About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I assume Monart thinks that sites like http://www.reopen911.org/ and http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/ warrant our serious consideration?

Honestly, I value my time as my most precious commodity.  I have seen many "conspiracy" sites that could easily consume my every waking minute if I let them.  Pardon me if I look very skeptically at such argumentation.

Have you ever read The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan?  Anyone researching conspiracy theories needs to read that book to learn how easily people can delude themselves.  I will admit that the delusion can work both ways, i.e. for or against "mainstream" explanations of observations.


Sanction: 37, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 37, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 37, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 37, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Conspiracy theorists never bother with the scientific principle of Occam's Razor. Somehow our government could orchestrate a massive conspiracy to kill thousands of our own citizens in order to wage a war on terror yet not one shred of credible evidence has surfaced. Yet consider that a secret wiretapping scandal by the NSA, secret prisons run by the CIA in Eastern European countries, and the secret memos by our Attorney General authorizing torture could not be held secret by a cabal of conpirators is damning enough proof our government is simply not capable of committing massive consipiracies for any considerable length of time.

You would think if the government was capable of orchestrating such a massive conspiracy the conspiracy theorists propose the government pulled off on 9/11, why in the hell were they not able to pull of a similar conspiracy to show Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? Seriously, we have stockpiles of the stuff ourselves, none of these mastermind government conspirators tried to plant some of our own WMD in Iraq to justify the Iraq war? The most incredibly easy conspiracy plan that could be executed and not one government agency tried to act upon that yet the most complex conspiracy in human history of killing thousands on 9/11 through suicidal terrorists, and we're expected to believe the government could pull it off without breaking a bead of sweat?

What's more likely to have happened? That the government orchestrated the most complex conspiracy of the century for motives that are not entirely understood, or that terrorists who have been attacking the Western world for the better part of the last half century brought down those two towers?

Monart Pon, you are only wasting your own time and everyone elses. It's sad that you don't put your energy and time into something more productive and useful instead you choose to squandor it on this garbage.

Post 2

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Monart,

I remember you putting out some good things on the Cornell Objectivism discussion group. I enjoyed Robert's article, so thanks at least for the link. Sagan's Demon Haunted World was excellent, it had one paragraph, I believe, that made me arch my brows, otherwise it was passably Objectivist.

Ted

Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 2:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Monart: "It's a Conspiracy" reminds me of the many anti-Rand articles, whose authors read very little of Rand, but who try not to refute her ideas, but to misrepresent, smear, and ridicule them so as to discourage people from reading her works for themselves. That the "...Conspiracy" article was written by an objectivist intellectual and published in an objectivist magazine is either a huge unfunny joke, or is a sign of incipient corruption that truth-seekers should expose and condemn before it spreads.”

 

Monart, and fellow truth-seeker, truer words have never been spoken - nor ever as eloquently. And the method you used to identify and accurately compare Bidinotto's "It's a Conspiracy" article, to the articles written by anti-Rand authors - that was positively brilliant. 

 

But you have to ask yourself, if an incipient, ridiculing, smear-merchant - which you infer Bidinotto is, if this person publishes an Objectivist periodical, then - what is he after? This is even deeper than you think, Monart. And there’s more to this than just a single mistaken article. Let me tell you that, after years of reading and closely scrutinizing this man’s writings, that there is a definite pattern that can be discerned. Monart, and fellow truth seeker, we need to take a deeper look at Bidinotto, as well as all of his closest associates. Obviously, this man poses a serious threat, not only to Objectivists, but to all of our fellow truth-seekers (you know, people like: Michael Moore, Louis Farrakhan, and the fans of LewRockwell.com).

 

Monart: “An article like Bidinotto’s “It’s a Conspiracy”, in an objectivist magazine, can only be taken seriously if it were intended as a parody — a parody of an article written with unchecked premises and unexamined prejudices, aiming to dismiss rather than dispute, to intimidate rather than inform, to ridicule rather than reason.”

 

Monart, and fellow truth seeker, that was very well said, and right on the mark. In fact, it was quite understated; Bidinotto is far worse than that, he's positively evil. Of course there was a time when this charlatan had me fooled, but no longer. And if anyone has any doubts on the depth of his depravity, one need only read a recent film review he wrote.

 

It's too bad, Monart, that your post could not be set to music; for a post like that is deserving of its own unique and original musical score. And properly, that score would be titled: The Concerto of Ridiculousness.


 

Sincerely,

 

Your fellow truth-seeker.

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 11/20, 5:05am)


Post 4

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
You're echoing the defective reasoning and attempting the same kind of intimidation found in Bidinotto's article, so my commentary applies equally to you. Dare to read with care and attention.

Post 5

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Luke, the websites you asked about would not be my first recommendation for the new 9/11 investigator. David Griffen's books mentioned in my article are my first recommendations. It's good that you recognize that Occam's Razor can cut both ways.

Post 6

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 10:45pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bidinotto's article persuades only the choir.

Post 7

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 5:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
but John, the media is also in on it.  They reveal just enough so that no one learns the REAL truth!

Post 8

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think John is in on it too!

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 6:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
George,

AHA! You TURNCOAT! I always SUSPECTED that you were secretly conspiring against me.

Seriously, Monart has been a friend, and a loyal reader and long-time advertiser in The New Individualist. He and I do happen to disagree over this matter. But I trust that he and everyone else realizes that opinions in signed articles within the magazine represent those of the author alone -- not necessarily those of the trustees or staff of The Atlas Society, or of other contributors to the magazine.

That said, I trust that Monart and I can continue to cooperate in those many, many areas where we DO happen to agree. That's the normal, grown-up way of dealing with others -- the way that I'd like to see more Objectivists adopt.

Post 10

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 6:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Monart said:
Bidinotto's article persuades only the choir.
I shudder when I think about who you are preaching to.


Post 11

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Since the deeds of 9/11 were obviously perpetrated by more than person, every theory on the deeds of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory.


Post 12

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Note: Post #4 was in response to Post #1, #5 to #0, and #6 to # 2.

Post 13

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
In addition the books I suggested, here is a video, "The Truth and Lies of 9/11", at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145

Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 14

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Maddox has spoken, case closed:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons


Post 15

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Or you can simply watch the Alex Jones movie Terrorstrom.

But something much more educational is simply to read the stuff at the Project for the New American Century. Their "statement of principles" was prepared by the usual suspects and demonstrates quite clearly their dream of perpetual world war:

June 3, 1997

 
American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.
 
We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.
 
As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?
 
We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.
Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.
Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

Elliott Abrams    Gary Bauer    William J. Bennett    Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney    Eliot A. Cohen    Midge Decter    Paula Dobriansky    Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg    Francis Fukuyama    Frank Gaffney    Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan
   Zalmay Khalilzad    I. Lewis Libby    Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle
   Peter W. Rodman    Stephen P. Rosen    Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld
   Vin Weber    George Weigel    Paul Wolfowitz



Post 16

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Similar stories about Pearl Harbor have been knocking around the old right / libertarian demimonde for some 60 years.  I used to grant them a courteous listening if not serious credence, but now even that seems too much.  The maximum lifespan for a conspiracy theory is two years.  By then, either investigation has proven it right (Watergate or the various Clinton coverups) or it isn't worth our consideration any more.  Pearl Harbor and 9/11 have both failed the test.

Peter


Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Post 17

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Monart Pon, perhaps you can tell us which conspiracy theory regarding 9/11 that you give credence to and why? You criticize Bidinotto and myself for using arguments from intimidation, but that is way too easy a cop out since you have not provided on this forum what conspiracy theory regarding 9/11 that you ascribe too. Where could we even begin to discuss or offer a counter-argument when you have not offered a conspiracy theory to begin with? Your only criticism is that we don't give credence to conspiracy theories about 9/11 yet what is it that you have a problem exactly?

Was it the government that conspired to bring those two towers down to fund a war on terror and take away our liberties? Was it the Jews that conspired to bring down those towers to get the United States to be sympathetic to Israeli interests? What's your conspiracy theory? And why do you ascribe to it, and where is your proof? You do realize the burden of proof is on the conspiracy theorists, the ones making the claim. They are the ones making extraordinary claims which require extraordinary evidence.  If you think Occam's Razor cuts both ways you have failed to grasp the principle. When we have a set of facts before us, the theory or explanation that is the simplest one is the one more likely to be true.   I don't see how you could characterize that as cutting both ways? That seems nonsensical to me.

And it was a conspiracy. 19 Islamo fascist terrorists conspired to hijack four American commerical planes and fly them into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. That is the simplest explanation. If the US government played a hand in that we would have to establish both a credible motive and evidence such a thing happened. Unless that's provided we have no reason to believe it. As I said before, Monart Pon, how do you explain that the more simpler conspiracies the government has tried to keep a secret but have failed so miserably to do, such as the NSA warrantless wiretapping scandel, the secret memos authorizing torture, and the secret CIA prisons, and none of them were successful conspiracies yet something so grand and so complex as the government, or a cabal of Jewish conspirators to bring down the WTC was a resounding success? Isn't it the simpler explanation that the more complex a conspiracy is, the more people that is involved, the more likely it is the conspiracy would be revealed to the public?



Post 18

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi, Monart,

I am reading a good book called Persuasion Engineering by Richard Bandler (and others). Bandler makes some important arguments about persuasion. He points out that when you are selling something, you are always selling feelings.

The Bush administration has sold its war to many people becuase of the feelings that he has sold with that war. These feelings include:

1. Americans are type of superior race who have a right to kill everyone else.
2. Americans are constantly attacked by these inferiors because of their supposed superiority.
3. Americans are never wrong.

These feelings are very important to Americans (and to Objectivists). Because these feelings are associated with the so-called war on terror, Americans embrace this war.

When you are selling any type of theory to those who don't believe in that theory, you have to sell them feelings that they want to buy. These theories on 9-11 are rejected largely because of the feelings associated with them.

So, if you want to sell a theory, sell it with different feelings. This isn't easy, of course, because people (especially Objectivists) don't like to admit that they are wrong or have ever been wrong. They certainly don't like to admit that they ahve been suckered by someone like George Bush. What feeling does this give them? I don't know. But I will do my best to find out. It's the only way to sell a theory successfully.


Post 19

Monday, November 20, 2006 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Big Thanks to Monart Pon for his comments about problems with the official explanation about 911, and Bidinotto's article. According to a recent poll, over 36% of Americans now think the federal government was either complicit in or orchestrated the World Trade Center disaster.

There are enormous problems with the official story--inconvenient stubborn facts that contradict what we've been told to believe about that terrible day. These facts include, but are not restricted to, the following:

1) Weeks after September 11th, cleanup workers found several hot spots of molten steel, as related and photographed in various newspaper reports. To melt steel requires temperatures in excess of 2800 degrees Farenheit for an extended time. The fires from the aircraft collisions that supposedly brought down the buildings burned kerosene, which under idealized lab conditions burns at peak temperatures of 1700 F. http://911readingroom.org/bib/docs/WhyIndeed_version3.pdf


2) The 110 story Twin Towers fell into their own footprints with breathtaking speed--less than 10 seconds from tower to rubble. The rate of free fall--the time required for a steel ball bearing dropped from the 110th story to hit the pavement--is 8 seconds. The collapse of each Tower allowed less than 2 seconds for each of 110 stories--only 4 of which were significantly damaged by the aircraft collisions--to delay the descent of floors above it. Film footage illustrates building material projected hundreds of feet outward; and many hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete were literally pulverized, we're supposed to believe, from the force of gravity.

3) The 47 story World Trade Center building #7 mysteriously fell down at about 5:30 pm of that afternoon, in 6.5 seconds, after being struck by.....what? Building # 7 hosted a few small fires on its upper floors.

4) Numerous eye-witnesses--firemen, medical emergency workers, reporters, at least one Wall Streeter who observed the collapse from an adjacent building, and others--reported hearing numerous loud explosions just before the collapse and/or seeing what looked like sequential detonation plumes appearing around the perimeter of the buildings. The New York City fire department duly recorded these observations in 2001 and took steps to publish the results in 2001. However, Mayor Bloomberg suppressed publication, which necessitated a law suit by the Fire Department, assisted by the New York Times, to obtain legal permission to publish these reports!  The NYCFD and Times prevailed in 2005, and published the eye witness accounts later that year. http://911truth.org/article.php?story=20060818104223192

Anyone who wants facts about the lead-up to Pearl Harbor should read Robert Stinnett's Day of Deceit: the Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor. (Published in 2000) Stinnett proves beyond any reasonable doubt that FDR purposefully provoked and had foreknowlege of the Japanese attack. He does so through FOIA releases of many documents that had long been censored by the NSA, and by numerous interviews of surviving low ranking military intelligence workers--radiographers and cryptologists--who listened to and logged Japanese radio signals in the years and months before December 7th, 1941. Incidentally, these American soldiers enthusiastically supported Stinnett's research. Most of the documents relating to radio intercepts of the Japanese and other facets of those events, which Stinnett estimates might exceed 200,000 documents, are still classified!

In 2000, Congress passed Defense legislation that Clinton signed, which included a resolution exonerating Admiral Kimmel and General Short, who commanded the Navy and Army at Pearl Harbor, of dereliction of duty relating to the Japanese attack. The resolution specificially referred to Kimmel and Short being deprived of military intelligence (in the possession of the military command hierarchy) of the approaching Japanese flotilla steaming toward Pearl Harbor. 

As to assertions that big coverups are simply a priori impossible, there is good and credible explanation as to how truth may be suppressed for a while, and powerful evidence that proves key players in both 911 and Pearl lied. Moreover, that many failings of the Big State, such as being wrong about WMDs in Iraq, get exposed is hardly proof that a State could never use deceit and treachery against its own subjects. In fact, no one disputes that states engage in conspiracies against other countries (Japan's attack of Pearl Harbor) or against their own subjects (the Holocaust). What many find difficult to accept is that their own state could use treachery against them.

But this is fodder for discussion some other day.


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.