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Saturday, December 5, 2015 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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I like CATO and have a lot of respect for much of what they do, but there are issues where they are at odds with Objectivists.  They are short of a moral code that makes them safe from altruism with its call for sacrifice. 

 

This is a very long post... feel free to jump to end where I put a bit of summary.
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... addressing the root causes of either the Syrian conflict or the rise of ISIS is beyond the scope of what the United States and its allies can reasonably do.

 

That's kind of condescending.  This probably comes from the belief that poverty (or global climate change) are part of the root causes of terrorism.  CATO sometimes shows that elements of progressive belief-system sometimes sneak in as the foundation for a 'libertarian' political policy statements.  Reasonable people understand that radical Islamic terrorism is an ideology and THAT is the root cause of the part of the Syrian mess that effects our national security, and we MUST understand it to make ourself safe from it.
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Calls on Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to negotiate with rebel fighters have proven wholly ineffective to date, while greater military involvement in Syria is neither wise nor justified on U.S. national-security grounds. 

 

Negotiating with al-Assad isn't needed.  The author of this article doesn't think we have a national security issue, so they dismis military involvement.  Until there is an understanding and agreement on America's national interests regarding security from threats of major, on-going terrorism (which would be the goal - to be free of these threats), then it is premature to discuss the means.
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a new strategy—one both morally superior to the current do-little approach and practically superior to additional military intervention. In short, the United States and its European allies should plan to take in all refugees fleeing violence in Syria, with the help of other willing nations around the world. 

 

I think that this is nonsense built upon the altruistic goal of sacrificing to help others along with a degree of delusional thinking about the existence of real threats from all forms of immigration that is likely to bring jihadists into the country.
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Proposals by American hawks such as Senators Lindsey Graham and John McCain to use U.S. ground troops to confront ISIS or remove Assad from power are clearly misguided. After all, the United States simply does not have enough of a national-security interest in either goal. 

 

This is a straw-man argument.  Our "goal" should't be to confront ISIS with U.S. ground troups or to remove Assad from power.  Our goal is to remove the threat of Islamic terror directed at the United States, and we can do that without dealing with Assad and without large numbers of U.S. ground troups.  What I don't see in this article is a solution to the problem that Islamic terrorists will one day launch a successful biological, chemical or nuclear attack that will kill Americans in the hundreds of thousands.
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Russia’s new military campaign in Syria now makes U.S. intervention far more complicated and hazardous—by adding heightened U.S.-Russian hostilities to the list of potential consequences.

 

Yes, this is true.  It is now more complicated.  But a strong, sensible America leader would be able to put together a real alliance - one with real commitments by NATO countries, and by some of Arab nations as well.  It would be the alliances that would call for the creation of a buffer zone between Turkey and Damascus where the Syrians could resettle (on the condition that adopt a neutral position regarding the Syrian civil war.  It would grant Russia the alliance's sanction of their role in protecting their interests in Syria.  The no-fly zone would be solely to make the Syrian resettlement area safe from arial attack.  Syrians would stay in Syria.  It would be in the interest of all nations (Jordan, U.S., Turkey, Germany, etc.) to not have to take in these refugees.  In this protected area, they wouldn't live forever on welfare, or in tents, but would start their own productive communities - building lives and a future.
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And finally, escalating the U.S. military campaign is unlikely to make things better. Though it would probably, in the short run, alter the balance of which groups suffer the most casualties, the central lesson from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq is that even an extended U.S. military presence cannot promise an end to conflict. 

 

It is true that you can't stop an ideological war with guns alone.  But that doesn't change the fact that military is needed for already radicalized jihadists that exist in large numbers in a given area (such as ISIS).
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Though U.S. military action can topple governments, destroy buildings, and kill people, it cannot defeat ideas or prevent the spread of extremism and the mobilization of extremist groups. 

 

That's true.  We need a 'war' on radical Islamic ideology.  But that takes generations and in the meantime we need to use force to defend ourselves against those who are not going to decide to be peaceful.  The fact the military alone won't do the trick is NOT a sound argument to say it should be not be exercised.
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Even if such an effort were practical, partial solutions like this are likely to lock civilians into refugee camps to the detriment of both the refugees and the United States. In such camps, refugees often suffer serious health risks, predation from their neighbors, economic difficulties stemming from prolonged unemployment, and mental-health strain related to all of the above. Moreover, many refugee camps have also become sources of radicalization and political violence. In short, such camps produce terrible results. 

 

This is true because of the concept of bringing in people in large numbers over short periods of time: They don't assimilate.  Also, refugees are supported by governments.  Fed, housed, and given medical care.  They arrive and rapidly become dependent - and often stay that way.  We, with a large, and strong group of allies, should carve out a sizable section of Syria and make it (in effect) a new country for the refugees.  We only contribute help in the form of helping them starting to take care of themselves and becoming independent as individuals and protected from air strikes as an area.
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An open-door policy would finally provide concrete benefits to these people, and represent a morally superior alternative to forcing refugees to remain in dangerous camps or sending them back to deadly conflict zones. 

 

Moral by what standard?  Is it our moral standard that if providing a concrete benefit to someone in another country can be envisioned, then we are morally obligated to provide it?  Do we need to feed, house and care for every person in every country whose standard of living is miserably low?  Nonsense.
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The cost numbers are silly.  The $15,700 per year per refugee for 4 years is nonsense.  The costs of an attempted vetting would use up all or more of that budget by itself.  Survellance costs for just one person out every 2 or 3 hundred would use up tens of thousands of law enforcement hours.  The article is using "resettlement" as a descriptor that doesn't include the costs of support since all refugees draw on welfare in the beginning and large numbers remain on welfare.  The added costs involve education, health-care and other tax-payer funded costs.

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In summary, I tried to knock down all of the specific arguments, but I'd sum it up by saying this:

1.)  While people differ on the nature and the threat of on-going radical Islamic jihadism, it is foolish to discuss solutions with them.

2.)  It's only under Altruism's acceptance of sacrifice that generates this concept that we are morally obligated to take in refugees,

3.)  Pay attention to the fact that the U.S. government's function is to provide adequate security against terrorism, and

4.)  Recognize that focusing on the military the way the article did is a straw-man argument.  There are other options.



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Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 3:16amSanction this postReply
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As sprawling as Muslim lands are, I cannot believe there are no Muslim areas where Muslim refugees may resettle and consequently enjoy lands already under Sharia law.  Their holy book commands them to help each other.  Why will they not do that?

 

I smell a colonization conspiracy.

 

Lest anyone forget history:

 

In 732, a hundred years after the death of the Prophet, a Muslim army, deep in France, puzzled by over-extended communications and the approach of winter, turned back near Poitiers. The Franks who faced them and killed their commander claimed a victory; at any rate, it was the high watermark of Arab conquest in the west, though in the next few years Arab expeditions raided into France as far as the upper Rhône. Whatever brought it to an end (and possibly it was just because the Arabs were not much interested in European conquest, once away from the warm lands of the Mediterranean littoral), the Islamic onslaught in the west remains an astonishing achievement, even if Gibbon’s fanciful vision of Oxford teaching the Koran was never remotely near realization, at least not until our own time.

 

Roberts, J M; Westad, Odd Arne (2013-03-28). The Penguin History of the World: 6th edition (p. 343). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

 

I would like to see a court case or legislation successfully change the legal status of Islam in America from "religion" to "political ideology."  This would remove its legal protection as a religion under "separation of church and state" precedents.  This should make infiltration and dismantling easier.

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/06, 6:04am)



Post 2

Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 7:45amSanction this postReply
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Like you nailed what I have long believed.  Islam should be reclassified as an Ideology.  The only other way would be to remove freedom of religion.



Post 3

Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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I see "freedom of religion," to a degree, along with freedom of speech as statements for freedom of thought.  Getting rid of freedom of religion would be like throwing out our freedoms in hope of gaining security and the result would surely be that we'd end up with neither.

 

Religions, at least from my prospective, are all somewhat nutty.  Its like a group of people got together and said, "Let's make up some really nutty stuff, write it down on parchment paper and have a religion."  And someone else said, "Yeah, and lets make up some nonsensical rituals to practice once a week or so."  Why not worship an invisible tree frog, or someone's dead ancestor, or extraterrestial beings?  The problem isn't the religion as such.  The law needs to recognize, as closely as it can, the actions, and thereby the actors, that violate individual rights.  So, laws directed at a religion have to restrict themselves to that framework.

 

Islam is a valid religion (as nutty as any other) and it probably isn't the only one to ever have a political doctrine built into it.  What is needed is for congress to declare war (we ARE in a war, someone wake them up!) and the declaration needs to deal with the difficult issue of describing a war with any states, organizations or individuals who act upon radical Islam's call for violence and jihad.  Those are the actions, and thereby identifying the actors who are violating individual rights.

 

That is the legal status that is needed.  It would give separation between those who would never practice Islam in any way but peacefully and those who initiate force on behalf of their view of Islam, or support those who do.  That would preserve the freedom of religion, while restricting government issued force to those who are in the business of initiating force.

 

The cultural and ideological change that is needed is for the vast majority of peaceful Muslims to recognize that this political aspect of Islam is their problem to fix.  The pressures should mount, and will mount, till they change their religion, stripping out the calls for violence and all of the political aspects, or abandon it. Their religion, as it is now, is like a body carrying a parasite (jihad and sharia).  And it will be unhealthy and increasingly uncomfortable till they remove that parasite.

 

There isn't going to be any quick or easy end to this ugliness.  Not even on the tactical level.  Say that we all arm ourselves, and get some good training.  That will make the terrorists' use of guns ineffective.  So, they will just switch to bombs.  We are in an arms race - except that our side is acting like it isn't a race and hasn't started to run.  And the evolution won't be just more effective weapons, but more effective methods for delivery.  The important thing for us is to recognize that this can't be fought just with defensive moves.  We have to take the offensive AND we have to fight it ideologically and economically as well as politically and militarily.

 

[The jihadist movement is much like the progressive movement: They both see their ends as justifying the means.  The use of deception is justified.  They use a kind of fascist thought control (political correctness) - Islamists are just more extreme (say anything bad about Mahommed and it is off with your head.)  Both demonize their opponents.]



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Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
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If Congress declared the problem too difficult to sort and changed immigration law to forbid any Muslim from entering the United States, and refused to renew any expiring documents currently allowing them to live here, I would not complain.

 

People keep complaining that this attitude is "racist" and "discriminatory."  It is not racist but it is rationally discriminatory for the same reason immigration laws rationally discriminate against other sorts of troublemakers within the bounds of human abilities to know.  If Muslims seek someone to blame for such a policy, they can blame the caliphates and other support networks that continue to advance the violent aspects of Islam.  Once they clean their own house, we might reconsider such a discriminatory policy.

 

We have enough troublemakers born on American soil without importing them.



Post 5

Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

 

If congress passed a law forbiding any Muslim from entering the country there would be a number of problems.  It would be the start of the destruction of the freedom of religion clause of the first amendment.  That would be bad.  Second, it wouldn't work because bad actors would just say they were Christians, or atheists and the only Muslims kept out would be the honest, peaceful ones.  And before long, as this war continues, many Muslims - even the peaceful ones - wouldn't admit being Muslim because of mounting anger at anyone associated with Islam.  Third, it is still too defensive - I'm not against any defensive action that helps and is constitutional - but what we need is to mount a powerful offense.  Also, we currently have arrangements whereby 38 nations have a visa waiver (like France, Belgium, Sweden, Germany, etc.) - anyone holding one of those passports can just fly in - no visa, no vetting, nothing.  And anything that is successful at stopping someone with a visa will just encourage the bad actors to find other ways to get in.  We SHOULD be tightening up our defenses, our border security, ALL immigration paths, but the only real hope is to go on the offense (economically, ideologically, politiically, and militarily).

 

If this little person keeps trying to pick your pocket, do you keep trying to move your money to a different pocket after each theft, or smack him good and hard in the nose and put him in jail?  There is a whole world of difference in outcomes between a strong offense and the utter futility of endless attempts to shut this or that door as if a defense, by itself, could ever stop Islamic terrorism.

 

As this all continues, there is no doubt that honest, peaceful Muslims will feel more and more uncomfortable.  Some will abandon their religion to some degree, some will just pretend to the outside world that they aren't Muslim, some will blame Christians or the U.S., some will blame the radicals, and some will begin to agitate more and more to change Islam so as to drive the radicals out into the cold.  This is going to happen no matter what.  We will be seeing this all start very soon.

 

What our leaders could, and should do is to help facilitate that last choice - to support Muslim leaders in making changes to Islam, to increase those who blame the radicals, to decrease those who would blame the U.S. or Christians, to make it a struggle of good versus evil within Islam, a struggle that the Muslims need to fight.  Any change in our laws and policies should keep that ideological tactic in mind.

 

There are two extremes here that are both wrong:

1. Pretending that the terrorism isn't coming from Islam is one. 

2. Acting as if we need to direct actions against all Muslims. 

That vast majority of peaceful Muslims are the only force that can change Islam and that is the only long-term solution on the ideological front.



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Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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A start might be something like removing the tax exempt status of churches and mosques.



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Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 11:55amSanction this postReply
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Yes, Jules, many churches already cross the line into political activism via inflammatory political rhetoric.  As I understand it, they only get tax-exempt status for staying out of the political arena.  Why pretend they do that?  Remove the tax-exempt status and treat them like businesses subject to the same regulations.



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Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Removing religious tax exemption is just saying that the first amendment can be ignored and the constitution isn't important.  Congress would then be making laws about religion.  It would be deciding what is a religion and what isn't.  We Objectivists don't want any taxes at all.  We think up ways to get government smaller, hence less need for taxes, and even to the point where we can get rid of taxes all together with a minarchy supported by voluntary fees.

 

If we shifted to exlusively using consumer sales taxes to support government - outlawing any other taxes, then congress could only raise or lower the national sales tax rate (they should be prohibited from making exemptions or using any other kinds of taxes).  This would be a sensible way to ensure that religious organizations, churches, mosques, etc., all paid the same amount of taxes.

 

Remember that organizations and ideologies fight to get some control over government so that they can put the power of the government behind their ideology.  The only way to make that a non-starter is to effectively lock the government out of making laws regarding religion.  We used to have that, till the religious right started to agitate for laws that permitted religious expression in public places.  Everyone should have risen up stopped things like "in God we Trust" or prayer in school, etc.  When these waters are muddied, then the greatest loss is the sense that it is not okay for government to take sides in religious arguments.  An Islamic theocracy is nothing more than the wrong side totally winning the argument about letting government take sides in religion.



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Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 6:08pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, you said,

Removing religious tax exemption is just saying that the first amendment can be ignored and the constitution isn't important.  Congress would then be making laws about religion.  It would be deciding what is a religion and what isn't.

This is simply not true. By creating a exemption for churches, the government is essentially saying that religious organizations (and non-profits) ought to be given special treatment compared to for-profit businesses. I agree that most, if not all, taxes need to be abolished, income and property tax being the worst. But, in principle, creating an exception in the tax code is respecting an establishment of religion and disregards equality under the law.



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Sunday, December 6, 2015 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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Liam,

 

I understand what you're saying.  And as long as we have taxes on organizations, or any kind of income tax, it will be a no-win situation on the constitutionality almost no matter how you handle exemptions. 

 

If you tax all religions, it is a punitive legal act directed at religion as such.  And it wouldn't matter if it was a tax that was applied identically to all religions, and that it was identical to taxes on non-religious organizations.  All one church has to say is that if it weren't for that tax we could have continued instead of closing our doors.  I'll admit that is a weak argument - but we do have other organizations that we don't tax.  So, if congress doesn't tax some non-profits but it does tax religious organizations, there is no doubt that congress has passed laws regarding the free exercise of religion.  T'ain't free when the IRS can use guns to make you pay.

 

Suppose the IRS said, "Hey, what about we agree on this.  I'll only tax you 1 penny on the first $10,000,000?"  The church agrees.  Then next year the IRS raises it to a rate of 100% which forces the church to close.  And the IRS says, "We settled the precedent regarding the first amendment with that deal for a penny.  That set the new principle that the freedom of religion no longer has to be taken literally.  The rest was just an ajustment of the rate."

 

If you exempt one religion but not others, it is singleing it out for special favor which amounts to establishing a religion, if you exempt all of them it is neither punitive on any, nor favoring one.  I know that this is all weak tea... but the problem lies not so much with the first amendment, but with the concept of a government being able to make up any tax and apply it to anyone or any organization AND the concept of constitutionality as such.

 

You mentioned 'Equality under the law' which is usually applied to individuals.  And usually in the context of due process, or rights before criminal proceedings, or the takings clause, etc.  But if it were to be applied to taxation, then it would require a flat tax on all individuals and/or a flat tax on all organizations (no exemptions for non-profits).

 

We might disagree on the issue of a tax exemption being the least awful way to honor the first amendment, but we definitely do agree where you said: "...most, if not all, taxes need to be abolished, income and property tax being the worst."  I would add payroll taxes to those you listed as also being awful.



Post 11

Monday, December 7, 2015 - 3:36amSanction this postReply
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Two Syrian families entered the United States illegally at Laredo, Texas. (KVUE Austin story here. KRGV Weslaco, Texas, Rio Grande Valley here.) At our November 21 drill at Texas State Guard command headquarters, we were told verbally that these families paid $50,000 each to be smuggled across Mexico and into the USA.  These are obviously people of means. I believe that many if not most of the current refugees are producers who have the intention and means to leave an untenable situation.  You condemn them as "Muslims" without knowing anything of their actual beliefs and practices.

 

What could you, as an Objectivist, do to convince a secular person from an Arab/Islamic country that you are not a Crusader?  Is there a litmus test, a shibboleth, for secularism or humanism ... or transhumanism? 

 

Attempting to "solve" the "problem" of Syrian refugees by treating them as a collective is not rational. It is realistic and reasonable to take each individual on their own merits, measured against pro-life standards, seeking evidence of a lifestyle of initiative, education, and productivity.  Anything else is to punish a person now  for anything that you can imagine that they might do in the future.

 

Luke, we know from your own biographical sketches that you were raised in a fundamentalist Christian community. How do we know that you are not going to self-radicalize and blow up a women's clinic or shoot people at a same-sex wedding? Are you not one of Steve Wolfer's nutty religionists just sleeping among us? And how could you prove that you are not? 

 

 

LS: We have enough troublemakers born on American soil without importing them.

 

Do we have enough geniuses? Entrepreneurs? Inventors?  doctors... engineers... artists... writers... user interface designers... pet groomers... musicians... carpenters... accountants... and children who will grow up to create products and services that we cannot imagine ... 

 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/07, 3:37am)



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Monday, December 7, 2015 - 5:27amSanction this postReply
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Food for thought, guys, thanks.

 

That said, if another nation forbade me from entry because of my beliefs or background, that is their prerogative.

 

A Muslim colleague back in 1998 raised in Saudi Arabia informed me that his nation of birth will not grant entry to atheists but I have not verified this.



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Post 13

Monday, December 7, 2015 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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Marotta,

 

I believe that many if not most of the current refugees are producers who have the intention and means to leave an untenable situation.

 

Gee, it's too bad that your beliefs don't magically equal a proper vetting.  And you did say, "most of the current refugees" - so, we just take in the others at our expense, those non-producers, and terrorists?  Great policy.
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You condemn them as "Muslims" without knowing anything of their actual beliefs and practices.

 

Who are you talking to, Marotta?  And if it's me, then point out where I condemned someone in that fashion.  I consistently distinguised between Muslims who support violent jihad and those who don't.
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Attempting to "solve" the "problem" of Syrian refugees by treating them as a collective is not rational. It is realistic and reasonable to take each individual on their own merits, measured against pro-life standards, seeking evidence of a lifestyle of initiative, education, and productivity. 

 

First:  It is a problem because we are a welfare state and because some of the refugees are terrorists.


Second:  That is our problem and not theirs.  Their problems aren't for us to solve.  We don't have an obligation to make a home for them.


Third:  You clearly have your head up in the clouds and your feet off the ground if you think that the UN, our State Department, our immigration services or Homeland Security are going to vett with indepth individual interviews that measure against pro-life standards and can determine who is telling lies.  Not going to happen. 

 

What would happen is that poorly vetted people would come in at great expense to the taxpayers, a large portion would become government dependents, a portion would become productive, and a small percentage would be (or would become) terrorists and kill some of us.  Those of us who are rational know this.
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Anything else is to punish a person now  for anything that you can imagine that they might do in the future.

 

Perhaps you don't see how deeply altruistic it is to assert that anything other than conducting Marotta-style interviews of tens or hundreds of thousands of refugees and then granting them entrance into the country is punishment.  How did we, as a nation, acquire this obligation, this duty, to enslave ourselves this process?
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...one of Steve Wolfer's nutty religionists...

 

You've lied and called me a racist, a conservative, and now a 'religionist' - I've had it with your name calling - it amounts to defamation.  I'll request that you be put in dissent the next time.



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Post 14

Monday, December 7, 2015 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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I believe that many if not most of the current refugees are producers who have the intention and means to leave an untenable situation.

 

Then why not enter the country legally?



Post 15

Monday, December 7, 2015 - 4:49pmSanction this postReply
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Luke not only would they not grant you entrance but would hang or shoot you.



Post 16

Monday, December 7, 2015 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, once again, you misunderstand the obvious, taking offense for no good reason. 

 

MEM ...one of Steve Wolfer's nutty religionists...

 SW: You've lied and called me a racist, a conservative, and now a 'religionist' - I've had it with your name calling - it amounts to defamation.  I'll request that you be put in dissent the next time.

In point of fact, I was only quoting you.

 

SW in 3 above: Religions, at least from my prospective, are all somewhat nutty.  Its like a group of people got together and said, "Let's make up some really nutty stuff, write it down ...   

Islam is a valid religion (as nutty as any other) and it probably isn't the only one to...

 



Post 17

Monday, December 7, 2015 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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Deanna, as the lawful government of Syria is in deep disarray, getting a passport, and all the rest is simply not possible. If there were no civil war in Syria, many of those people would come here in the usual ways of other immigrants. Among the Syrian Americans are Paula Abdul, Steve Jobs, and Jerry Seinfeld. (See Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Americans.) But the civil war prevents the origination of valid immigration documents.

 

Coming to America as asylum-seekers or politicial refugees, they may or may not intend to settle here. Whatever their intentions, the reality may be different. In my old neighborhood, there was a tension between the old immigrants from before World War II, and the new arrivals, displaced persons or DPs. DPs did not intend to become Americans. They thought that they were going to be here temporarily until Eastern Europe was liberated from communism.  It turned out differently than that.  After communism fell, some few did go back. But they were about as successful as African-Americans who emigrated to Africa.



Post 18

Tuesday, December 8, 2015 - 5:36amSanction this postReply
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Donald Trump just published a press release "calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on" with current Muslims living in the United States who possess "great hatred towards Americans."



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Post 19

Tuesday, December 8, 2015 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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Picture if you will a barrel full of 10000 snakes.  Only 10 are actually poisonous.  Is it a wise policy to stick your arm into the barrel in order see which ones bite you or would the more prudent action be to carefully put a lid on the barrel.



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