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Post 0

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Merlon, since I can't sanction this link, I've sanctioned a very old random post of yours.

Ted

PS, it appears I can sanction it after all, enjoy the extra points.


(Edited by Ted Keer
on 5/21, 8:41pm)


Post 1

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
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Sharpton does indeed evade, but what did you expect. The man is a dishonest demagogue politically, so why would one expect him to be honest and forthright about religion?! What a charade!

- Bill

P.S. Ted, why can't you sanction the link? Just click the arrow next to "Discuss this News."
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 5/21, 7:00pm)


Post 2

Monday, May 21, 2007 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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Interesting debate.  While Hitchens delivered many of his trademark zingers, I do think he dodged Sharpton's question about the general concept of God.  He could have put Sharpton on the spot more by making him define the concept of God to begin with and poking holes from there.  Sharpton kept referring to a generic creator God as a metaphysically given, which is obviously problematic.  I'd give Hitchens a B. 

Post 3

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 4:58amSanction this postReply
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Pete, I agree. I think Hitchens also missed an opportunity when Sharpton asks him if he thinks that atheists aren't responsible for any evil in the world. He responded with something like believers can be good or bad and atheists the same, mentioning people on death row. The opportunity he missed is this. Keeping it simple, about 95% of the people in the world are believers and fewer than 5% are atheists. If being a believer or atheist makes no difference moral-wise, then 95% of evil in the world is attributable to believers. Even if atheists are (very generously) twice as bad as believers, then .05*2 + .95*x = 1 and x = 0.95. So .95 *.95 = .90 and 90% of evil is done by believers. That's still most of it. Modify this for agnostics, and still most is attributable to believers.

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Post 4

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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Merlin -- Thanks for the post! Hitchens was good as always and Sharpton evasive.

But Hitch did miss an obvious opportunity to respond to Sharpton's attempt to focus on god as such to ask "What is god?" and pointing out that god is a nonsensical concept. He could have used to easy response to Sharpton's question about "Who or what created or started the universe?" by asking "Who or what created god?"

Also Hitch couldn't get to the heart of the morality question because few of the current group of new atheists--Harris, Dawkins, Dennett--know how to think about objective morality. That's where Objectivists come in.

I've been outlining a book on the subject, addressed to humanists/skeptics.


Post 5

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
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This was great to watch! 

I kept telling Sharpton, via my monitor alone, "Dude, you're saying you'd believe in God without the bible??"

Hitchens said it better, almost under his breath:
"I've yet to meet anyone who would say the bible has nothing to do with God."

Excellent link, Merlin.  


Post 6

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Did you notice that one of the questioners, who appeared to be a young black woman, did ask Sharpton who or what created God?, and Sharpton's reply was, "I don't know, but it doesn't matter, because God is here, and that's what's important." The question of who or what created God works if the theist bases his or her belief on the idea that everything has to have a cause and that the first cause is God. But that was not Sharpton's rationale for his belief in God, which appeared to be personal experience. He said that he believes in God because of a religious experience of some kind. I think the best reply to that is to ask him, first, how a subjective feeling counts as proof for a supernatural being, and secondly, to point out as Dawkins does, that since consciousness arose at the end of a long chain of biological evolution, it could not have existed at the beginning of time to create the universe.

- Bill

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Post 7

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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Sharpton seemed to give a half-assed argument from design, along with subjective personal experience as the basis of his theism.  He kept stressing that the complexity and order that science uncovers in the universe is evidence of a supreme creator that laid it all out.  He combined that with his personal experience that we had to take his word on.   

The second scripture was mentioned, Sharpton ran for the hills and retreated in his generic creator God.  He knew full well that Hitchens' scripture passages were indefensible in rational debate.  Intelligent design proponets do this all the time.

Also, I was disappointed to see that Hitchens totally conceded the point about not being able prove God's non-existence.  He should have at least pointed out the problems of proving a negative.  I would have used the following analogy: suppose someone publicly accused you (wrongfully I hope!) of being a Holocaust denier without presenting any evidence whatsoever, and that you were put on trial for this (this happens in some countries, unfortunately).  Wouldn't it only be fair if the prosecution laid out a case with positive evidence to support their claim (books you've written, recorded speeches, etc)?  It would be the pinnacle of injustice if the court were to say, "there's not a shred of evidence to support the charges against you, but the burden of proof is still on you to demonstrate that you're NOT a holocause denier deep down."  This is exactly the unfair position theists put atheists in when they challenge you to disprove an imaginary man in the sky.   


Post 8

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent points, Pete! Yes, Hitchens wasn't very good philosophically. Dawkins would have been better, I think, and not an inappropriate choice, given his recent book, The God Delusion, or Sam Harris. Ed Hudgins is right, the morality issue needs to be dealt with better than most contemporary atheists are doing. Objectivism really has a handle on that issue, and has a lot to contribute to the recent interest in atheism and secular philosophy.

- Bill

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Post 9

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
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I believe that even speaking to Al Sharpton sanctions his status.  I would not even do that - anything he has to say should be dismissed out of hand as irrelevant.  He is a known charlatan and liar.

Post 10

Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 11:36amSanction this postReply
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What Kurt said.
Sanction! (I sanction a lot of Kurt's stuff; he's cool :-)


For the most part, I love Hitchens, and was a tad disappointed to see him stoop to Sharpton's level (by even "debating" with him.)

I wouldn't agree to be in the same room with Al Sharpton myself, and I'm a nobody (philosophically, politically, or otherwise.)


Erica



Post 11

Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 11:42amSanction this postReply
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and I'm a nobody (philosophically, politically, or otherwise.)

 

Quite the contrary, Erica - you're far from any nobody....;-)


Post 12

Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Erica & Kurt,

I agree with you,  Hitchens is great, debating with Sharpton only gives Sharpton an opportunity to bloviate in front of a larger audience .  It brings to mind the admonition "never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it"..


Post 13

Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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     I think Hitchens' biggest mistakes were:

1st) putting the word 'God' in his book title, since it was religions (or religious-beliefs aka 'faith') he was primarily arguing about re effects in history.

2nd) that he allowed Sharpton to focus on the concept 'God', rather than Hitchens' book's aforesaid primary points.

     Hitchens has little background to debate any 'God exists' subject, beyond saying there's no 'reason' for accepting the idea. --- On other subjects, he's a 1st class debater.

LLAP
J:D


Post 14

Friday, May 25, 2007 - 1:09amSanction this postReply
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"Hitchens has little background to debate any 'God exists' subject, beyond saying there's no 'reason' for accepting the idea. --- On other subjects, he's a 1st class debater."

I haven't watched the debate yet, but Hitchens' mother's a Polish Jew. He was invited by the Vatican to play Devil's advocate contra Mother Theresa, and he's perhaps one of the most intelligent men in the public eye, and certainly one of the best read and most educated. I haven't yet had time to watch the debate, but he's certainly much more qualified than relativists like Dawkins to speak on the subject.

Ted

Hitchens became an American citizen this year on his and Jefferson's birthday.


Post 15

Friday, May 25, 2007 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

     What I meant was, that Hitchens is not that versed in philosophical/theological arguing/arguments per se, as shown by Sharpton's evasive segues allowed by Christopher.

     He did do a fascinating monograph on Theresa, and was requested to be the D-A re her sainthood, yes; such had little to do with ontology though.

LLAP
J:D


Post 16

Friday, May 25, 2007 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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No, John, one doesn't need to be an ontologer to divine Theresa's deviltry. At some point I'll watch the video.

Ted

Post 17

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

     By 'monograph', I meant Hitchens' writings. I believe they were originally a mag-series then put into a booklet form. However, the YouTube interview is also interesting.

     While we're on the subject of that suffering-obsessed dictator-succubus, Penn&Teller have an interesting "BULL$#!+" Y-T vid (with a cameo by Hitch). They even find her original (and near unpronounceable) name. They aren't fans of hers either.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q1m-8npkJ4

LLAP
J:D


Post 18

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 5:58pmSanction this postReply
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There mere fact that someone's name is Albanian is no reason for insults. Try saying "The squirrel's strengths" three times fast.

Ted

Post 19

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 3:53amSanction this postReply
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I just learned of, and watched, the debate this week. The thing that surprised me the most is Hitchens's avoidance of Sharpton's repeated question on how one could possibly explain the universe independently of the supernatural. Although a thorough answer might be better suited for a science classroom than a live debate, here's a high-level overview that I think would have worked (and if any astronomers out there spot any errors in my summary, please let me know!):

 

PRE-BIG BANG: Because the evidence from physics informs us that neither mass nor energy can be created or destroyed (although both can be changed to different forms of mass & energy, and energy can be converted to mass, and mass to energy), this suggests that the universe's mass & energy must have always existed.

 

THE BIG BANG: Some 13.7 billion years ago, the universe was made up of pure energy—photons and other massless or nearly massless particles, such as neutrinos—and was unimaginably dense and hot. With what we call the Big Bang, the universe began its current expansion (whether this was the universe's first expansion, or whether it has expanded and collapsed zillions of times, or whether we exist in just one of many universes, we don't know). As the universe expanded it became less dense and cool enough for electrons & protons & neutrons to hold together to form hydrogen atoms. While the universe was still fairly dense, some of the hydrogen fused into helium and trace amounts of other light elements. 

 

THE GALAXIES, SOLAR SYSTEMS, & PLANETS: As the universe continued to expand, matter was distributed unevenly, and heat & gravitational attraction caused hydrogen and helium gas to clump together, and the clumps formed stars and galaxies. Stars are "on fire" because the temperature and pressure in a star's core causes internal nuclear reactions as hydrogen is fused into helium. Once a star's hydrogen is used up, the helium begins fusing, and the subsequent fusions create the heavier elements, such as carbon, iron, nickel, silicon, and zinc. Once the star exhausts its fuel supply, it collapses upon itself and explodes, and the explosion itself produces additional heavy elements. The clouds of gas and dust dispersed by the exploding star eventually turn into other stars and planets. (Our particular star, the Sun, was formed about five billion years ago, and has about another five billion years to go before it burns out of fuel. Our planet is about four and half billion years old.) 

 

FINAL POINT ON THE "UNCAUSED CAUSE" ARGUMENT: which is more likely—that something as simple as pure energy could exist without a creator, or a massively infinitely complex & unevolved deity?

 

Todd Allen Gates, author of Dialogue with a Christian Proselytizer



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