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Post 20

Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
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I pointed out that stealing people's property to protect it from being stolen is a contradiction in terms.

John replied,
I can buy the argument that a government should be voluntarily funded as otherwise the use of force is used to make you pay. But morally equating compulsory taxation for maintaining a funded police force and an Army as the same as a criminal breaking into your garage and stealing your car is incorrect. While the former you do have a limited say through litigation and vote...
What kind of choice is that? That's like saying that if a majority of people in your neighborhood vote to steal half your income, you had a limited say, because you were allowed to vote against it, or that if a majority of Americans vote to enslave blacks, the blacks had a limited say, because they were allowed to vote against it. If you are forced to take an action, regardless of whether or not it was decided in a free election, you have NO say in the action, period. Democracy is not freedom.
...and through the former you receive a service (police and military protection) the latter you get neither a limited choice of how your money should be used (you get none, your car is stolen and you have no say in the matter) nor given any service in return (the criminal doesn't wax the car, fill it up with gas, change the oil and return it to you a week later).
And when the government taxes your income for social security that's not robbery either, because you get some of it back when you retire. Yeah, right.

John, let me ask you this: Suppose that, while you're on vacation and without your knowing it, I mow your lawn, trim your bushes and paint your house. Then when you return, I demand payment of an arbitrary sum at the point of a gun. That's not robbery, right? I shouldn't be arrested for extortion. Oh no, I should be lauded for the landscaping and maintenance services I performed, and you should be happy to pay me, because, after all, you got something in exchange for the money that you were forced to give me.

Do you think, for one minute, that the courts would side with me on this, and rule that I had a perfect right to do this -- that this was not robbery, because you got something in exchange for it -- and that you should be thankful that I performed these wonderful services for you? No, they would rule that I committed a felony? Why? Because you didn't consent to the arrangement. You didn't agree to have me perform these services in exchange for an agreed upon price.

Robbery with unconsented to "compensation" is still robbery. One of the key aspects of Objectivism that Rand stressed is the importance of principles -- of being able to see the essential principle behind the extraneous details. It is astonishing how little respect people have for principled behavior today. "Pro-choice" feminists argue for the right to abortion, but when it comes to being pro-choice on how to spend your own money, then it's a different story. Conservatives complain about government intervention in the economy, but when it comes to government intervention on behalf of religion, then it's a different story.

If Objectivists have any measurable impact on this culture, let it be a moral one that involves fidelity to principle in the realm of public policy and personal conduct.

- Bill

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Post 21

Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivism is a Philosophy for Living on Earth

One can talk about ending all non-voluntary taxation as much as one likes, and one can even advocate instituting voluntary means of government revenue now such as lotteries which do already exist. But I am not interested in discussing this matter as one that is more important than ending improper spending activities by the government. Doing so is at best, putting the horse before the cart and at worst ends up as a form of Libertarian party anarcho-capitalist mental self-abuse best left to non-objectivist fora.

Rand was no idiot. Had she seen totally voluntary taxation as such an important or imminent development, she could have studied the idea and contributed a lot more on the notion than she did. Rand was essentially a free-market minimalist, and she expressed her contempt repeatedly for those who advocate private governments or utopian tax reforms or protests and the non-initiation of force as if they were contextless absolutes or the be-all and end-all of contemporary politics.

Give me a 10% flat tax or the equivalent and restrict all government spending to its proper functions, and we'll have decades of boom and prosperity in which to find ways to deal with other priorities. Objectivism is a philosophy for living on earth, and humans have priorities, and certain reforms require that other reforms precede them. There is no draft. The press is free. Emigration is possible. Let's worry about defending ourselves, lowering taxes, holding back the tides of statism, and teaching Objectivism. Then we'll be in a fine position to go from a sterile Platonic esoteric discussion of the perfect state (which only makes us look like ivory-tower nutjobs with crazy priorities) to explain in Objectivist terms to an educated populace how to move forward.

It is earlier than we think.

Ted Keer



(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/25, 5:02pm)


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Post 22

Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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Since  the issue of principles is being raised here, thought a moment's reflection of the virtue of integrity is in  order ----------

Virtues are the application of values.... the values of reason, purpose and self-esteem are logical and uncontroversial on the surface - but applying them, putting them into practice, translating them into action, often brings one into conflict with view of others... the virtue of integrity is the steadfast adherence to those values even in the face of opposition.... maintaining one's integrity is essential to acjieving objective vlues and flourishing..... it is, in effect, loyalty to rational principles.... like all virtues, the need for integrity is grounded in ceretain basic facts..... "..it is the recognition of the fact that you cannot fake your consciousness, just as honesty is the recognition of the fact that you cannot fake existence - that man is an indivisible entity, an integrated unit of two attributes: of matter and consciousness, and that he may permit no breach between body and mind, between action and thought, between his life and his convictions - that, like a judge impervious to public opinion, he may not sacrifice his convictions to the wishes of others, be it the whole of mankind shouting pleas or threats against him - that courage and confidence are practical necessities, that courage is the practical form of being true to existence, of being true to truth, and confidence is the practical form of being true to one's own consciousness..." [Rand].... integrity is a critical aspect of rationality - one cannot maintain rationality without it.... for one thing, integrity demands that one HAS principles - one cannot be loyal to one's convictions if one does not have any... thus integrity demands a conscious effort to identifying those principles that should guide a person's life - and rationality, of course, is the guide to this effort....
 
From my blog, The Spiritual Visualizer....
 
 

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/25, 3:37pm)


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Post 23

Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivism is a Philosophy for Living on Earth

One can talk about ending all non-voluntary taxation as much as one likes, and one can even advocate instituting voluntary means of government revenue now such as lotteries which do already exist.
Lotteries are at best a marginal form of voluntary government financing; far better methods exist, such as the one that Rand proposed in her article "Government Financing in a Free Society."
But I am not interested in discussing this matter as one that is more important than ending improper spending activities by the government.
Right. As a political strategy for reducing the size of government spending, one has a better chance of reducing public assistance and other forms of welfare entitlements than of eliminating taxation. The point I was making is simply that taxation is a self-contradictory violation of individual rights and, therefore, of the Objectivist politics, even if it's elimination is the last step on the way to a fully free society. Others here have argued that taxation is justified, because voluntary financing is impractical and would never work. It is that particular view that I was challenging as inconsistent with Objectivism and as self-contradictory nonsense.
Doing so is at best, putting the horse before the cart...
Which is exactly where the horse belongs -- before the cart! ;-)
...and at worst ends up as a form of Libertarian party anarcho-capitalist mental self-abuse best left to non-objectivist fora.
Well, if one is an advocate of Objectivism, then since voluntary government financing is one of its principles, it behooves one to have a sound defense of that principle -- if, that is, one expects to be taken seriously.
Rand was no idiot. Had she seen totally voluntary taxation as such an important or imminent development, she could have studied the idea and contributed a lot more on the notion than she did.
The reason that she didn't contribute more to the subject is that she felt that other aspects of Objectivism, like its epistemology, deserved greater attention. However, she did address the issue by writing an essay on one possible method of voluntary financing, and she did clearly state that voluntary financing was required by a respect for individual rights. On a radio program back in 1969, she was asked, "Do you consider the government a thief?", she replied, "In one sense, yes. To the question, 'Should the government have the power to tax?," I'd answer, 'No, all taxation should be voluntary.'" However, she felt that a more detailed treatment of the issue was best left to the specialized discipline of legal philosophy.
Rand was essentially a free-market minimalist...
"A free-market minimalist" does not adequately describe her political theory; it's too vague a description. Conservatives would describe themselves in similar terms.
...and she expressed her contempt repeatedly for those who advocate private governments...
Yes, but that's because private governments are not part of the Objectivist political theory.
...or utopian tax reforms or protests...
Where did she inveigh against utopian tax reforms or protests? As far as I'm aware, she said nothing on the issue.
and the non-initiation of force as if they were contextless absolutes or the be-all and end-all of politics.
On the contrary, she was very clear that the principle of individual rights stood as an absolute and inviolable bulwark against the initiation of force by the government against its own citizens.
Give me a 10% flat tax or the equivalent and restrict all government spending to its proper functions, and we'll have decades of boom and prosperity in which to find ways to deal with other priorities.
Well, you'd have to get rid of central banking as well, and adopt a privately based commodity money to avoid the repeated bouts of inflation and recession that characterize the business cycle.
Objectivism is a philosophy for living on earth, and humans have priorities, and certain reforms require that other reforms precede them.
I agree.
There is no draft. The press is free. Emigration is possible. Let's worry about defending ourselves, lowering taxes, holding back the tides of statism, and teaching Objectivism.
Again, I agree.
Then we'll be in a fine position to go from a sterile Platonic esoteric discussion of the perfect state (which only makes us look like ivory-tower nutjobs with crazy priorities) to explain in Objectivist terms to an educated populace how to move forward.
I wouldn't describe a discussion or presentation of the Objectivist political theory as "ivory tower" or as involving "crazy priorities." You have to know where you're going, if you're ever going to get there. And your ultimate political goals have to make sense, if you want to attract people to your philosophy.

- Bill


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Post 24

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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One more thing: The PURPOSE of a government is the protection and defense of individual rights -- the protection and defense of its citizens against the initiation of force and fraud. The government cannot therefore VIOLATE those selfsame rights for the sake of protecting them without contradicting THE VERY REASON FOR ITS EXISTENCE!!!

Therefore, robbing people of their money in order to protect and defend their rights isn't simply wrong because it violates rights (although it does that), nor is it wrong simply because it contradicts the purpose for which the taxes are being levied (although it does that); it is wrong for a far more serious and fundamental reason. It is wrong because it betrays the very purpose for the government's existence in the first place! In that respect, it is even worse than the thieves against whom it offers its protection.

Quoting Thomas Jefferson in The Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable rights, that among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . ."

Got it?! Governments are instituted among men TO SECURE these rights, not to violate them!!!

- Bill

Post 25

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, is minarchism an unacceptible stage on the way to voluntarism?

If you do not accept that government which was instituted after the war which the Declaration justified, are you going to declare your own revolution?

You got me on the horse before the cart. I hope no one was confused.

Ted



(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/29, 3:44pm)


Post 26

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 6:28amSanction this postReply
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I can see taxation dropping down, and even becoming voluntary, as technology progresses and more of the world leaves barbarism and enters the modern era.  This is going to take some significant amount of time, however.  We might get the majority of the world in some semblence of working order by 2100, and we will need another century to start to see socialist ideas go away, and by then we may have technology that protects us individually more effectively, so security risks, both macro and micro, may drop below a certain threshhold, but this is very speculative.  I can see it possible, but it seems utopian right now.

Post 27

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
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You don't think the singularity is near then, huh.......[re - Kurzweil]

Post 28

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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So, you admit it, Kurt! Your willing to put up with evul, pure evul! In lessening amounts, until it disappears at long last. Welcome, to the dark side

Post 29

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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Nope that singularity stuff is nonsense, but the fact is we cannot exactly predict the future or in most cases even get close.  Thing is, I do see the actual cultural state of human nature as holding us back.  There will not be any way to progress to that without getting more of the world out of the dark ages, unless we find an economic means of interstellar travel.  In that case, we have a good shot of running off and founding a whole new planet as Galt's Gulch, now would that not be magnificent?

Post 30

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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It is fine and well to accept the baby steps towards a voluntary society, but to argue for anything other than the immediate implementation of such a society, is to implicitly sanction the evil which it opposes.

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Post 31

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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It is fine and well to accept the baby steps towards a voluntary society, but to argue for anything other than the immediate implementation of such a society, is to implicitly sanction the evil which it opposes.

Sorry, but have to disagree here - the key offending word is 'immediate' ......  the reason - any change can only peacefully come about when the others come to an agreement with you on the issues - that is, they have reached the point of understanding and concurring with the conclusion... until then, there will be, of necessity, resistance, and - for that other party - good reason of their own, namely that they do not understand or see the justice of it...


Post 32

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Robert, and I believe that this was Rand's explicit position. Jonathan, it wouldn't hurt to outline in detail what we want, and what has to come before what to implement our goals, would it?

The perfect example - do you expect your newborn to do calculus now, or have a platinum Visa card?

Ted

Post 33

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, good points by both, although I haven't fully digested them yet, and probably won't get a chance till tomorrow. In the meantime, consider the example of an abolitionist in the mid 19th century: to call for the abolition of slavery in some states would be to implicitly sanction the practice in the remaining states.Of course, given the chance it would be right to support the abolition in these specific states, provided you still argued for universal abolition. I did not really consider my statement to be controversial, and would liken it to Rand's argument on accepting public aid (ie, it ok, as long as you are against it). Make more sense?

Post 34

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 10:52pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, is minarchism an unacceptible stage on the way to voluntarism?
Who told you I was against minarchism? I'm not an anarchist -- at least not in the sense of being an anarcho-capitalist. But if you meant to ask, is coercive governmental intervention an unacceptable stage on the way to voluntarism?, then I would say, yes, coercive governmental intervention is always unacceptable. But you're not going to change the system overnight, so you do the best you can; you work for incremental decreases in governmental intervention until you reach the stage of voluntarism.
If you do not accept that government which was instituted after the war which the Declaration justified, are you going to declare your own revolution?
No, because I wouldn't be able to achieve a revolution, so what would be the point of "declaring" one? Besides, a revolution at this stage would do more harm than good, even it were achievable, which it isn't. The only time that a revolution should be considered is if we collapse into a dictatorship, with one-party rule, convictions without trial or with mock trials, nationalization of industry and government censorship. Then violent revolution becomes the only recourse, but if there is still a way to change the system through education and the democratic process, revolution is ill advised.

- Bill

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