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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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I found the following, from 2006:


"When I look out into the nation (and not going towards), it definitely puts me in a secessionary kind of mood. I hardly recognize the leaders of our country as “my fellow Americans”—I don’t share their vision of how the world should be, I don’t share their values, I want to distance myself from them and hunker down among likeminded people in my local community waiting out this siege."

Under our current model, this seems kind of missing the target. Someone converts after tax federal dollars into this local currency at a discount, and spends those dollars locally. How does that impact federal taxation on the original taxed income?

Ditto the income reportable by the businesses that trade in the alternate currency.

I'm wondering how many people are using this currency believing that it somehow impacts federal taxation and the implied participation in the broader 'the' economy?

In that regard, it seems more of a symbolic 'secession' than a factual one. I understand how it highlights local circulation, and with the 5% discount, I understand how it might even promote local circulation, but I don't see any (legal) opportunity to avoid federal taxation on the resulting generated income, unless employers are actually paying unreported wages in BerkShares, and recording unreported income in BerkShares, and so on. But, that is no different than keeping a separate set of books and hiding it from the IRS.

This seems more a symbolic 'withdrawn consent', not a factual 'withdrawn consent.' Beyond 'support your local economy', I'm failing to see any significant broader impact.

Am I missing something about this local currency?



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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps if you paid people in a local currency, then you could claim that you don't have to pay any taxes on it, as no dollar income has been received.

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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Kurt:

You mean, literally, from the definition of 'a dollar?' Maybe. FICA/MEDI...

But things like 'fringe' benefits are federally income taxable, and are not strictly paid in dollars, but dollar equivalents. Private use of company car mileage, and so on. The IRS taxes that at some dollar equivalent value.

I'm really not sure, I can't imagine the IRS sitting still for this in the least. If an employer pays employees in the local currency, I'm sure that is still reportable as income. If there is a way to shelter/hide transactions in those currency both from the employers books and the employees records, then it avoids taxation, but I doubt that is anywhere near legal.

If there are no bank records, and if there are no payroll records, and if there are no accounting records, and all transactions are in physical units of 'BerkShares' leaving no other residue, then maybe it can be accomplished, but the same is true for federal dollars as the currency of exchange; it is called 'keeping two sets of books.' It's what the mob does. So, other than the discount angle, which on its face encourages local circulation, I don't see this other aspect having much impact, other than purely symbolically.

regards,
Fred



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Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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I have some experience at this.
http://www.michigancoinclub.org/Baybucks.htm

1. Kurt: as noted, you pay taxes on value, regardless of how you are paid.
That includes barter.

2. Fred: you are missing the point of local currency.  It has absolutely nothing to do with avoiding taxes.  That's your rightwing crypto conspiratorialism leaking out.  Local currency is designed to keep wealth local.  People trade among themselves on the theory that money spent closer to home benefits you sooner.  If you spent a FRN or use a charge card at a Big Box store, you benefit from the bargain, of course, and the supply chain all the way back to China benefits.  Your neighbor is still unemployed.

If you spent a Local Currency Note at a local participating creator of wealth -- healthcare, skilled trades, artisan, etc. -- the money cannot leave the locale.  If you participate as a wealth creator, someone comes to you with their LCN and so on. 

In Traverse City, the central organization is the Oryana Food Co-op, the largest employer in the counter-culture and the place where everyone shops.  About 100 wealth creators participate.  Right now about BB13,000 are in circulation.  I am going up there in a few weeks to gather data for an economics paper.

Not all local currencies are successful.  Ithaca Time Dollars is perhaps most famous.
During the Previous Gteat Depression, there were hundreds of these. 
Read here:
http://www.depressionscrip.com/
(I just covered these "Depression Scrips" in January for my ANA "Internet Connections" column because of the renewed interest.)


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Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 2:57amSanction this postReply
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A while back National Geographic had fairly straight forward article. In the periodical the subject of demographic value of currency was described in great detail. In the days of our country's adolescence domains such as San Francisco and Local Mining regions and also rail roads have been known to issue coupons of value to their employees in lieu of federal reserve notes.
 Back when my grand father was alive he let me look at some ration cuopond that were redeemable from the first and second world wars. I am vey proud of his astuteness at saving these documents.s for the value of thm today I doubt any one would appreciate their significance. Hopefully they are stillvalid pound for pound. Good talkin to ya Fred  


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Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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Local currency is nothing new.

The notes on this website have in common the fact that they picture "Spanish" (Mexico, Peru, etc.) money on the private notes of banks in the USA in the 1830s-1850s.
http://scoan.oldnote.org/
Spanish money was legal tender and often more widely known than federal coinage.
Follow the links by state to see how many banks there were back then, mostly independent.


Books like this have been published by collectors and others for several states. I have one for Michigan and another (autographed) for
Indiana. (This book was published by RM Smythe, well known dealer of historical fiduciary paper.) 



Singapore, Michigan.  I wrote the story, "Levi Loomis and the Bank of Singapore" for Loompanics, which produced it as a four-page comic.

To finance the Civil War, the federal government first taxed banks 10% of their profits, which destroyed many.  Based on gold, with fractional reserve tightly controlled by the free market, most banks survived on a thin margin. Many paid no interest on demand deposits.  Salmon P. Chase then allowed any bank to deposit $25,000 in gold with the US Treasury for which they would be paid Treasury notes against which they could issue their own local currencies.  This brought the banks many towns still know only as nameplates: First National... Second National... Hometown National....

These are National Bank Notes.  People collect them by names, places, etc., like towns named Boston that are not in Massachusetts, Manhattan, Kansas, etc.,


Although backed in Gold, some of these banks did fail. Mismanagement is always a risk with any business.  Many failed in the 1920s and 1930s (ahem).  Libertarian theorists blame the Federal Reserve, of course, for the moral failures of inept businessmen.

National Bank Note, First National Bank of San Francisco, 1890, $50 - Front
THE FIRST NATIONAL BANK OF SAN FRANCISCO

National Bank Note, Central National Bank, Illinois, 1872, $1
THE CENTRAL NATIONAL BANK OF CHICAGO
These two above are from the late 1800s.  The $100 above them is a 20th century issue.
 
Third National Bank of Columbus, Georgia. (1908)

   
Monstrosity National Bank of Richmond, Virginia
(Francon & Heyer Architects.)
(Note Henry Cameron's work to right.)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 4/16, 7:07am)


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Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

"Fred: you are missing the point of local currency. It has absolutely nothing to do with avoiding taxes. That's your rightwing crypto conspiratorialism leaking out."


In the time honored in-ter-net tradition, I must ask, what are you responding to that I actually wrote on this subject? Where did I claim that I believed it had anything to do with avoiding taxes? The reference I included was something I found, not something I said. I argued exactly the opposite, and explicitly stated that the only benefit I could see from this was localized circulation.

I found it curious that anyone would believed this had something to do with avoiding federal taxes, or support of the federal government. I wondered, explicitly, how many people using this currency mistakenly believed that it was any such thing, and offered an excerpt from someone making that claim, which was not my claim.

Tell you what; if you can quote back to me my assertion that I believe local currency impacts taxes, then I'll cop to the sloppy 'rightwing crypto consipirationalism' spraypaint.

If you can't, then I'll still cop to it, gladly, and thank you for pointing out that 'localized circulation' = 'keep wealth local.'

regards,
Fred







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Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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FB:  Tell you what; if you can quote back to me my assertion ...

I apologize. I went back and read it twice, slowly...  Yes, you only replied to a quote and yes only said that tax avoidance was not was this was about.  You also repeated that in a one-line to Kurt.  I was reading beyond my comprehension speed.  Sorry.

Mike M.


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Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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look - did not think it really was anything about no taxes, but it could be - think of a state, or even a region, seceding and saying "NO" to the oppression - it may and hopefully will happen soon.  Make them pull the guns and show their true face - it is like what they did in Atlas, trying to be "reasonable men" when reality was they were using force.

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Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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Michael:

Happens to me all the time, even with speech. Sometimes, my tongue gets wrapped around my eye teeth, and I can't see what I'm saying.

Kurt:

- think of a state, or even a region, seceding

They could do that, and still use 'federal dollars' as currency. Or, sea shells. But, they'd have to effectively do that, -first- : secede.

In War of 1812, a couple of New England states successfully ignored the order to federalize their state militia; they pretty much just said 'no.' Not secession, but a clear case of successfully ignoring federal constitutional power. That was possibly the last time that states were broadly equal to the federal government, in terms of their power to exert political will.

In Gulf War I, similar attempts failed(state ANGs), and there is some resurgence of this state resistance to federal power, in regards to Iraq. But, it is still very fringe, marginal, and not very successful.

In between, an actual attempt to broadly 'secede' clearly failed, and 'federalism' -- which used to imply a -balance- between state and federal power, has been growing ever more imbalanced ever since, until we are more like a soft federal fascism now, with the guns of the state welded up in cozy relationships to commerce, federal power uber alles.

In terms of our political system, the issue seems rigged. I can't ever see 'the highest court in the land' politically ruling in favor of secession.

That could mean, just like in the Civil War, that a successful secession(sorry)might only be accomplished via megapolitics(the politics of brute force), not politics.

But if this nation ever devolves its centralized power, I really don't think it will be the result of megapolitics. I think once that happened, we'd be well on our way to MadMax world. That wouldn't be secession, it would just be chaos. I think peaceful secession might have a chance of occurring due to the collapse of the federal government in its latest of history's attempts to run some mythically massive singular thing called 'The' Economy.

But, it is going to be ugly. Power doesn't give up power. Power is going to cling to power for as long as possible, until its fingers bleed. I'm not saying via federal guns; the printing press is just as lethal a weapon, and they'll use that first, to keep the gig going, and the nation will suffer as badly as if they had used guns. But, out of that might come peaceful, if still painful, devolution. In that case, I'd expect to see all kinds of regional currencies crop up. The fact of our 'economies' -- the systems which operate in parallel, not as a singular, serial 'thing' -- will become more apparent.

Who knows how this finally breaks, but it will. One thing is certain; history's latest variant of totalitarianism isn't going to long-term work, no matter how well intentioned it starts out. It's not how we build bridges, and it's not how we build bridges to the future.

regards,
Fred


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Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 2:43amSanction this postReply
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It has been said that when The American Colonies gained their Independence that Spain used to take the American 20 dollar gold piece and melt them down and restrike their own coins with the gold out of the American coinage. The American gold content was greater than the Spanish.  Of course after a fair trade it would be none of our business what the Spanish did with the metal. However the supply of eagles would be less, therefore having greater value. Obviously it would pique the nations pride.
 This makes for a good story out of an old history book I read for entertainment, difficult to verify but the consequences of such a situation are interesting.  
  Money after all is only one side of the wealth issue. Its value is derived from many individuals trading their skills or other posessions including their time for it. Some classes of people are forced to give away their time for less than they are worth.
As an indivisual that has been at the mercy of management all my life in a fire at will state, One finds it is sometimes in ones own best interest not to take an increase in pay because of the way the tax brackets are laid out. One can take home more money at 17 dollars an hour than at 20. Why bother with 20 when it is going to take another 2.50 an hour to keep doing business with ones employer.
 As far as script is concerned one only has to observe the German mark of the Kaiser era and the ensuing Wiemar Republic. Another example would be Zimbabwe's current economical crises.A government that prints money to appease the emotions of its people will be overrun with inflation as inflation is a false sense of profit brought on by short term gratification.
 Possibly the question is whose values are more concrete Mad Max's or the Great Humungous's ? Which one are you , consumer or producer? Josey Wales ain't  bad either.  


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Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 6:33amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Brunton, thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

 The outflow of hard money from the new republic is often cited as a "problem."  The truth is that money was evaluated strictly for its content.  Even within the UK itself, by law, silver went by tale (count) and gold by weight.  So, when those purer American silver and gold coins went to Spain, and other markets, they went on their weight.  The Keynesian solution is to have made the money less fine and therefore less likely to be exported.  That of course is nonsense.  Bimetallism was also a problem. With one "dollar" being both gold and silver, when the relative value of the metals changed -- as they must -- merchants would be short of the one or flooded with the other. Through the 19th century merchants paid a premium for silver and minor coins or sold them at a discount.  Obviously, the solution would have been coins that only announced their weight and fineness and not called themselves some money of account. 

Like infant children, Keynesians and Marxists think that if you cannot see something it is not there -- and it cannot see you.  Where did the USA gold come from?  Very little was mined here -- and certainly not in government-owned mines.  It came from gold coins -- often Arab chequins; "pirate" money -- that bought American products. How else?  They were melted down and struck into Eagles.  Apparently the Arabs had more sense than pride.
HRB: Some classes of people are forced to give away their time for less than they are worth.


Were you thinking of something other than slavery?
One finds it is sometimes in ones own best interest not to take an increase in pay because of the way the tax brackets are laid out. One can take home more money at 17 dollars an hour than at 20. Why bother with 20 when it is going to take another 2.50 an hour to keep doing business with ones employer.


We all agree with the sentiment, but the details have been different for over 30 years.  We stopped the rapacious taxation in the previous generation.  You have to make a lot more now to change brackets and even then, the rates are only more annoying, not pernicious.

From the Congressional Budget Office:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/77xx/doc7718/SupplementalTables.xls
From some conservative friends of business:
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

As far as script is concerned one only has to observe the German mark of the Kaiser era and the ensuing Wiemar Republic. Another example would be Zimbabwe's current economical crises.A government that prints money to appease the emotions of its people will be overrun with inflation as inflation is a false sense of profit brought on by short term gratification.





I do not know of any community currency that had this problem.  Competition is always a factor -- no one has to accept community currency.  And no one has to accept government money, either, for that matter.  The people who have government money are government people.  They are the ones who push it on the market, which, once things are obvious, tends to discount it heavily and quickly.  In February, some people in Zimbabwe were panning for gold to get money for bread.

Community currency is backed by the same thing that "backs" gold and silver.
"Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor--your claim upon the energy of the men who produce." -- Franciso's Money Speech.
I cannot speak for all the  community currencies, but Bay Bucks (like all the ones I know of) were created of, by, and for the producers within the community.  Producers buy the scrip from the currency board and spend it among themselves, keeping that portion of their labor (wealth) local.  Obviously, we all live by imports and exports.  The goal of community currency -- certainly of Bay Bucks --  is to stop the complete outflow of productive labor through the Big Box stores. 
Explanator story from local paper here.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 4/18, 6:43am)


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Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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One of the important obvious principles behind currency as a proxy for value is that it is not easily corruptable, counterfeited. If a tribe is on average, average, then a tribe will include it's quota of naked sweaty apes, doing what naked sweaty apes do.

Clearly, our tribes are on average, average.

In a utopic ethical tribe, they could readily use specually marked 'sea shells,' set aside for this purpose of value proxy; easily counterfeited, but nobody would, in this purely hypothetical utopic tribe.

In reality, coinage from gold and silver made counterfeiting difficult, as long as 'real' coinage was somewhat readily discernable from crap.

With printed currency, extraordinary engraving and printing technologies attempted to make currency hard to fake, resulting in currency as works of actual art.

Counterfeitable, but with great difficulty.

The above resulted in a curious new market; money valued uniquely as money, literally the coins and bills, not as a medium of exchange. Creating its own market. With coinage from precious metals, this is readily understandable, as in Michael's example above. With competing money in the same economies, there can be other factors, like the explicit discount exchange rate of Berkshares. Or, the chauvanistic factor; this is 'our' money, the local tribe, local economies. Or even, this money just 'looks' better, as a work of art. If it is accepted in value for value transactions, that is one thing, but some currency can apparently introduce brand new 'value' into value for value transaction.

All of that, primarily, from the goal of creating currency not easily corrupted, to insure functioning value for value transactions.

And largely for naught, a total distraction from the real corruption of value for value transactions in our economies, no matter what the currency; the arbitrary power to tax value for value transactions, willy nilly, either directly, or indirectly, in the ability to arbitrarily create current accounts in our economies.

"Counterfeiting" of value in value for value transactions in our economies is no less damaging if done by the government than by private counterfieters. The latter are pikers compared to what the federal government is able to do to the marketplace.

Our system has corrupted itself into a free-for-some, a concentration of power so irresistable that it has acted as its own corruption magnet. No system is perfect, and systems can and do tolerate a certain amount of imperfection, corruption, carcass carving, parasitism, and even defective beast building, but when we lurch towards 'too much' the bones begin to show.

I was first drawn to the concept of 'local currencies' wondering how they might factor into a response to overbearing centralized power, not because I thought they could, but because there were others who apparently had that belief. My conclusion is, local currency is not a factor that can directly impact change or devolution of federal power, only indirectly/symbolically. Other than the local circulation factor, which is real enough, its primary other value seems to be pure gesture politics.

In advance of any such hypothetical devolution, local currencies appear only as symbolic elements, while in the wake of any such devolution, as a required element, but I don't see how the phenomena 'local currencies' itself contrinutes in anything other than a symbolic way to devolution of too concentrated federal power.

Still, you got to admit; some of these local currencies are good looking bits of cash, values in themselves.

regards,
Fred

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Monday, April 20, 2009 - 5:58amSanction this postReply
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I will try to not misinterpret your words, Fred. 

Just a couple of notes.  First of all, the perception of "money" as "semata" (signals, signs, carriers of meaning) apart from their commodity status is subtle.  Perhaps the oldest reference to coinage is in a poem of Archilocus, c. 600 BCE:  "I care not for the -kremata- of Gyges."  The word -kremata- is considered untranslatable, but I take it to mean "handies."  The little nuggets of electrum of Gyges were actually unstamped or perhaps stamped only on one side with a simple punchmark.
See here for example and also here.  In the next generation, hallmarks, symbols, animal heads, etc., were stamped on the first true coins and in the generation after that, the centralized city government took over the production. 

Some people claim that money is not speech. Even a "simple" Owl from 450 BCE has four distinct symbols: The head of Athena, the Owl, the Sprig and the Crescent Moon.  The FRNs in your pocket have twenty separate statements.  Up until relatively modern time (early  20th century) in village markets in SE Asia and Indo-China people carried little hanging balance scales for weighing silver plate.  Coins were uncommon and their "semata" were not perceived.  I have other European coins holed at right angles to the obverse/reverse images, suggesting to me that the person who turned them into jewelry might not have perceived the images as representations, and seen them only as abstract designs.

Before you scoff at the psycho-epistemology of primitve people, though, consider Celtic coins of c. 200 BCE to 100 CE.  We are used to looking at coins front-on, at right angles to the plane of the image.  But, suggestions are undeniable that many so-called "abstract" designs become three-dimensional effects when the coin is rotated and viewed obliquely.  (Other peoples did this as well, even the Romans, apparently.  Our preferences seem set only in the Renaissance as I found similar examples in medieval coins while researching the great fairs of Champagne.)

The point of all this is that even commodity money, "hard" money is highly symbolic.

As for the shells, the Chinese character for "money" comes from the sign for "cowry." (Nice history here.)  And as indicated, copies in bone, metals other shells were made when genuine cowries were scarce.  Most of Chinese commerce was carried on brass or bronze coins that were almost entirely symbolic in value.  Wholesalers and other merchants needed silver when dealing with outsiders, but in that case, they also used silk.  Bolts of silk were the common treasury of the average farming family.  Women were responsible for the weaving, so they controlled that portion of the household wealth.

Finally, realize that many of these community currency initiatives are leftwing in origin.  These people have no desire to separate themselves from "government" per se.  They want to be free from the capitalism of the Big Box stores. 

Post script:  As Fred indicates, these local currencies are highly attractive and numismatists do pursue them as collectibles.  I sometimes consult to local currency initiatives.  Selling the notes to numismatists enhances the revenue stream.


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Monday, April 20, 2009 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

Thank you for adding that. There is clearly much more to currency and coinage than their obvious role as simple value for value proxies.

I think 'money' in all of its forms and roles is one of the least well understood aspects of modern life, at the same time that it is one of the most relied upon. What is it? What is currency? What role does it play in our lives? When is money 'value' and when is it a proxy for value? And, so on.

Our educational process basically teaches us all how to make change of a dollar; we're taught a very ridged, conservative(in the sense of, governed by conservation rules 1$=4Qrtr=10Dimes, etc.)model of what a dollar is.

And then, because after all, this widespread myth must be coming from somewhere, we're taught to believe that there is such a thing as 'The' Economy, and 'it' is like a poker game with a fixed number of chips, and pretty much that model of things drives all of our tribal politics. In that model, 'money' is simply the chips in the poker game. I swear, I run into folks all the time whose model of the world is no more complex than that. They express it in their politics, they express it in their worldview. It is evidenced, for example, everytime an otherwise supposedly educated someone asks the question, "Why can't the government just print money and hand it out?"

The politics of the nation is pretty much cast in concrete, once the education system instructs the population how it should regard money.

regards,
Fred

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Monday, April 20, 2009 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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Finally, realize that many of these community currency initiatives are leftwing in origin.  These people have no desire to separate themselves from "government" per se.  They want to be free from the capitalism of the Big Box stores.  (MEM)

Is that true?!

(Not that I doubt your expertise on all things coinage, Michael. No one here knows more than you do about that.  :-)

It's just that I initially thought that people interested in their own currency were mostly separatist Libertarian sorts---like that group that made its own coins and were subsequently raided by the U.S. Government a few years ago. (Sorry, I can't remember the name of the group, but we discussed them here a long time ago, in the Economics forum (I think); you probably know who I mean, Michael.)

When I first saw this article, I thought, "Why isn't the government putting down the jack boot on their necks for this?" (Not that I wanted them to.) But I couldn't see why this wasn't perceived as some kind of threat earlier, as it's been going on for a while now.


Post 16

Monday, April 20, 2009 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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That is a cogent point, Erica.  The group you are thinking of was NORFED, the National Organization to Repeal the Federal Reserve.  They struck "Liberty Dollars" and issued paper money against it.  On the technical side, the law specifically disallows making coins as money -- allowing tokens, which are substitutes for money -- and hte Norfed Dollars were, well, Dollars, with Liberty and patriotic Americanist slogans on them.  So, they violated the law. 
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 25 > § 486
Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title [1] or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

They also were a thorn in the side of the government and one of their issues as a Ron Paul Dollar.  So, in seizing their assets, the government sought to cripple the Ron Paul organization.  Make no mistake about that.  It was a political raid.

Something like 10,000 "Ron Paul Silver Dollars" were delivered to Norfed just before the raid.  Read other details here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

    
The image above is an Engelhard Prospector, struck by a large private chemical firm.  The obverse says, "USA 1985." Ever see the Prospector?  The other is a 1925 US Mint "California Jubilee" commemorative half dollar.

So, how the law is applied depends on who you are.

On the other hand, community currencies have only a vague left-liberal ideology and do not challenge the federal government.  They also are not coined money, but paper, and such coin-like object as exist are clearly tokens.

I do agree that there is a sense of "libertarianism" in these community currency efforts as they are creating their own money based on their own productive effort.  They monetize based on their labor.  If they were mainstream in their thinking, they would never question the dollar or the Big Box store.  As for Big Box, I am all in favor of global trade, but I'm not going to China for a chiropractor.  I might as well spend something that will come back to me.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 4/20, 10:15am)


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Monday, April 20, 2009 - 11:55amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

What do you mean by 'monetize based on their labor?' I don't think you mean, the literal labor of printing of the currency. Do you mean, 'attempt to capture/represent their labor with a unique local currency?' As in, 'when I participate in labor-value for value transactions, I want to make sure that labor-value remains local, as 'captured' by this local value proxy?'

Again, that seems purely symbolic, since even if an individual worker elected to only use 100% local currency, all such workers would need to make the same commitment. In the example of Berkshares or any local currency with an exchange rate to federal dollars, that seems problematic, and more importantly, loses sight of the original value. If one is a chiropractor(your example)then it is likely that one's original labor-value *always* remains local, federal dollars or not, and if one felt so inclinced, one can always choose to 'buy locally,' even with federal dollars. I can see where forcing oneself to commerce in local curency only would enforce that--on ones self. But, nobody else. If one is a worker at a power generating plant, or a light bulb factory, then control over one's 'original value' in the personal value for value transaction is long lost, no matter what currency wages are paid in.

Without the 5% discount(which could just as well, and often is, be directly offered by local merchants offering coupons and so on, and using federal dollars), I don't see any real evidence that local currencies do anything other than displace federal dollars that would have been used for local commerce anyway. Maybe, marginally, as in, getting stuck at the airport in Jamaica with too much left over Jamaican currency, and buying crap at the airport you normally wouldn't. But a steady diet of that wouldn't be encouraged, I don't think, simply by the existence of the currency, especially if it was easily fungible. Without the discount, there seems to be little real incentive.

If anything, the federal government should be saying 'thanks for taking it easy on our high cotten stock, and footing your own currency maintenance.' Local circulation replaced by local currency is less wear and tear on federal dollars.

It seems totally symbolic, pure gesture politics. (I mean, other than the 5% discount thing. That just seems like clever 'local chamber of commerce' thinking.)

Business and personal income is still federally and state taxed, period. Maybe it marginally increases local circulation, maybe it doesn't. With the 5% discount, it should, but then, so should similar discount coupons mass mailed to the public.

The more this phenomena is examined, the more purely symbolic it seems. Pure gesture politics. No wonder the federal government largely doesn't care...

In the NORFED case, there must have been other factors which 'made them care.' Maybe the similarity to other coinage. Maybe the political angle.

regards,
Fred



Post 18

Monday, April 20, 2009 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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Fred, you need to apply everything you know about money to this.  It works exactly the same way for all creators of money.  You could be the Federal Reserve or the Hong Kong Currency Board -- read about it; the HKD is backed in dollars; so the East Caribbean -- or the local bank creating checking accounts when it lends money to businesses.
 
The money you create is highly symbolic, semata with hermeneutic context.  Francisco said, "Those slips of paper in your wallet which should have been gold..."  Their being gold would change little: the only value any money has is the things you can buy with it. 
 
You seem stuck on the 5% Berkshares policy.  Different places have different regimens for different contexts. 
 
If you are not sold on this on the first read, my intuitition is that you have other reservations entirely, and that's fine, as far as it goes.  Like much else in life, it may be for you or it may not.


(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 4/20, 8:07pm)


Post 19

Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

I'm not hostile at all towards the idea of local currency. I think it's kinda neat, on many levels.

It has all kinds of 'value', some of it real, some of it symbolic, and some of it purely imagined. It was actually the nature of the latter (the purely imagined attributes of value)that made me so curious about this phenomena.

As in, the quote I referenced. There are folks who clearly value this currency for something that it really isn't. I find that fascinating.

I wonder, how much of the marketplace is like that? I mean ultimately, 'value' is in the eye of the beholder, I understand that. But in this case, even when that 'value' is mistakenly perceived, maybe spillover from its symbolic value. A wanting to believe that it really is something it is not encourages that imagining.

I guess if it is value, then it is value, period. Even if it is delusional.

I mean, most local currencies, as implemented(certainly in the Berkshares example, which I know isn't the only imnplentation by far)really have no impact at all on federal taxation, support of the federal government.

regards,
Fred






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