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Friday, January 4, 2008 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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Say what?! I'm going to confirm this myself.

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Post 1

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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Who's appeasing whom in your view?

Post 2

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Jeff Perren writes:

> Who's appeasing whom in your view?

Good point. I was referring to TAS appeasing Perigo, but when you think about it, given the full history of events, why would Perigo ever agree to this? I can only surmise that he feels that he has won some sort of victory - and considering what he has said and continues to say about TAS*, I would agree that he has.

Regards,
--
Jeff

* He calls them "The KASSless Society" in in the referenced link.

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Post 3

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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With respect, I wasn't making a point, just asking a question to get clarification.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. Perigo is a professional speaker, broadcaster, and commentator. TAS is trying to gather an audience and deliver a certain message. (What message is up for interpretation, of course.)

If TAS wants to contract for his services, I really don't see any kind of immorality on anyone's part here. Perigo's jibes are well known. If they don't bother the principals of TAS, I don't see why anyone else should get excited about the announcement.

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Post 4

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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so the drunk skunks amongst us..  just remember to stay out of where he sprays...;-)

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Post 5

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff Perren writes:

> If TAS wants to contract for his services, I really don't see any kind of immorality on
> anyone's part here. Perigo's jibes are well known. If they don't bother the principals of
> TAS, I don't see why anyone else should get excited about the announcement.

Jeff:

I am not implying that there are any seriously immoral acts here. Nor am I concerned with issues of "sanction". My only point has to do with simple self-respect on the part of TAS. I'm all for mending fences within the Objectivist community, but what can we reasonably expect from Lyndsay? I think he has shown his true self time and time again and he has done nothing to indicate a change of heart. Consequently, I think this action of inviting him to speak goes well beyond bad judgment, and does represent something worthy of our concern. The excitement some of us are exhibiting is more a reaction of disappointment at TAS than any deep concern over Perigo, someone whom I have written off as of no value to me. It is a mystery to me as to what value TAS sees in including him in their program.

Regards,
--
The other Jeff

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Post 6

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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"...I think this action of inviting him to speak goes well beyond bad judgment."

And into what?

"It is a mystery to me as to what value TAS sees in including him in their program."

As I tried to suggest earlier, TAS is trying to fill seats. I assume they believe Mr. Perigo will help do that. It's a mystery to me why anyone would care one way or the other. I'm not trying to be hostile here; I honestly don't get it.






(Edited by Jeff Perren on 1/04, 2:35pm)


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Post 7

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff Perren wrote:

> TAS is trying to fill seats. I assume they believe Mr. Perigo will help do that.

That may well be, but if it turns out to be the case, I don't think it is an appropriate goal for an organization of this type.

It seems to me that TAS should be concerned with spreading an understanding and appreciation of the philosophy and convincing people to put the principles into practice in their daily lives. With that goal in mind, I encourage them to explore every possible means to "fill seats", making their enterprise both effective and profitable. However, I do not believe that Lindsay has anything to offer in pursuit of that goal. I further believe that his presence will undermine that goal and, ultimately, alienate rather than convince people of the efficacy of Objectivism. That is certainly the effect he has had on me and many others.

Philosophy can and should be made as entertaining as possible so as to reach the widest audience, but it is the knowledge, not the entertainment, that must be the goal. Lindsay's appearance would be more appropriate for a circus. He is certainly not my idea of a good example of Objectivism in practice, and I cringe to think that he will, in some way, be presented as such simply by his presence at the summer conference. This is why I react so strongly to this recent news.

And just to be clear, I have no quarrel with Jeff and his observations. Like many discussion on ROR, we are not so much in disagreement on basic principles as simply approaching the subject from two different directions and points of focus.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 8

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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If they're looking to fill seats, perhaps I should inquire of giving a speech on "The Artist as Spiritual Visualizer".....

Post 9

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

I appreciate your respectful reply.

But you've only given half an answer. I gather you object to Perigo's appearance because of his style. Ok, fine. But it's not like the New York Times is going to send a representative to the TAS Summer Seminar and report that unsavory characters are speaking from an Objectivist forum and therefore the philosophy must be suspect, etc.

These days there are so many diverse views on what Objectivism entails -- most of them incorrect, in my judgment -- that I can't see any big harm in Perigo giving his. I trust people to be able to judge whether they're consistent with Rand's, no more nor less well than they would those of anyone else, including Rand herself.

In fact, though I've never attended a Summer Seminar, judging by the names and abstracts of many of those who have spoken in the past, Perigo would be a huge jump in quality. Whatever his personal behavior, he understands -- and can convey to others well -- applications of Objectivism and evaluate many of the implications correctly.

By the way, I can believe that he may have alienated you, but I find it hard to accept that he could possibly have altered your view of the philosophy's efficacy one way or the other. You're far too sharp and independent minded for that to have happened.

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 1/04, 3:30pm)


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Post 10

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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One of Perigo’s topics will be “Objectivism’s Worst Enemy: Objectivists”—a topic about which he should be an expert, since he is a peculiarly sickening example.  (Probably the best example.)

 

If I did not already consider The Atlas Society unprincipled and detrimental to the future of Objectivism, this would be sufficient evidence for refusing any further support.  It is hard to believe that David Kelley would stoop to this level.  I am utterly astonished.  This is not only a direct slap in the faces of Barbara Branden and Nathaniel Branden, who have given TAS major credibility through their past appearances.  It is an affront to minimally acceptable standards of human decency, which Perigo typically flaunts, claiming Randesque prerogative.

 

James Valiant (erstwhile Branden character assassin and Perigo bosom buddy) must be sifting through his mail, wondering what could have happened to his invitation.

 

I am reminded of what Ayn Rand said about Lyndon Johnson (I am obviously paraphrasing here): An organization that tries to be all things to all people, ends up being nothing to anyone.

 

 


Post 11

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
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You should quote the rest: "This will be about the pan-factional error of intrinsicism and religiosity generally."

Considering how rampant it is, it's hard not to be sympathetic. His personal flaws aside, this is most definitely not an error Perigo makes habitually.

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Post 12

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Both Roger Bissell and Philip Coates were turned down.  Bissell's rejection letter was so far off base as to suggest evidence of ulterior motives.  And I am not even involved, really.  But it is clear to anyone who can read between the lines that the decision and the reasons for it do not connect. 

The idea that these seminars "spread Objectivism" is downright laughable.  I participate actively in numismatics.  The ANA has 100+ years of experience "getting people interested."  Who shows up to conventions?  People who are already interested.  From 1999 to 2003, I did a lot of flying at small airports in Michigan and Ohio.  The local aviators put on a day at the airport to "get people interested."  Who shows up?  People who are already interested.  The only reason to go to "an Objectivist seminar" is to meet in person the Objectivists you have met online.

Speeches are for motivation and other kinds of communication that do not require deep or critical thought or reflection.  Even a well-constructed seminar can only introduce the ideas.  We are trained to read.  My validation of that is Andrew Wiles's "proof" of Fermat's Conjecture (FLT: Fermat's Last Theorem).  It took him three days and it was not long before the "lay" scientific press (NY Times, people like that) caught on that something big was happening.  But... but... but... the paper, while meeting wild applause was still submitted for peer review that resulted in (I believe) two years of hard work on his part to fix it.  And the reviews took about a year.  So, an Objectivists seminar can be valuable... but it is only a series of demonstrations, not proofs.

As for Lindsay Perigo, yes, he is colorful.  But, myself, I'd rather listen to Coates or Bissell both of whom I can expect to present something new, interesting and challenging that I surely never thought of.  With Lindsay, all you get a rousing speech about kicking ass to change the world.  Personally, for myself, I believe that freedom in an unfree world comes by getting out of the boxes you put yourself into: relationships, government, burning issues, .... Even before Harry Browne, back in the Libertarian Connection edited by Durk and Sandy, a writer called The Friendly Falcon invented the word SAVASS (save your own ass). 


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Post 13

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Perigo is a walking embodiment of intrinsicism in its most obvious and repugnant form: because he calls himself an Objectivist, he thinks he can get away with anything, context and consequences and reality be damned.

 

 

 


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Post 14

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 5:16pmSanction this postReply
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"Perigo is a walking embodiment of intrinsicism in its most obvious and repugnant form: because he calls himself an Objectivist, he thinks he can get away with anything, context and consequences and reality be damned."

Even if I accepted your characterization of Perigo, which I don't, wouldn't that be subjectivism?

Post 15

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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"It took him three days and it was not long before the "lay" scientific press (NY Times, people like that) caught on that something big was happening."

This is off the topic but just so no one misreads this...

Wiles spent years developing the proof. (Eight or ten as I recall, but it could have been longer.) I think you mean he gave a series of lectures on the subject presenting his proof over a three day period.

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Post 16

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 6:38pmSanction this postReply
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This news is hilarious to me, and I agree with everything Jeff Perren says about it.

Love him or hate him, Linz is a "take no prisoners" speaker and writer.  His presentation at this annual event will be a standing room only occasion. Bet me.  

This stuff is better than any daytime novella!

                                   ****** AS THE $ TURNS******

In our last episode, we left Bill Dwyer and Ed Thompson duking it out over free will. 

Meanwhile, back in the valley....

Will Linz admit to being a schmuck and apologize to Barbara?
How many times will his glass be raised?
Will Dennis Hardin ignite a $ on the front lawn of the Cato building?
Will Roger Bissell bring his trombone?
Will Phil Coates lighten up???? Only on the dance floor, my friends...


Post 17

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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And I thought the Republican and Democratic primary campaigns got ugly. :)

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Post 18

Friday, January 4, 2008 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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Even if I accepted your characterization of Perigo, which I don't, wouldn't that be subjectivism?

 

Although intrinsicism and subjectivism are obviously distinct, both tend to co-exist in the typical mystic’s mentality.  I regard Perigo’s approach to Objectivism as ultimately mystical—i.e., based more on emotion than thinking.

 

“…Philosophically, the mystic is usually an exponent of the intrinsic (revealed) school of epistemology….But, psychologically, the mystic is a subjectivist who uses intrinsicism as a means to claim the primacy of his consciousness over that of others…”

 (Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, p. 79)

 

From an ethical perspective, Perigo is an advocate of the Intrinsic Theory of the Good— the good is inherent in certain things as such, regardless of context and consequences (i.e., his deplorable behavior).

 

 


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Post 19

Saturday, January 5, 2008 - 2:29amSanction this postReply
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"Although intrinsicism and subjectivism are obviously distinct, both tend to co-exist in the typical mystic’s mentality."

I agree with this.


"From an ethical perspective, Perigo is an advocate of the Intrinsic Theory of the Good— the good is inherent in certain things as such..."

I won't take the time to gather quotes, but I think this is factually incorrect as a summary of his views. Quite the opposite. He has made that clear on numerous threads on SOLO Passion. The only possible exception I can see might be in the area of music, which is a hard subject to discuss in terms of context, objectivity, etc. Certainly with respect to his views on ethics and politics, this is empirically false. Can you provide any quotes that would support your assessment? Quotes of his views, not examples of his behavior.

But, apart from his behavior (of which I'm no fan), do you think his views -- a consistent advocacy of reason, rational self-interest, freedom, and Capitalism -- all as defined by Objectivism -- make him an unworthy selection as a speaker at a TAS conference? I.e. because he may not practice it properly, is it inappropriate for TAS to invite him to speak on Objectivism? I've rarely seen him take a position that I couldn't envision Rand herself advocating.



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