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Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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I wonder if the people on this list who believe in taxes, because without them we can't trust enough people to support defense spending, also believe in the draft, because without it we can't trust enough people to join the military.

If we have no right to our money, because they government needs it to defend the country, then do have a right to our labor (not to mention our very lives), if the government needs it to defend the country?

- Bill

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Post 1

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Draftees don't make good soldiers. It's pretty much a non-issue in today's U.S. military. Ask our soldiers who have volunteered their service and they will tell you they don't trust draftees to look after their backs in a firefight. With an immense arsenal of nuclear ICBMs, I can't understand why anyone would entertain the notion of a military draft, if a war gets to that point where it's so bad that a shortage of volunteers presents itself, dropping several nuclear warheads on the enemy is enough to squash any idea of a draft. It's not just a moral issue it is an empirical issue. Drafts don't work and talks of them are better left to the rationalists.

Post 2

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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The draft would never fly again as it did in yesteryear. I would wager that you would see an even greater protest against it now, if they tried to re-instate it, then there was during the Vietnam era.

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Post 3

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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The irony of the whole re-instatement of the draft thing is is that the major backers of bringing back the the draft are those who fought most vehemently against it in the 60's; the liberals. I can remember registering for selective service when I was 18, I wasn't even aware of Objectivism other than having read 'Anthem' when I was 16, I knew that my rights as a freeman were being violated.

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Post 4

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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Seconding Erik:

The draft is not coming back.  Wage/price controls are not coming back.  The domestic draft is not going to happen.  Life is hard enough with real issues, without worrying about imaginary ones.  Consequently I doubt that you could accurately call this guy "influential."


Post 5

Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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"I wonder if the people on this list who believe in taxes, because without them we can't trust enough people to support defense spending, also believe in the draft, because without it we can't trust enough people to join the military."

There are people on this list who believe in [coercive] taxes?

Astounding. Her casual attitude toward taxation was one of Rand's few, but more obvious errors. She didn't give enough weight to the fact that taxation provides the means for the thousands of things she (and the rest of us) fought (and fight) against.

(Although, not to distort her view, she did say she was against coercive taxation, simply that it would not be the first thing she'd change, but one of the last. Perhaps she was concerned about the possibility of anarchy if they were removed too quickly.)



Post 6

Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Peter Reidy wrote:

> The draft is not coming back. Wage/price controls are not coming back. The domestic draft is not going to happen.
> Life is hard enough with real issues, without worrying about imaginary ones.

Peter:

I wish I shared your optimism regarding these issues, but I don't. Fear is a powerful motivator for most people and it can trump rational thought. Look how quickly we abandoned a significant number of personal rights and governmental safeguards with the Homeland Security Act in the wake of 9/11. I am sure that it would only take another large scale attack on American soil to quickly cause the reinstatement of the draft and the imposition of other draconian measures - and I bet there would be very little organized public opposition.

Regards,
--
Jeff
(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 8/12, 10:27am)


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Post 7

Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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A Few Good Men

Volunteering for the military is like homosexuality - it may be hard to believe, but some people enjoy it.

If you own land, and are unwilling to pay property taxes, who will protect you from invasion, foreign or domestic? Property is a political institution. The American Indians didn't pay taxes, see where that got them? And one always has the Russian alternative. Few people there pay taxes, but 80% of business pay protection money, and those who protest the Russian system inherit little plots, six feet deep. If you don't want to pay taxes to protect overseas shipping, to whom do you complain when your imports are pirated on route? Sure, we can try a lottery or try selling of public lands or even taxing the airwaves or coal mines and other limited common resources. Maybe a tax on court-enforceable contracts will prove a workable solution. But this is a premature non-issue in search of a disagreement. This continued fantasy of no taxation as opposed to a reasonable accommodation to an unregulated economy with minimal taxes amounts to opposing the good as not good enough.

The comparison of minimal taxation based on the property protected is not comparable to the military draft. The military itself opposes the draft. Have you ever heard of any other government agency opposing an appropriation? The issue is brought up by buffoons like Charlie Rangel in order to make the military unpopular. As for this Bush Advisor, is anyone surprised that the press would want to spread the word about the foolish opinion of one person "advising" the president. Wilson began the draft against the military's wishes and Nixon ended it and the Vietnam War with their agreement.

Everyone should be willing to pay minimal taxes commensurate with the property that they have that needs protection. The draft is an unconscionable complete and total abrogation of the rights of a limited class of person which didn't even serve its purpose in the day of cannon-fodder armies. There has never, except for the Vietnam War, been a shortage of volunteers. Just like some people find joy in homosexuality, others actually enjoy serving in the military. Just because some people can't imagine anything so perverse as volunteering in a just war doesn't mean that millions of people wouldn't. I'm sure it's hard to believe, but I even know some men who've volunteered to serve, and I have even slept with a few of them! If there really were a shortage of volunteers for a just war, we could always allow immigrants entrance and citizenship for service and to allow homosexuals to serve openly. I doubt it would ever come to that.

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/12, 11:39pm)


Post 8

Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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The useful idiots in Washington might try to reinstate the draft if another large scale attack on America were to happen, however that's Washington, it just wouldn't fly for the rest of America. Just the ability to enforce it would be nigh impossible.

Post 9

Monday, August 13, 2007 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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non-citizens do already join the military.

Post 10

Monday, August 13, 2007 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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we could always allow immigrants entrance and citizenship for service and to allow homosexuals to serve openly. I doubt it would ever come to that.
Funny you mention it, Ted...there are actually already immigrants in the service and the fastest way to get someone their citizenship is through military channels.  It's a de facto gift of service.  Seriously, when I was taking my unit through deployment training, I got someone their citizenship is 45 days.  Not a joke...a few forms and a raised right hand and he was an American citizen at 40 years old.

Also, trust me when I tell you, there are more and more of us here in uniform, and among the citizenry, who don't particularly have a problem with homosexuals openly serving.


Post 11

Monday, August 13, 2007 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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I Doubt it Would Ever Come to That

I do know about both immigrants and homos in the military. Most of the military death notices here in NYC come with the added notice that the person was posthumously awarded citizenship. I have friends in the military who know of my sexuality and none of them have problems with the issue per se. (It is the women who seem to have the most problems with unwanted advances.) I myself could have passed and joined before 9-11 had I been interested. But due to some surgeries after 9-11 and that I'm pushing the big four-oh I think I'd be 4F. In any case, my specialty would be linguistics, and I was a bit miffed at the stupidity during the early war that someone bothered to notice that the linguists tend toward "alternate lifestyles."

My statement above that "I doubt it would ever come to that" was meant as ironic. What I meant was there will always be enough volunteers that "drastic" measures such as "allowing" homos to serve would ever be "necessary." Regarding immigrants, I meant that we could increase the entrance quota of immigrants to increase recruits. And again, when Iran sets off a nuke there isn't going to be any problem with recruiting in this country - except for the fact that a lot of our citizens may volunteer for the Israeli Military.

Ted Keer

Post 12

Monday, August 13, 2007 - 8:26pmSanction this postReply
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"Slavery an Option" on Farm Hand Shortage

So it turns out that it was the "War Czar" who caused this tempest in a teapot. He forgot not to be diplomatic and, when asked about the draft, reverted to "all options are on the table" mode. Given the current problems caused to growers who can't find the labor to pick their crops, I have to wonder, would he have said chattel slavery is "still open for debate" if he'd been asked the question?

And a "War Czar" who doesn't know that NPR is the enemy?

From the Pentagon:

By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Aug. 13, 2007 – The all-volunteer military force is serving the nation well, and no one in the Pentagon is considering a return to a military draft, a Defense Department official said today.
“There is absolutely no consideration being given to reinstituting a draft,”
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said today during a morning meeting with reporters.

Whitman said the current all-volunteer force is doing the job, and doing it well.

“The all-volunteer force has surpassed all of the expectations of its founders,” Whitman said. “The volunteer force is more experienced, more motivated to serve and reenlist. It’s more educated, has a higher aptitude, and all of that means a higher performance and increased readiness.”

I really had to look hard to find this. A search on Google News turns up hundreds of articles worldwide saying that this proves America has lost the war. ABC only quoted the denial, not the praise of a volunteer force.

The "War Czar" needs to fall on his sword.

Ted Keer


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Post 13

Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote,
If you own land, and are unwilling to pay property taxes, who will protect you from invasion, foreign or domestic?
The question is who will protect you from invasion by your very own government when it has the right to expropriate your property in order to protect you from having it expropriated? You talk of being "unwilling" to pay property taxes, as if they were voluntary and as if you could be "unwilling" to pay them. But, of course, they're not voluntary, and you can't be "unwilling" to pay them; you are forced to pay them. Taxes are a form of armed robbery by the greatest thief this country has ever known -- its very own government.
Property is a political institution. The American Indians didn't pay taxes, see where that got them?
Yeah, right; the reason the American Indians were conquered by the white settlers is that they weren't robbed by other Indians and forced to subsidize their own defense! Brilliant!
And one always has the Russian alternative. Few people there pay taxes, but 80% of business pay protection money, and those who protest the Russian system inherit little plots, six feet deep. If you don't want to pay taxes to protect overseas shipping, to whom do you complain when your imports are pirated on route?
And what's wrong with piracy, Ted? Is it that piracy takes people's property without their consent? And what do you think taxes do? They take people's property without their consent. So in taxing people to protect them from piracy, you are stealing people's property in order to prevent their property from being stolen. No contradiction there, right?
Sure, we can try a lottery or try selling of public lands or even taxing the airwaves or coal mines and other limited common resources.
Taxing the airwaves or coal mines as an alternative to property taxes? How is that any better?
Maybe a tax on court-enforceable contracts will prove a workable solution.
Are you referring to Rand's proposal? What she proposed was not a tax, but a voluntary payment in exchange for having your contracts enforced. To call it a "tax" is to obliterate the distinction between choice and force -- voluntary payment and compulsory payment -- money freely given and money coercively extorted -- which is a distinction that is evidently lost on those who defend taxes as a legitimate function of government.
But this is a premature non-issue in search of a disagreement.
A premature non-issue in search of a disagreement?? Are you serious?! Taxation is grand theft on a grand scale, and is responsible for virtually all the evils of the welfare and warfare state. To call it "a premature non-issue in search of a disagreement" reflects a failure to understand what Objectivism stands for, which is respect for individual rights.
This continued fantasy of no taxation as opposed to a reasonable accommodation to an unregulated economy with minimal taxes amounts to opposing the good as not good enough.
How do you think we got to the stage at which we are now being robbed of almost half our income to support the kind of government programs that should never have existed to begin with? We got here precisely because we gave the government the power to tax our income and our property -- to take our money without our consent. The only way to prevent this sort of thing from happening is not to give the government that power in the first place. If you give it the power to steal your money, then on what grounds do you complain that it is stealing "too much"? You've already conceded the principle that it has the right to determine what is done with your property -- that in any disagreement between you and the government over how to spend your money, it is the government that has the final say. Good luck trying to persuade it to respect your rights when you've already conceded that it has the right to violate them!

- Bill

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Post 14

Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 5:05amSanction this postReply
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Ted Keer, I agree with your post #7 concerning the draft and taxes on land. I wrote an essay in the late 80's that addresses the justice of the latter and of the institution of government. I will try to put a shortened version of that essay in the pipeline here.

At the end of the 70's and into the early 80's, my friends and I were doing everything we could in terms of street demonstrations and letter writing to get Congress to not pass the Draft Registration law. If we could have stopped that, young people today would have an additional layer of security against reinstatement of the draft.

I should mention that the place in which Ayn Rand gave her spirited and reasoned arguments for the abolition of the draft was in the essay "The Wreckage of the Consensus" which is available in the collection Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. Steven Druckenmiller, I was delighted to hear the information you provided in #10. Thank you for serving in the defense of our country.

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Post 15

Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 5:26pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen, Bill:

Stephen, thanks for your comments.

Bill, yes, I repeat my "premature non-issue in search of a disagreement" statement within this context: a widespread cultural realignment based on a respect for reason and individual rights is a pre-requisite to any discussion of the final reforms of a truly voluntary state.

In Butziger's thread on the terrible evils of jury duty, I suggested that worrying about getting a jury summons while the government consumes well over 50% of our GDP in taxes and other burdens was a bit misguided. You should read his response, which managed to say that taxes ["a paltry tax on tea"] didn't matter when people were literally being enslaved into serving on juries.

This draft thread itself was [based on a media] red herring begun by a dimwitted bureaucrat who allowed himself to become a tool of the left to belittle the Administration. He thought he was speaking diplomatically by "leaving all options open." As I said, would he have said regarding a farm labor shortage that all options are still on the table - including reinstating slavery?

Once we get rid of government spending on social programs, and repeal all inappropriate government regulations, then I will be happy to discuss whether one should call charges paid to ensure the government enforcement of contracts taxes or fees.

Ted Keer


(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/23, 12:19pm)


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Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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I agree 100% with Ted.

Post 17

Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Initially, you said that taxes were justified to protect people's property from being stolen. I pointed out that stealing people's property to protect it from being stolen is a contradiction in terms.

Now you say that you won't discuss the morality of taxation until we eliminate spending on social programs. How do you think spending on social programs is funded? It is funded by looting the American taxpayer. If there were no taxes -- no looting of Americans to support it -- then you wouldn't be forced to subsidize it.

You don't object to voluntary charity do you? Well, if there were no taxes, then all charity would be voluntary, and the kind of welfare you object to would no longer be an issue.

- Bill


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Post 18

Friday, August 24, 2007 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
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Bill:

I pointed out that stealing people's property to protect it from being stolen is a contradiction in terms.


I can buy the argument that a government should be voluntarily funded as otherwise the use of force is used to make you pay. But morally equating compulsory taxation for maintaining a funded police force and an Army as the same as a criminal breaking into your garage and stealing your car is incorrect. While the former you do have a limited say through litigation and vote, and through the former you receive a service (police and military protection) the latter you get neither a limited choice of how your money should be used (you get none, your car is stolen and you have no say in the matter) nor given any service in return (the criminal doesn't wax the car, fill it up with gas, change the oil and return it to you a week later).

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Post 19

Friday, August 24, 2007 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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Another key difference is that the funding for Police, Courts, Military = applicable to every citizen.  Whereas, the funding of the XYZ Housing project only benefits the people who live there and the various parasites who run it (actually, the people who live there receive a dubious benefit at that).  The same applies to area-specific funding, schools, etc.  However, the very existence of a basic "watchdog" government is demonstrably and directly to everyone's benefit.  The other crap that Ted speaks of is all stuff that:
1)  We know the free market does better (and we don't know it does the above better, in fact, it can't as we have discussed against the anarchos)
2)  Is a specific benefit to some, at a cost to others

Therefore it is NOT the same thing at all, and can be easily and clearly DEFINED.  Just because it was eventually ignored through a perversion of the commerce clause does not mean it needs to be that way.  The States too probably need similar containment, as they could constitutionally still do a lot, and that helps no better than the Feds doing it.


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