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Post 0

Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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My first question would be, is this girl human? I think you have to grant that she was both an animal, and coolly rational in pursuit of her horrific goal.

The second question would be, is her nature the same as ours? (By us I mean those of us here who would be so repulsed by the nature of her act as to be unable seriously to contemplate it.) I would say that no, she represents an alternate phenotype, the sociopath, which exists among "normal" humans in the same way that certain fish species exhibit two types of males, nesters and parasitic dwarfs.

Among certain species of salmon and cichlid fishes, there are two types of male. The standard type invests in a large "sexy" body type. It will fight to build a nest site and attract a mate to lay her eggs. The parasitic males are small, appearing like female or even juvenile fish. The parasites evade the defenses of the nesting males and fertilize the females' eggs, without making an investment in "child raising," and even without having gone to sea to become mature nesting adult males.

In species with reproductive dwarf males, all the individuals belong to the same species. Yet the males can act in very different ways and even have extremely different appearances.

Is the same not possible with humans? It is speculated that historically, for example, some 10% of pregnancies are the result of rape. The tactic of the rapist is quite similar to that of the dwarf male. Can their be a rapist nature? Is there such thing as a sociopath nature? If there is, do these people deserve happiness? That is, can egoist ethics offer them anything consistent with their natures?

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Post 1

Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Where are you drawing the line? How many different species are currently being falsely mistaken for human? Is it just humans and sociopaths? Or, is there a "Ted Keer" nature?

I would think that the first thing that you would be obligated to do is show the genetic root to sociopathy - and that hasn't been done. With the fish you discuss different phenotypes but with humans you are only discussing behavior and presuming a genetic difference accounts for the behavioral differences. To me this discounts everything we know about volition, beliefs, values, and psychology.

Human nature - the nature common to humans - you need to show that sociopaths are not humans - literally, a different species. I think anything less would leave your remarks just the nexus of a pseudoscience that would muck up individual rights - all of ethics. All we would have to do is declare someone a sociopath and they wouldn't have rights? Rights would no longer be connected to actions?

Do I get to make up the moral code that best fits the "Steve Wolfer" nature?

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Post 2

Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Do I get to make up the moral code that best fits the "Steve Wolfer" nature?

You have no choice but to make up a moral code that best fits your nature.

There seems to be something organic about sociopaths that makes them what they are, look at the case of Phineas Gage.

I am not saying that there are different species of human. I am saying that if there is such a thing as human nature there can be different types of human nature just as there a different types of salmon. What does one say to a person whose brain is wired differently from the standard sociable (heterosexual, hearing, non-autistic, etc.,) human?

I am not quite so sure why you are making such a big deal about species. (I think you are partially misconstruing my point.) Take the dwarf salmon as an example. It is speculated that salmon that hatch at a bad time of the year for them to be able to swim out to sea and return successfully in a later breeding cycle may become fixed as dwarf males and stay in their mountain pools year round. This is a genetic potentiality that is environmentally determined. When the standard males and females return to breed, the dwarf males shoot in unseen during mating and fertilize the eggs of a female that would otherwise not have bred with them. The scheme is evolutionarily stable. These dwarf males are not another species. Species are defined as interbreeding populations isolated from other such populations. The dwarf and "bourgeois" salmon (see the link in post 0) definitely belong to the same species.

If an organic cause can make humans physically aggressive and lacking in empathy, perhaps such males could become rapists and pass along this tendency. That could be an evolutionarily stable strategy. But whether there is just one gene for this type of person or not doesn't really matter so long as there are people who are irrevocably wired that way.

The only way recognizing that people have different natures "mucks up" ethics is if you think that all ethics is a top down derivation of values from some rational premise. This is an orthodox but false view of values. It leads to such nonsense as ascribing homosexuality to a person's "premises."

Values are exactly analogous to concepts in that they develop from the bottom up. The process of maturation is in part the process of integrating ones values. Children not only have to learn to delay gratification, they have to learn to identify what gratifies them, and to do so on ever larger time scales and scopes. That we are rational animals (and this applies to sociopaths and homosexuals as well as "normal" folks) serves only as axiomatically significant. We don't derive out knowledge of the world, our perceptions and our lower level concepts by derivation from the axioms down. Neither do we develop our values from the fact that we are rational animals. The ability to develop an integrated world view that encompasses immediate pleasures and long term goals within an integrated system of explicit moral values emerges in a child as he passes from urge gratification and role play to work and responsibility and mature pleasures in adulthood.

The baby's values are based on immediate sensations of hunger, warmth, comfort and so forth. A baby does not hunger due to his "premises." Children learn more and more complex values as they mature. Parents help a child determine what the child himself likes and lead him into ways to enjoy himself that do not conflict with the necessities of health and getting along in society. Some children do find that as they develop they have urges that differ from those of normal folk. Evidently that is what happened to this girl. Of course the fact that she has taken a life requires that she be treated as a killer.

But what if her tendencies had been identified earlier? Should she simply have been told that she was evil, and that there was no place for her in society? Or should she have been counseled that she must learn to respect others' rights, even if it did not come natural to her, but that perhaps her talents could be channeled into other pursuits which would bring her pleasure while allowing her to coexist with society?

The central point I am trying to make is yes, that each individual is unique and that our natures do vary in untold ways. The fact that we are rational animals is not a full description of our nature. The concepts of rational animality are not a source for the content of our values, but serves as ethically axiomatic concepts which allow us to integrate our values as we cultivate them from the bottom up.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 11/18, 10:21pm)


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Post 3

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 5:11amSanction this postReply
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The girl is human, but only with a caveat: she's an existentialist, like Ian Brady & Myra Hindley.

That's just what bad (wrong) philosophy does to humans. They don't have a different nature, just a different philosophy which makes them appear as if they have a "non-human" nature.

That's how powerful philosophy is.

Ed 


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Post 4

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
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Ted:

I tend to agree with your premise. I think we are fortunate, though, that this kind of broken machine -- no matter what the cause, wetbit wiring, experience, plus stress or combination of all of that -- is a rare, fringe exception. Pure six sigma fringe mayhem, the odd broken machine inside of mankind.

Individual broken machines are tragic, but random and rare. Being subject to the excesses of an individual broken machine is a little like getting hit by lightning.

What would be catastrophic would be some systemic set of causes, a tribal bias to produce broken machines. I can't imagine such a tribe lasting for long, it would seem to me to be unworkable in the long run. Maybe that is why we don't normally see Mad Max worlds; if we ever saw them, we wouldn't see them for long, nor have many lasting memories of them.

In this girl's case, her behavior as described seems reptilian. Pure WAG conjecture, but whatever evolutionary processing wetbits that we might share with reptiles, she might have just enough more of to have pushed her out to that six sigma fringe.

Are some of us predisposed slightly more to reptilian behavior, and with a little 'encouragement' by our experience and stress levels, can we be made to act on those reptilian urges?

Well, one thing is for certain: six-sigma happens, which is the statistical equivalent of 'shit happens.' Always did, always will, that perfectly rational, always well behaved species is not just around the corner.







Post 5

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 7:39amSanction this postReply
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Ever know of Leopold and Loeb? the premises are similar...

Post 6

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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Okay, gentleman, if "premises" are the source of all our actions, then what premises lead men to masturbate? And what premises lead men to drink alcohol?

The premise that all human actions are motivated by "premises" is absurd.

We don't lecture newborns in hedonism in order to convince them that sugar tastes good and that they should have a desire to eat. How much time have either of you spent babysitting toddlers? We don't teach children to desire, we teach them to control their desires. Masturbation arises not based on any premise but upon the (usually accidental) discovery that touching oneself in certain ways causes great pleasure. No one (no male, at least) needs to be convinced to masturbate. The alcoholic's premises may be entirely lined up against drinking. The urge remains nonetheless, and it is not based on the premises that it is a good thing to die penniless in the gutter of liver failure.

Ed, your assertion that this girl acted based upon her adoption of existentialism is priceless, one of the funniest things I have read on this forum.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 11/19, 8:48am)


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Post 7

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You said, "I am not saying that there are different species of human. I am saying that if there is such a thing as human nature there can be different types of human nature just as there a different types of salmon. What does one say to a person whose brain is wired differently from the standard sociable (heterosexual, hearing, non-autistic, etc.,) human?

I am not quite so sure why you are making such a big deal about species."


I believe you are creating an equivocation on the phrase "human nature" that will effect all things that are logically derived from the concept. Either that, or you are laying ground work to deny the existence of any such thing as human nature.

I was using the concept "species" to set a boundry - to mark the instances that might fall within what we mean by "human" in this context. Because that (the class of all such instances) is what we use as the subject for determining "human nature" and that is where I see you creating the equivocation. She is human (in all of the senses that matter to this context), yet you wish to assign her a different nature. That is an equivocation where you mix up the nature common to all that are human with the nature of this particular human (plus those other humans that are sociopathic).

Your language says that there are 'different types of human nature.' It should be there are different types of humans subsumed within human nature (singular). Otherwise, the implication is that what conceptually arises from human nature doesn't apply to all humans. There is THE nature of humans, and there is THE nature of sociopaths. The nature of sociopaths is a fully included subset of the nature of humans.

There is another sense of "human nature" that is being lost in your use of the phrase when you say that there can be different types of human nature. When we talk about what is proper to man as man, we are differentiating proper from possible. Species is a boundry marker for the category of subject-properties (we aren't interestsed in what is possible or proper for rocks, or bird or unicorns). Proper is a subset of what is possible and because it is being derived at the same knowledge level it remains universal. This is how we derive moral from metaphysical. When you flirt with the idea that a person can be human but not have the same 'human nature' then you break the link with universal morality and end up with subjective morality.

There are an almost infinite array of differences between individuals. Many of the differences are common to many individuals and show up as a recognizable pattern (sociopath, blue eyes, dwarf, Libertarian, homosexual, etc.). Differences between individuals naturally give rise to differences in particular values - personal values - but without changing what values are common to all humans.

There are different humans, and they each have different individual natures, but none of those natures fall outside of human nature. Because of that, they each retain their relationship to what is proper for all humans and therefore are subject to the same moral code. If the moral code is drawn from what is proper for all humans as humans then it is drawn from a category that includes heterosexual, homosexual, hearing, non-hearing, etc. When this is clearly understood it helps to avoid the common error of mistaking genetic 'normal' or statistically prevalent as proper. It clears the way for examining what is meant by flourishing and the role of choice - the two key components of 'proper.'


Post 8

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Steve, what you mean by this is entirely unclear to me:

"I was using the concept "species" to set a boundry - to mark the instances that might fall within what we mean by "human" in this context. Because that (the class of all such instances) is what we use as the subject for determining "human nature" and that is where I see you creating the equivocation. She is human (in all of the senses that matter to this context), yet you wish to assign her a different nature. That is an equivocation where you mix up the nature common to all that are human with the nature of this particular human (plus those other humans that are sociopathic)."

I fear the confusion is because the notion of human nature here is a floating abstraction. The fault is not with what you've written but with the orthodox Objectivist notion. Common human nature is our rationality - our ability to conceptualize and communicate conceptually - and our animality - the fact that we are mammals with warm blood, a need for food, parenting and so forth. Ethics does provide us with a superstructure, a keystone to the arch which is our lives. But the individual content with which we fill our lives, the values we actually pursue, like the limbs of an arch, are built from the bottom up, not the top down.

Objectivism runs into all sorts of problems by asserting that all of what we value derives from our "premises." Look at the Branden/Rand affair. According to the premise theory of love, Branden should have been sexually attracted to Rand even if she were 80 and wheelchair bound. But his individual nature as a virile heterosexual middle aged male made him attracted to whom? Likewise, consider my questions about what "premise" makes us masturbate or what "premise" makes the alcoholic desire alcohol. Are we going to say that alcoholism is part of human nature in general? The orthodox version of the Objectivist ethics treats human nature as some sort of Platonic ideal. An Aristotelian emphasis on the priority of the individual is necessary.

My point with miss Bustamante is that she is human and she is rational but by her nature she does not share what we consider the essential human traits of value of other people. She apparently has no empathy. Objectivists say that art, frindship and romantic love are some of man's highest values. Is that possible for this girl and sociopaths like her? If not, does the problem lie in that she is an unnatural monster, or in the fact that the Objectivist ethics is fine for most people, but some people fall outside its narrowly defined scope. Since I hold that individual humans are prior to ethical systems, I don't want to declare some people inhuman. I want to find out if they can be provided with ethical guidance that takes their natures into account.



Post 9

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Robert:

That's an excellent reminder. In that instance,

The argument...

" Nature is strong and she is pitiless. She works in mysterious ways, and we are her victims. We have not much to do with it ourselves. Nature takes this job in hand, and we only play our parts. In the words of old Omar Khayyam, we are only Impotent pieces in the game He plays Upon this checkerboard of nights and days, Hither and thither moves, and checks, and slays, And one by one back in the closet lays. What had this boy had to do with it? He was not his own father; he was not his own mother....All of this was handed to him. He did not surround himself with governesses and wealth. He did not make himself. And yet he is to be compelled to pay."

...and much more, prevailed over:

"State's Attorney Robert Crowe closed for the prosecution. He sarcastically attacked the arguments of "the distinguished gentlemen whose profession it is to protect murder in Cook County, and concerning whose health thieves inquire before they go out and commit a crime." Addressing Leopold, Crowe said, "I wonder now, Nathan, whether you think there is a God or not. I wonder whether you think it is pure accident that this disciple of Nietzsche's philosophy dropped his glasses or whether it was an act of Divine Providence to visit upon your miserable carcasses the wrath of God." (Leopold, much later, said he wondered the same thing.) He heaped ridicule on Darrow's attempt to blame the crime on anyone and anything but the defendants: "My God, if one of them had a harelip I suppose Darrow would want me to apologize for having them indicted." Crowe called the defense psychiatrists "The Three Wise Men from the East" and accused one of them of being "in his second childhood" and "prostituting his profession." He reserved his strongest language for the two defendants, who he referred to as "cowardly perverts", "snakes", "atheists", "spoiled smart alecs", and "mad dogs." For Crowe, this was a premeditated crime committed by two remorseless defendants, and the appropriate punishment was obvious. The "real defense" in the case, according to Crowe, was "Clarence Darrow and his peculiar philosophy of life." It ought not be a defense, suggested Crowe, who closed by asking Judge Caverly to "execute justice and righteousness in the land."

In my view of morality, summarized by the axiom "One skin, one driver", murder is a clear-cut, absolute, and extreme violation of the axiom, and as such, I find it a moral use of the power of the state to summarily execute extreme violators of that axiom, if for no other reason then the occupiers of those skins have already demonstrated a willingness and ability to violate that axiom in extreme, and summary execution is the only guarantee the state can make that same will not be repeated again. In my judgment, ie, what I would consider as just, once that axiom is violated, the violators of that axiom lose protection of the axiom. (Certainly, in measured kind as a response, and in this instance, that measure is 'murder.')

In my mind, it is trivial to maintain protection under that axiom: don't violate it, ever, for any reason. The responsibility and reasons for violating lie within the skin of those who violate it, and thus, the consequences as well.

Had the state executed them, I would have checked my moral axiom -- "One skin, one driver", looked for who has violated that axiom in this instance, and I would have slept like a baby with the state's actions.

regards,
Fred


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Post 10

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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Okay, gentleman, if "premises" are the source of all our actions, then what premises lead men to masturbate?

Beats me.




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Post 11

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 10:05amSanction this postReply
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(Ted, I'll get to your last post in another message. I wanted to put up this bit about organic versus learned before addressing your last post.)

The sociopath and alcoholic may be similar in some ways. We may end up discovering that the wiring is different for a sociopath than a non-sociopath - that the wiring is different for an alcoholic than a non-alcoholic. But in both cases the result is a predisposition and amounts to a need to exert choice differently. An alcoholic must exercise their will in a different fashion because of a stronger urge than a non-alcoholic. If choice can still be exercised, then the actions in these contexts are still within the realm of objective morality AND personal responsibility.

Is a sociopath wired differently? I.e, is it an organic disorder? I'm not convinced. We might find that to be true, but I don't think we know yet. I can imagine a set of disorders that take place during an early stage of development - like where Ted was discussing the difference between a desire and a premise and teaching a child to control their desires. It is at a very early state of development that the child forms the sense of self versus other. If that formation is faulty, it could continue to develop in a flawed form and result in the various personality disorders we see (antisocial, narcissist, histrionic, borderline, paranoid, avoidant, dependent, obsessive, etc.) There is some solid research showing the correlation between early child abuse and neglect and the various personality disorders and that makes sense to me (as one way in which it would be easy to form a pervasive disorder related to the perception of others).

The psychologist would generalize in describing the disorder and create language that reflects the essence of the flaw in the cognitive process - as a bad premise. Like a learned disposition to block out certain aspects of others that the rest of us take in and process.

Post 12

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism runs into all sorts of problems by asserting that all of what we value derives from our "premises." Look at the Branden/Rand affair. According to the premise theory of love, Branden should have been sexually attracted to Rand even if she were 80 and wheelchair bound. But his individual nature as a virile heterosexual middle aged male made him attracted to whom?
...............

No - CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT..... even if Rand herself forgot to deal with this in her 'hell hath no fury...'...

Post 13

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
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There is some solid research showing the correlation between early child abuse and neglect and the various personality disorders and that makes sense to me (as one way in which it would be easy to form a pervasive disorder related to the perception of others).
..................

Too, this also needs be taken in context, in this case historical - what passed for the norm in earlier societies would by today's standards be abuse - would that be why crime as such was much higher [and more taken as a granted even?] and humans were considered [and less disputed on this] as being flawed and demented wretches?

Post 14

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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"Context, Context, Context" means what, here? If there is any meaning whatsoever behind what you are saying, surely you can put it in the form of three coherent sentences?

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Post 15

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, I am making several related points. The first is that if a proper system of ethics for an entity has to be consistent with that entity's nature, then what that entity's nature is has to be discovered empirically, not in an a priori, Kantian way. Taking the example of the two types of salmon (and there are also other examples of different morphological types, like overwintering insects versus ephemerals) I am arguing that it is possible that there are different types of humans who, by their natures, vary more or less significantly from the "standard" human form in an ethically relevant way.

Second, I am not trying, a priori to prove that there is, for example, a sociopath type. But I am saying that Rand greatly overgeneralized from herself and from her own theories of herself to demonstrate what is normal and rational in humans. (This is apparent in some of her aesthetic writing, in her theory of femininity and masculinity, and in the testimony of her biographers.) Rand had a bizarrely rationalistic and abiological theory of "premises" as biological and psychological causes. (Again, look to her biographers, her notion that Nathaniel's lack of sexual attraction and Frank's mental decline derived from mistaken premises, her supposed reaction to the news that she had cancer with the objection that she only had good premises.) She is perfectly correct that, say, as an adult, one will react with anger to news that an injustice such as the acquittal of O. J. Simpson has been perpetrated, and that this is based on one's moral premises. But developmentally it is absurd to say that the reason a baby cries when you take something out of his hands is because of his philosophical approval of property rights.

A proper, biologically sound theory of values would have to take into account the genetically and environmentally influenced differences between individuals and also look at humans as the products of development. One cannot form a proper theory of value by taking adults and their desires as givens. Look again at Rand's comments on homosexuality. She doesn't look at the fact that sexuality is hormonally mediated. She doesn't look at homosexuality historically, or in the context of our relatives the bonobos. She starts with the a priori notion that our desires result from our premises. She notes that homosexual desires are foreign to her, that she is the paragon of rationality, and that homosexual desires must therefore be irrational, and therefore based on false premises, and therefore, "frankly, immoral." (Rand can of course be personally forgiven for largely taking the view of her times as given.)

Rand is being rationalistic here. She is starting with a notion of human nature, divorced from certain concrete individuals. She realizes that humans have to be divided into two classes, man and woman, or else she cannot derive her theory of Romantic love. So she splits man into man and man-worshiper. And then she stops. The only further distinction she makes is between heroes and bums, and between man-worshipers and sluts. Rand makes no room for observation of individual variation. Her version of femininity is universal femininity. Is it possible that some people, perhaps genetically, are predisposed to find the smell of one sex or the other or both as attractive? (Indeed, we know that even one's impression of the taste of broccoli is biochemically motivated, not determined by one's premises.) Is it possible that biology will provide us with certain urges no matter what our premises are? Dozens if not hundreds of homosexuals sought therapy under Branden and others to fix the "premises" which made them unable to live according to what Objectivism held to be proper to masculine nature.

Was the theory wrong, or were the people "broken"? Rand's thoughts on matters of human variation were at best confused. Told that the ballet dancer Rudolph Nureyev was homosexual, she objected "But he's so well endowed!"

Kant's ethical theory held that in order for an act to be properly moral it should be such that if it were described abstractly you could make that abstraction into a universal moral law. For instance, one might say that it is wrong in a certain instance to steal because one could universalize that description to the injunction that no one should never steal. The problem is that there are an infinite number of ways to describe any particular act abstractly. What if technically one has to trespass on someone's land in order to avoid being hit by a runaway bus. Is the relevant maxim that one should never trespass except in case of immanent vehicle collision? The results are absurd. Kant is trying to derive morality from floating abstractions.

Rand's system, in order to avoid floating abstractions, has to view the notion of man as a volitionally rational being and the virtues derived therefrom as an ethical superstructure which in an adult serves as the integrating cap stone to the edifice which is his system of values. The individual structure itself is built from the bottom up as a person develops from infancy through childhood to adolescence and maturity. (Parental guidance is the scaffolding that holds up a child's value system.) The baby, for instance, will, without instruction or prior belief, seek out the physical comfort of a hug. (Perhaps Ed will call the baby an implicit hedonist, but I can assure you the infant will not have read Aristippus of Cyrene.*) The adolescent will discover sexual pleasures. If he integrates those with attraction to women he will build one type of structure, perhaps, to continue the metaphor a round tower, while if with men, perhaps a square tower. If he fails to integrate his desires as he matures he will build an unstable structure, a tower neither round nor square, like some congressman advocating "family values" and fornicating in public toliets. His life will come crumbling down because as he built it upward he never developed a coherent structural plan.

The type of structure one builds may be determined by the biological foundation one has and the early choices one makes long before one ever realizes that one has to place a capstone on the roof or it will fail. Perhaps certain types of people will build different types of structures, round and square towers, without the ability once the work has begun, to switch from one to the other. A system of ethics should not be a school of architecture that says one can only build round towers, and that those who, occassionaly, build square towers are evil. Ethics is anterior to the individual, not prior.

*This, Ed, is mockery.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 11/19, 5:42pm)


Post 16

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Ed, your assertion that this girl acted based upon her adoption of existentialism is priceless, one of the funniest things I have read on this forum.
I assume that you are trying to mock me (or mock what I said). Mockery can be useful, but it can be used when you don't actually have an argument to back up your criticism. I think that's true of you. You can't back up the mockery. To head off any feigned attempts to back it up, let me first ask you:

Do you believe the Moors murders were due to existentialism?

Here's what Ian Brady, fascinated with existentialist philosophers, had to say:

In contrast to the common belief that serial killers often continue with their crimes until they are caught, Brady claimed in 2005 that the Moors murders were "merely an existential exercise of just over a year, which was concluded in December 1964". By then, he went on to claim, he and Hindley had turned their attention to armed robbery, for which they had begun to prepare by acquiring guns and vehicles.
[source: wiki entry above]

Okay, now that the Moor murderer admitted that his Moor murders were due to existentialism, we have to ask just one more question:

Could the same be true of Alyssa Bustamante?

Nevermind that the Columbine killers committed their killing spree during the hours of Eastern Philosophy class (source: Bowling for Columbine), that is merely a peripheral point right now. Right now the only issue is whether philosophy is a likely cause of folks acting out -- or not. What did Rand have to say about that, you ask? ...

The men who are not interested in philosophy need it most urgently: they are most helplessly in its power.
The men who are not interested in philosophy absorb its principles from the cultural atmosphere around them—from schools, colleges, books, magazines, newspapers, movies, television, etc. Who sets the tone of a culture? A small handful of men: the philosophers. Others follow their lead, either by conviction or by default.
If, in the course of philosophical detection, you find yourself, at times, stopped by the indignantly bewildered question: “How could anyone arrive at such nonsense?”—you will begin to understand it when you discover that evil philosophies are systems of rationalization.
Philosophy provides man with a comprehensive view of life. In order to evaluate it properly, ask yourself what a given theory, if accepted, would do to a human life, starting with your own.
Philosophy is a necessity for a rational being: philosophy is the foundation of science, the organizer of man’s mind, the integrator of his knowledge, the programmer of his subconscious, the selector of his values.
Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation—or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy ...
[source:aynrandlexicon.com]

There is some wisdom to be gained from Rand's incomplete understanding of love as something premise-promulgated. Much of that understanding will come from the mental separation of genuine love and mere infatuation (or physical attraction). Rand mistakenly didn't account, or allow, for meaningless infatuations to occur. Apparently, she didn't understand -- or integrate -- the full power and scope of the male sex drive. But none of this takes away from my harsh criticism of your position on this matter (nor the power of her words above).

Ed


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Post 17

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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My first question would be, is this girl human?

Homo sapiens and horrific sociopathic behavior are not mutually exclusive.

Alexander the "Great"

Genghis Khan

Most of the Roman dictators after the fall of the Republic

Mao

Stalin

Hitler

Pol Pot

Che

The rulers of North Korea

and on and on ...

Post 18

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, come on Ed. How is a simple, explicit statement that something you said was hilarious "mockery"?

Yes, Jim, see below.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 11/19, 3:28pm)


Post 19

Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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Sex and the Sociopath

. . . In over 90 percent of the Asian men tested, the Y-chromosomes were quite diverse, indicating a multiplicity of paternal-line ancestors in their highly varied family trees. In striking contrast, 8 percent had Y-chromosomes that were virtually identical, indicating a common forefather.

This individual man's Y-chromosome is today found in an estimated 16 million of his male line progeny in a vast swath of Asia from Manchuria near the Sea of Japan to Uzbekistan and Afghanistan in Central Asia. That's one of every 200 males on Earth today.

Of course, the scientists didn't use terms like "greatest lover;" but, for academic authors, they did seem rather excited, calling their findings "novel," "striking," and "unique."

So, who was this potent patriarch?

Oxford biochemist Chris Tyler-Smith, one of the co-authors of this new report "The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols," told United Press International, "We are pretty sure that this man lived in Mongolia or nearby, at about a thousand years ago, with an error of plus or minus a few hundred years."

Early in the last millennium, the population of the world was, speaking very roughly, 1/20th as large as it is today. Therefore, the average man alive then has 20 descendants alive today in his direct male line. In contrast, with about 16 million direct male descendants, this one mega-ancestor was something like 800,000 times more successful than the average.

The co-authors wrote, "Within the last 1,000 years in this part of the world, these conditions are met by Genghis Khan (c. 1162-1227) and his male relatives. He established the largest land empire in history and often slaughtered the conquered populations, and he and his close male relatives had many children." . . .

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