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Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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Rand - Art is a barometer of culture, and a selective re-creation of the artists metaphysical perspective, what the artist considers significant.


How about some cultural, artistic depictions of the Malevolent & Benevolent Universe premise? We probably have notice a degradation from the Romantic to the Naturalistic style, since the 60's.

Cultural examples of Benevolent vs. Malevolent perspectives:

Romantic - Depicts the benevolent potential of heroic living. Has artistic, philosophical themes which can be cathartic, depicting consequences of chioces about conflicts, affirming and encouraging. Benevolent Universe: Good guys can win by virtue, and world is saved


(Old stuff) Untouchables, Perry Mason, Dragnet, et. John Wayne movies, Combat, Lone Ranger, Rifleman, Little House, Brady Bunch, Lost in Space

Mel Gibson (The Patriot), Star Wars (Luke, if not Vader)

Naturalistic - Depicts dirty-grey reality, Good guys win, but are crippled and world isn't saved.


Clint Eastwood (Good, Bad, Ugly, et. Dirty Harry)
Mel Gibson (Braveheart, Mad Max)
Shakespear - Julius Caesar, Macbeth, et.
Bible - King David, Jeptha (a renegade Mad-Max type), & many other prophets

Malevolent: Bad Guys win / World loses


Rand - We The Living
Falling Down
China Syndrome
Escape from New York / L.A.
Apocalypse Now

Pornographic - Tenuous plot, theme is experiencing emotion, not necessarily malevolent or benevolent, but premised on and designed to facilitate vicarious, 2nd hand experience of life, Walter Mitty escapism. Hero & other characters experience excitement & emotions. Maudlin, melodramatic.


Star Trek 1, 2 & 3, Arnold Schwarzenneger, Indiana Jones, Mel Gibson (Yes, good guys win, but plot is designed for action and melodrama, rather than action and sentimentality consequence of philosophical choices)

Propaganda - Theme is political and religious indoctrination. Can be either artistic and philosophical, or pornographic sentimental or satirical.


Bible
CNN news, Kieth Olberman, Bill Orielly
Norman Lear; All in the Family,
Little House (religious early years, political late 70's)
West Wing
Saturday Night Live
Dogbert's Newsletter
Family Guy
South Park



Post 1

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Scott:
     Boy, did you blow up some of *my* bubbles...to the point that I agreed with some of your listings.

     Thought-provoking post, but, any response from me would go into an 'article'-length essay...even where I agree.

:)

LLAP
J:D


Post 2

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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I have to agree with John Dailey.  It is a nice piece of work, Scott.  Obviously, you have given this a lot of thought.  I found the "pornographic" label interesting: Indiana Jones, in particular, is lush with action.  On the other hand, I do not find the Clint Eastwood movies as negative -- although they are harsh, to be sure.  (I think the dubbed soundtracks were the worst aspect.) 

I never liked The Rifleman.  It was too dirty and dark all the time and really depressing.  Gunsmoke was often the same way.  A close friend with deep insight into fiction like Gunsmoke and I watched a few with him, but it never grabbed me.  I always felt sorry for everyone. 

You have Little House in two different categories.

Dragnet is funny.  We remember it the way you do: moral certainty; good guys win.  But I got some of these on DVD recently, and the early ones, the black and white with Frank Smith as Joe Friday's partner, were not so clear cut.  There was some sympathy for the perpetrator in a few of them.  Also, of course, from an objective point of view, not everything the cops pursued involved a victim.  Later, when Jack Webb became the producer and the series was in color, then it took on the rightwing style we remember.


Post 3

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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I'm afraid I didn't give it much thought, I just started putting down what came to mind, when thinking through the filter of philosophical premise vs sentimental premise, and Benevolent vs. Malevolent.

Some content by artists, like Rand, express their ideas through their characters. And are enobling, depicting consequences, and the nature of reality, whether malevolent or benevolent, or like reality is, both.

Others, like many modern stars that have success (Shattner, Schwarzenegger, Gibson, et.) are premised on giving the Walter Mittys a new template to fantasize in, and are degrading in that they afford opportunity to escape reality, choosing and living.

Many of the programs and movies don't fit into a category, (looking how I classified them, I can easily refute) but should rather be scored with a matrix.

Little House I find interesting. It seems its on cable all the time, on different stations. I watched it in grammar school, but didn't like it when it "changed". Occasionally now at night or lunch (different decades are on at 4:00 AM and 1:00 PM) I can identify the change, which also mirrors a cultural change from the 70's - 80's.

Programming seemed to stop depicting the conflicts of good & evil and adversity in life, and begin political activism, propaganda. Many themes are present - diversity, handicaps (celebration and glorification of the crippled, weak, dependent and pathetic), tolerance for misbehavior and being "friends" rather than parents to children.

Most of all perhaps, contriving plots for display of emotions for star-worshipping 2nd handers to vicariously experience, rather than making emotions a consequence of actions taken on ideas.

When I was young, I though it was stupid. Now I can identify what I thought was melodramatic was thin, superficial opportunities to feel and not think, to experience living in a phantasy, rather than a cathartic identification.

Rand was right on about art being a barometer of culture. It depicts who we think we are, and who we want to be. In looking back at John Wayne and Little House to South Park, Hollywood has gone way too far on their toxic fuel.

I thought I would provoke some comment by putting Rand's "We the Living" in a Malevolent Universe, since IIRC she said its theme was how (altruist) systems destroy the best of the young.



Post 4

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

The Romantic/Naturalistic/Subnaturalistic trichotomy is distinct from (though with some relationship to) the Benevolent Universe Premise/Malevolent Universe Premise dichotomy. Go back and reread the things she said about Dostoevsky in RM for an explication of this.

For example, the series Firefly and its recent motion picture sequel Serenity are extremely Romantic, but a good case could be made that they are not entirely based on the benevolent universe premise. Batman Begins might be classified similarly, and has a similar emotional palette, though perhaps it could be argued that in it benevolence triumphs in the end.

All in the Family in its first season was merely a successful and original comedy without the propagandistic overtones it acquired when Leftists jumped on its bandwagon.

What do you think Saturday Night Live and South Park are propagandizing for?

The most consistently and gloriously benevolent mass art in the world is currently coming out of Bombay, not the place most Objectivists would have looked for it.

-Bill

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Monday, November 14, 2005 - 12:56amSanction this postReply
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William,

OK, I'll re-read RM. I remember Rand discussing novelists like Dostoevsky. IIRC she admired his style, if not dark content.

Comcast dropped SciFi, and I'll see Serenity on video in a couple months.

What do you think Saturday Night Live and South Park are propagandizing for?

The most consistently and gloriously benevolent mass art in the world is currently coming out of Bombay, not the place most Objectivists would have looked for it.


I stopped surfing past SNL during Clinton's impeachment. Its hard to remember specifics, just that they ridicule the right far more than the left.

Though Southpark often ridicules the left - environmentalists, Barbara Striesand, et., that they need to is telling in itself.

America has come along way. Reminds me of the (Hindu?) parable of the father, son and donkey. Donkey carriers burden on road, people pass & say father & son are cruel to donkey. Father carries burden, people pass saying son is wicked. Son carrier burden, people pass condemn father as wicked. Father & son carry donkey and burden, people ridicule stupid fools carrying pack animal and pack.

Two wrongs don't make a right, eye for eye makes the whole world blind. Quotas are reverse discrimination - premise is racism, the same aristocrat theives robbing Peter to pay Paul.

That's Southpark. The same depraved Hollywood propagandists ridiculing the consequences of their propaganda.

The Horror, the horror!

BTW, What comes out of Bombay?

Scott

Post 6

Monday, November 14, 2005 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I have not watched SNL much in recent years, but historically it was a bastion of even-handedly mocking the pretenses of both parties and of anyone who combined pomposity with power and/or faddishness.  It is not nearly as funny or cutting-edge as it used to be, but I wouldn't call it propaganda.  It has never been particularly kind to the Establishment.

South Park is celebrated by many Objectivists for ridiculing any number of current fallacies with edgy, original humor.  In this is fills a niche similar to the one filled by SNL in the 70's, so I can't see it as propaganda either.  And of course it is one of the few institutions in American society with the courage to whip up the national spirit against the rampant Canadian threat.
What comes out of Bombay?
Beautiful films that are romantic in the conventional sense as well as Romantic in the Randian sense.  There are many such that deserve a larger audience among Objectivists in the West.  See Veer-Zaara (Veer and Zaara, 2004), Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham (Sometimes Happy, Sometimes Sad, 2001), Kal Ho Naa Ho (Tomorrow May Never Be, 2003), Dil Se (From the Heart, 1998), Bunty Aur Babli (Bunty and Babli, 2005) and The Ballad of Mangal Pandey (2005) as examples.

-Bill


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Monday, November 14, 2005 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Are those available on DVD?


Post 8

Monday, November 14, 2005 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

     All are on DVD with optional English subtitles.

     Some may be ordered directly from the production house at http://www1.yashrajfilms.com/

     All of them may be ordered on DVD from www.erosentertainment.com or viewed via online download pay-per-view from the same site.  They also have VHS tapes available and disks/tapes in PAL format (instead of NTSC) for our friends in other countries.

-Bill


Post 9

Monday, November 14, 2005 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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Hang on a minuite mate...
Malevolent: Bad Guys win / World loses
Escape from New York / L.A.
Come off it! Not in the Down Under versions they're not!

Snake Plissken pounds Che Guevara and then utterly shuts down overbearing government control and then walks away into the sunrise a free man (keeping his cool new outfit) That's not a win/win for you?


Post 10

Monday, November 14, 2005 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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Haven't seen that movie in a lot of years, but that sure sounds like the version I saw...

Post 11

Monday, November 14, 2005 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

You can also check with your friendly neighborhood Indo-Pak grocery store, if you have one. A lot of them keep DVDs for rent behind the counter.

Catering to the Bollywood rental market here in Texas we have Kangan Video, (which was featured in _Where's the Party, Yaar?_, a movie that was shot entirely in the Houston area.)

-Bill

Post 12

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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Mmm, Gibson in The Patriot, as memory serves, did not play a particularly romantic hero. I remember being very disappointed in it, especially after Braveheart, due to Gibson's less than enthusiastic depiction of revolutionary heroism. I stand to be corrected.

The Untouchables film from the mid-80s was good romantic cinema even though it featured govt agents enforcing immoral laws. It was the relationships between the main characters that were wonderful. Remember, in Braveheart, the Scots weren't fighting for a libertarian state, just independence from England. Robert the Bruce may have been just as bad as Longchamps in the long run.

This whole subject is a bit like music. I enjoy all forms and I think it comes down to the sense of life the work evokes within you. Is it positive or negative? Is it life affirming or misanthropic? Does it paint man as a troubled & flawed creature incapable of redemption or as a being capable of rising above his circumstances?

Ross

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Post 13

Monday, November 21, 2005 - 11:19pmSanction this postReply
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William,
South Park is celebrated by many Objectivists for ridiculing any number of current fallacies with edgy, original humor.


I can appreciate some of the satire, but I find it more insulting than not.

First Hollywood social-engineered themes (All in the Family, et al) depicted Americans as stupid, superstitious, bigots, monogamous, sober, homo-phobic gay-bashing, polluting, greedy, dishonest white males and celebrated the tolerant, multi-ethnic, judgement-averse, partying, promiscuous, effeminate, tree-hugging socialist liberals.

Today Hollywood social-engineering produces themes (Southpark) ridiculing environmentalists (global-warming flood), animal-lovers, metro-sexual, Wallmart (big corporation), Paris Hilton promiscuity, drug using, et.

Ah, what were the words of the prophet?
http://www.cultwatch.com/Devotional7.html :
(Matthew 11:16-19; Luke 7:31-35)
To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
17 “We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, [a funeral song] and you did not mourn.”
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking[1], and they say, “He has a demon.”
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, “Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.” But wisdom is proved right by her actions.
...
A JUDGMENTAL GENERATION CONDEMNED

Jesus noticed children at play outdoors and drew a parallel with his contemporaries, or “this generation”. They were like complaining and wilful children arguing with one another because some wanted to play a wedding game, and some wanted to a play a funeral game, and some refused to play at all, so the children could not be satisfied with either game. They could not be pleased with anything.


Sorry for the reference to the mythical rebel-hippy Jesus, I can't remember a good Rand quote, although a Hindu? parable about a father and son with a pack-mule comes to mind. Myths are often profound cultural expressions of truth.

The sense I get from mocking Hollywood satire is, "you're extreme, wrong, stupid and evil". Mockers have 20/20 hinesight, always have criticism to offer after the fact on what you should have done, have an excuse why things would be different if you'd just do it their way.

Rick
Snake Plissken pounds Che Guevara and then utterly shuts down overbearing government control and then walks away into the sunrise a free man (keeping his cool new outfit) That's not a win/win for you?


That isn't the way I remember "Escape from LA". Yes, Snake triumphs over the bad guys; Che and the government agents, but he also uses the EMP weapons to destroy the whole worlds technological infrastructure.

The premise behind technology (tool) hating is the belief that humanity is either evil or tragically flawed and unworthy of the power over nature technology confers. Ted (Uni-bomber) Kazinski and eco-freaks come to mind.

In the first movie "Escape from New York", Snake destroys the tape with fusion information that, with the president, was suppose to prevent a nuclear war with China.

So in both movies the world is, if not destroyed, technically pounded and set back several hundred years.

Like Clint Eastwood and Mad-Max movies, there's a counter-culture theme that the system is corrupt, and the heroes in a corrupt system are the rebels.

At least in the Road Warrior movies, there is hope when the children re-start civilization out of the ashes of corruption.

Ross,
Gibson in The Patriot, as memory serves, did not play a particularly romantic hero. I remember being very disappointed in it, especially after Braveheart, due to Gibson's less than enthusiastic depiction of revolutionary heroism
....
This whole subject is a bit like music. I enjoy all forms and I think it comes down to the sense of life the work evokes within you...Is it positive or negative? Is it life affirming or misanthropic? Does it paint man as a troubled & flawed creature incapable of redemption or as a being capable of rising above his circumstances?


Later Gibson, Schwarzenneger, Eastwood movies, as much other TV, all give me the same sense; that the plot has been contrived (by the celebrity star-director) to once again depict the celebrity as heroic for the celebrities fan's vicarious living.

In contrast, Rand doesn't create plots to depict celebrities as heroic, but creates plots to depict heroism by the way her characters triumph.

(The Ayn Rand Letter; "Perry Mason Finally Loses")
"to appear natural, they require unself-consciousness. A hero is not conscious of being heroic: to him, it is just a matter of being himself."

In the Romantic style, man has the ability to triumph by reason, choice and action. In the naturalistic style, the capricious gods of Nature has arbitrarily cast some men as heroic celebrities and others as losers and bad guys.

Scott

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