RoR: Forum

Concise and well done - and accurate... unfortunately, as another phrase goes, "none so blind as those who would not see"....

Post 1

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 5:14am

This explains a whole hell of a lot, doesn't it? Great find, Bob.

Post 2

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 7:22am

This presentation was very effective and believable. I'm sending it out to my mailees.

Thanx .

Sam

Post 3

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 7:41am

From the video:

It's explained in the Qur'an that if you have two passages contradict one another, the one written later supersedes the one written earlier.

Does anybody know where (sura(h) number) this is "explained in the Qur'an"? Other sources I've seen say this is the dominant but not unanimous view.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 9/05, 9:31am)

Post 4

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 8:41am

Wow!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM

Post 5

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 10:28am

Ethan, are you suggesting that prominent Koran advocates can be publicly and effectively "pwned" in real life in the same way as the prominent Bible advocate in the fictional life video that you linked?

Post 6

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 11:51am

I found a website that does a good job of explaining the business of later verses overriding or cancelling earlier ones: IslamReview.com/articles/quaransdoctrine.shtml

Here are the two key verses that Merlin was asking about:

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2: 106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101

Muslim scholars have examined this issue and according to the website, everyone who has been formally schooled in the religion is familiar with it. The scholar Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr wrote a book on it titled "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (in English: "The Abrogator and the Abrogated") - the entire book is about this issue. It identifies every cancelled or overridden verse. Only 43 surahs (chapters) out of 114 are unaffected!

From the website, "There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is called the verse of the sword:"

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." Surah 9:5

Here are a few verses that are abrogated by the verse of the sword:

�Those who believe (in the Qua�an), and the Christians and the Sabians � any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve� (Surah 2:62).

�But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah� (Surah 8:61)

[Note: apart from stumbing upon this website online, which was created by a Christian ministry, I haven't verified any of this elsewhere.]
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 9/05, 12:09pm)

Post 7

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 12:17pm

Thanks, Steve.

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 2:14pm

Hi Luke,

No, I'm suggesting that looking at litteral translations of religious texts and laws doesn't equate to the actual actions/beliefs of all practitioners of such religions.

Most of the posters here hate (yes I use the term on purpose) Islam and think it's fine and dandy to go to war with all muslims over it by paining them all with the same brush. In this thread it's suggested that they are allowed through scripture to lie to everyone else so that if they say they don't want to convert the world to Sharia law then they are just covering up their true intentions.

I'll say what I said in other threads; crap like this just plays into the extremists hands as they can point to it and use it a a recruiting tool.

Post 9

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 3:11pm

Without debating your thesis, Ethan, I think it is notable that Christians do not issue their equivalent of fatwas when media such as your link gets published.

Now if we could somehow get Muslims to become as tepid as Christians about their faith, that would represent a winning strategy.

How?

Post 10

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 3:21pm

"Christians" as a whole can't be said to do anything, as a whole. Certainly some have issued their own fatwas against dcotors performing abortions and carried them out. Not all Christians have done this and I wouldn't claim that they all had.

Post 11

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 3:58pm

Ethan, no group as a "whole" has to do anything. If a tiny minority does horrible things and a sizable proportion of the rest either gives tacit approval or at least remains silent, that is enough to cause terror. Their silence about the terror puts blood on their hands. This applies to those Christians who call abortion "murder" and those Muslims who consider "infidels" as lacking a right to life. Still, I trust a Christian to do less harm than a Muslim! I still want to know your proposal to "tame" the Muslim faith to the tepid level of the average American Christian so as to reduce their harms to comparable levels. Did I miss a thread somewhere?

Post 12

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 4:08pm

Hi Luke,

One never "tames" faith. Extremism flourishes on disinformation, victimization, and a plausible spin. One shouldn't feed extremists as one shouldn't feed trolls.

Look around this country and you'll hear similar spins on our Christian nation and how Christian's are being victimized and marginalized. I see ominous parallels :-)

Post 13

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 4:20pm

Hi Ethan,

Just a couple of points....

I do hate Islam (please remember that we are talking about a set of beliefs - a religion - not people. That's a valid distinction.) I hate it because of the mysticism, the authoritarian nature (Islam means 'submission'), the attitude towards non-believers, the political ideology, the attitude towards women, and the harshness of many of the commandments.

I don't hate Muslims. Like I said, that is a different thing. I did not paint all Muslims with the same brush and never would. Nor did the site I linked to (although I can't speak for all of the articles posted there).

The actual actions and beliefs of many of the practitioners of Islam vary from no problem to anyone at any time, to barbaric torture and killing in the name of Islam. When compared against any other religion the portion who either sanction, support or engage in bad behaviors is very high. Yes, still a minority, but one that is, again, changing the course of history for the worse.

Think about this: If there are two ways to approach a religion, one of which is adopt it in a consistent and literal fashion, and the other is to ignore large portions of the literal scriptures, which follower is the true believer, the best representative of Islam? And by what standard are those who only choose some of the scriptures doing their choosing? They are going to be weak because they will not be able to justify not being more consistent. That is the main reason that Islam is unlikely to ever reform itself.

I disagree that this kind of information plays into the hands of extremists. I think that this information and this viewpoint needs to be understood by all of us in our Western Culture. Otherwise, we will loose our culture, our civilization.

I see that video that Bob linked to for this thread as valuable intellectual ammunition in a cultural war that we have been losing. And I'd point at Holland and England and France as places where they are now becoming very worried and don't know what to do.

Post 14

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 4:35pm

Meh. I seem not to make my desires clear. What I want from Ethan is his proposal for how the United States government ought to have responded -- and how it ought to continue to respond -- to 9/11, its causes, and its aftermath.

Perhaps a full article from Ethan would clear the air.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 9/05, 4:36pm)

Post 15

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 5:10pm

Hi Luke,

The response to 9/11 began appropriately: Attack Al Qaida and the Taliban government of Afghanistan that supported it. We (meaning U.S. government) should have had a firmer diplomatic hand with the government of Pakistan as well, rather than playing about with them.

The war with Iraq was a waste that became a rallying cry for the remnants of Al Qaida. It gave them victories they could point to, dragged us into a prolonged conflict at high cost, and made our allies suddenly not think so highly of it.

As for identifying the causes they are many. We have blundered around in the mideast for far too long. Supporting governments we shouldn't have, failing to criticize ones we should have, and backing down over many things we shouldn't have. Then you have the Taliban mess that we had a hand in ramping up. Causes go on for a long way and recognizing them is important to changing how we deal with other countries and groups.

Post 16

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 5:12pm

Steve,

I disagree that this kind of information plays into the hands of extremists. I think that this information and this viewpoint needs to be understood by all of us in our Western Culture. Otherwise, we will loose our culture, our civilization.

Pouring gasoline onto your burning house to help the fire department find it is never wise.

Post 17

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 5:26pm

Ethan,

You said, "Pouring gasoline onto your burning house to help the fire department find it is never wise."

I don't think that mirrors our current situation very accurately. Try this: "Pretending that the arsonist who keeps setting your house on fire isn't a problem, while keeping his true nature secret from others, is unlikely to promote our safety."

And besides, I have a real aversion to the concept of not speaking the truth because it might upset someone. If anything, I'd rather go the other way and speak with greater clarity and volume and shake the ideological bushes for any who would advocate the use of force in the name of religion. Get them out in the open, expose them for what they are, and educate the young about this vile religion... stopping its future growth.

Going quiet or being 'nice' in the face of those who intend to destroy us don't seem like good approachs.

Post 18

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 5:46pm

Well if the arsonist turns out be a guy who goes to the christian church next door you wouldn't go around declaring all christians your enemies would you?

Suppose the pastor and the others at the church next door were all wackos and all think burning your place down was a good thing becasue they wanted your land? Would you then go out and rail against all christians in town and everywhere, even at other churches? How about christianity in general?

Not the same you say? Islam has all these things in the Quran?

Read the Bible much?

Literature does not make one a terrorist.

Owning Atlas Shrgged and liking some of it doesn't make you an Objectivist.

Post 19

Sunday, September 5, 2010 - 6:14pm