mean -- when you are judging others]


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Post 11

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 5:38pmSanction this postReply
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This tragic case is yet another argument for attacking the Iranian government and saying to hell with "non-violation of national soverignty" and "non-interference in internal affairs." Why not use smart bombs to take out the responsible courts, police stations, prisons, and even crane companies? We should state our reasons and motivations for such acts with painful and insulting clarity.
 
Power to the people, death to the government!


Post 12

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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EXECUTIONS AROUND THE WORLD
In 2005, there were at least 2,148 executions in 22 countries around the world. China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the United States were responsible for 94 percent of these known executions. The following countries executed defendants in 2005 (most figures are only of confirmed executions):
Most Executions in 2005
1. CHINA (At least 1,770 Executions)
2. IRAN (At least 94)
3. SAUDI ARABIA (At least 86)
4. UNITED STATES (60)
5. Pakistan (31)
6. Yemen (24)
7. Vietnam (21)
8. Jordan (11)
9. Mongolia (8)
10. Singapore (6)

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng

 (And yes, American states have executed mentally retarded prisoners.)


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Post 13

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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 M. Marotta said:
(And yes, American states have executed mentally retarded prisoners.)
Yeah, we regularly execute fornicators. Sure. We are so bad.


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Post 14

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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Marotta, in an effort to morally equivocate the US with Iran posted:

EXECUTIONS AROUND THE WORLD
In 2005, there were at least 2,148 executions in 22 countries around the world. China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the United States were responsible for 94 percent of these known executions. The following countries executed defendants in 2005 (most figures are only of confirmed executions):
Most Executions in 2005
1. CHINA (At least 1,770 Executions)
2. IRAN (At least 94)
3. SAUDI ARABIA (At least 86)
4. UNITED STATES (60)
5. Pakistan (31)
6. Yemen (24)
7. Vietnam (21)
8. Jordan (11)
9. Mongolia (8)
10. Singapore (6)

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng

(And yes, American states have executed mentally retarded prisoners.)



Vietnam only 21? That's a total lie. And where's Cuba? The problem with these statistics is that the only country that is honest and open about how many are executed is the United States. Although as a matter of principle I am against the death penalty for reasons of possible errors in innocence or guilt, I'm always weary of these attempts at anti-Americanism. These statistics never tell you the whole story.

And the statistics are incredibly misleading.


Notice it says "China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the United States were responsible for 94 percent of these known executions" but look at how much of that percentage is China! It's an overwhelming majority of the executions.

Now all these executions added up equals 2111 executions. (Which is far higher when taking into account these countries except the US are lying and totally understating the figures), so if this comprises of 94 percent of all executions, then there were 2246 executions world wide.

So let's look at this as percentage:

China 79%
Iran 4%
Saudi Arabia 3.8%
United States 2.6%
And so on....

So really the United States made up 2.6 percent of all world wide executions. Doesn't sound as dramatic as grouping it together with China and saying 94 percent does it? Most rational people can understand how this is mere trickery and psychological manipulation by stating the numbers this way.

Now taken as a percentage of each nation's population per 10,000 (I chose per 10,000 to make the numbers easier to look at):

China 1.8%
Iran 1.4%
Saudi Arabia 2.9%
United States 0.2%

US has an execution rate 14 times lower than Saudi Arabia! And 7 times lower than Iran! According to Amnesty International, China's executions probably number 8,000, not 1771. Now let's look at that as a percentage of population per 10,000:

China 8%!!!

That's 40 times higher than the execution rate of the United States!!!

Also note apparently 2005 the executions were unusually high for the US. Since 1976, the total number executed is 1035, which is an average of 34.5 per year as opposed to the one time statistic of 60 in the year 2005.

Now let's look at what people get executed for in these countries:

China - Pretty much political dissidents are executed
Iran - Little girls who are raped by police officers, get executed. The men who rape these little girls usually get no jail time.
Saudi Arabia - Same as Iran.
United States - In all the states that have capital punishment, the only crime people have been executed for is murder or conspiracy to murder.

But once again, here comes Marotta, twisting the facts, manipulating the truth to make the United States look like the great Satan. This is nothing but moral relativism.

Does anyone else here find this anti-Americanism tiresome and really unoriginal?









Post 15

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 12:57amSanction this postReply
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John,

Where is the twisting and manipulating that you accuse Michael of?

All I saw were facts, which you did a good job dealing with.


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Post 16

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 4:23amSanction this postReply
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Vietnam only 21? That's a total lie. And where's Cuba?
Why John, those numbers come from the popular and obviously trustworthy Ministries of Honest Truth, usually the first government office opened after communist revolutions.

Even Amnesty own pages state the numbers are not accurate -
http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/vnm-summary-eng
At least 88 people – including 12 women – were sentenced to death in 2004; 44 for drug offences and six for fraud, according to official sources. At least 64 people, four of them women, were reported executed. The true figures were believed to be much higher.

In January, the Prime Minister issued a decree making the reporting and dissemination of statistics on the use of the death penalty a “state secret”. However, some death penalty and execution cases continued to be reported in the Vietnamese news media.

In October, the Prime Minister asked the police to consider changing the method of execution because nervous members of firing squads with trembling hands frequently missed the target. It was reported that relatives of executed prisoners had to bribe officials for the return of bodies which were otherwise buried in the execution ground


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Post 17

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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But once again, here comes Marotta, twisting the facts, manipulating the truth to make the United States look like the great Satan. This is nothing but moral relativism
.

John, I have a question: If I murder 8 people, and person X murders 800, did I do anything wrong?


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Post 18

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from with the question but of course, you would be doing wrong killing 8 people. (assuming you mean killing not in self-defense) But the question is one of moral equivocation. Why are people executed in the US when compared to the reasons other countries execute people? And are the numbers really that high for the US when compared as percentage of population to the rest of the world? Remember, the people in the US that get executed are for crimes of murder and conspiracy to murder. Not because someone spoke out against the government, or for being a rape victim.

Post 19

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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Excellent illumination, John A.

Ed

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