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Friday, May 19, 2006 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand talked about how in a truly free society, all government funding would be completely voluntary. Now, we all know that we cannot force everyone to act rationally. Do you think that this idea would work, especially in a country as large as America? Ideally I would like to see people taxed for police and military purposes only, since those two are necessary to uphold individual rights, and I would favor a flat tax of course. I like Rand's idea of paying a fee to legalize a contract. The individuals involved would pay a certain percentage of the contracts worth, in return for the governments services, i.e. resolving disputes through the courts. In my county we used to require people to display a sticker in their windshield as proof of having paid their "car taxes". I was fine with this because the people that used the roads were the ones paying for them. They have since done away with this, which leads me to believe that now, everyone is being taxed to fund transportation, regardless of who is using the roads or not. Do you think that it would be possible to completely privatize our roads and highways, and if so, how would we fund it?

Post 1

Friday, May 19, 2006 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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Can one separate the use of force from interactions between men? Can it ever be that the use of force is not a factor or could be left out of the equation in interactions between men?

What is your objective?

Post 2

Friday, May 19, 2006 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Can one separate the use of force from interactions between men? Can it ever be that the use of force is not a factor or could be left out of the equation in interactions between men?

What is your objective?
I believe that we can remove the element of physical force from our government (compulsory taxation), however  I don't think we will see it in our lifetime. It will take a long time to reverse the massive welfare state that we have created, and I don't advocate doing it all overnight, I think that would be too much. As far as removing the element of force from every interaction that occurrs between individuals, I don't know if that will ever happen. I do regard man as essentially good, i.e. a heroic being, but I have also come to accept that not every man is good. Some choose to be bad, and I don't know that we will ever be able to eradicate that. My objective was to hear some ideas about the best way to reduce the current welfare state.


Post 3

Friday, May 19, 2006 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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I think a small flat tax for overall defense - police, armed forces, etc. is going to be necessary until such time as the rest of the world catches up and reaches some basic level of overall civilization.  Over time, the need will decrease and in all likelihood and eventually it could go away.

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Post 4

Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan asked,
Do you think that it would be possible to completely privatize our roads and highways, and if so, how would we fund it?
Yes, and we'd fund it by user fees, which is already being done in countries as diverse as Singapore, Norway, Israel, Brazil, Chile and Canada. How would it work? Well, for example, on a toll road in the province of Ontario, Canada, the rear license plates of all vehicles are photographed when they enter and exit the road. A bill is mailed monthly for the driver's usage, similar to a utility bill. Lower charges are levied on the road's users who carry transponders. A transponder is an electronic device mounted in or on a customer's vehicle to deduct toll fares from a pre-paid account as the vehicle passes through the toll barrier. Another method of identifying and billing customers relies on GPS technology (satellite global positioning systems).

This approach is eminently workable, and privatizing the roads would improve traffic flow, because it would be in the interest of road owners to engage in peak load pricing, meaning that they would have a profit incentive to charge the highest fees during the busiest times of the day, like rush hour, when the demand for road usage is relatively inelastic, and to charge lower fares at other, less busy times, when the demand is relatively elastic. The higher fares during rush hour would tend to reduce or eliminate traffic congestion, because drivers who didn't have to use the roads during that time of day would select other less costly times to do their shopping, etc. This is the method of allocating scarce resources employed in other sectors of the private market, which equilibrates supply and demand and thereby eliminates shortages and surpluses.

Socialist economies employ top-down bureaucratic management that does not rely on the profit motive or the price system, with the result that these economies are besieged by constant shortages and surpluses. Remember the long lines typical of the Soviet economy? Well, you have the same thing today with the long lines of cars clogging roads and freeways. The shortage in this case is not of potatoes, shoes or vodka, but of road space in which demand chronically exceeds supply. Privatizing the roads would tend to eliminate this shortage and the long lines of cars crawling towards their destination, just as privatizing socialist economies have eliminated the shortage of commodities plaguing their government run systems and the long lines of customers waiting for the chance to buy under-priced, under-supplied food and clothing.

Of course, no one wants to pay higher prices for road usage, but they are already paying for it in the lost time, stress and frustration of being caught in rush-hour traffic on a daily basis. Moreover, people who don't drive cars or drive very seldom are being taxed to pay for something they don't use. User fees are a much fairer system of financing the roads than taxes are.

Privatizing the roads and charging drivers user fees is just what the doctor ordered. It is the perfect remedy for a chronically sick and ailing sector of our economy.

- Bill

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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Of course, no one wants to pay higher prices for road usage, but they are already paying for it in the lost time, stress and frustration of being caught in rush-hour traffic on a daily basis.


Bill, not only are they paying in lost time and extra gas usage for that time cars are idling in the interstate "parking lot" (which alone is a huge economic cost for Americans from what I understand) I would be inclined to think your average American pays more in taxes now that fund roads than they would to a private company running the roads!

Post 6

Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 11:22pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan Fauth asked: "Ideally I would like to see people taxed for police and military purposes only ...  Do you think that it would be possible to completely privatize our roads and highways, and if so, how would we fund it? "

The privatization of the roads has been discussed here at length.  Use the Search to check this site for the discussions.  Basically, yes, the roads have been and can be privatized.

The tougher question involves police and courts -- and paying for them. In the discussions on "Police Forces and Courts of Law" I have pointed out several times that ALREADY only one patroller in three is tax-funded.  Two-thirds of the money spent on protection is invested in the private sector.  Similarly, the American Arbitration Association already handles millions of decisions a year.  If you buy a home in America through a realtor and if you have the contract insured for title, you will find that this paperwork most typically specifies ARBITRATION (not courts) as your first remedy. 

Objectvism teaches that the greatest social changes start with a philosophical revolution, not a political one.  People already choose private security and private arbitration over government alternatives -- at least people with MEANS do. Govco is for the poorest (most socialized) people. 

That being so, in the Objectivist future you envision, I would ask WHAT police and courts of law?  And: why should I be taxed to pay for them?


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Post 7

Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 11:52pmSanction this postReply
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Good points, John! Now why didn't I think of that?! :) Yeah, you're using up all that extra gas as well, and private funding is certain to be more economical.

One other thing that occurred to me: Because the cars are on the road for a longer period of time, there's more pollution now than there would be if the roads were privately owned and operated. But don't expect your average Green to support road privatization. According to ecologists, only the government can protect us from pollution! I wonder if these nature lovers ever visited the Soviet Union. Their pollution made ours pale by comparison.

Economist Murray Feshbach, author of Ecocide in the USSR: Health and Nature Under Siege, reports that during the '90's, there were almost two major oil and gas accidents every day in Russia: approximately 700 major oil and gas spills per year, where major is defined as 10,000 or more gallons spilled, and about 25,000 minor spills a year. The reason was the infrastructure and its the lack of repair and maintenance. And get this: Fifty percent of all hospitals in Russia did not have hot water; twenty percent had no water at all and about twenty-five percent did not have any sewage connection. So much for socialized medicine!

Then, of course, there was Chernobyl, which was itself due to shoddy maintenance and repair.

Three quarters of the surface water in Russia was polluted with only fifty percent of the water being drinkable. Underground aquifers were heavily polluted with toxic metals, chemicals and waste.

The more government ownership you have, the worse the health of the economy and the environment. The less, the better. It is time that we privatized the roads not only to improve the quality and efficiency of transportation and to lower the cost of road maintenance and repair, but also to reduce air pollution and the wasteful consumption of gasoline.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 5/20, 11:54pm)


Post 8

Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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Bill (and John), good points on the intractable inferiority of 'social democracy'.

Ed


Post 9

Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Excellent points Bill. I've learned that communist countries are and were the worst environmental offenders. Have you read the "Skeptical Environmentalist" from Bjorn Lomborg?

Post 10

Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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Thanks Ed and John. I have The Skeptical Environmentalist, and have consulted it from time to time, but I have not sat down and read it form cover to cover. I'm sure I could profit by doing so. It's an oft quoted and oft cited work. I especially liked his point about there being no overpopulation problem to worry about, given projections that the world's population will not exceed 11 billion. I think it's around 6 billion now, isn't it?

- Bill

Post 11

Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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6.5 B, Bill ...

================
Global Population Profile: 2002 is the latest published compendium and analysis of data on population, fertility, mortality, contraceptive use, and related demographic topics by the U.S. Census Bureau. It includes a special chapter focusing in HIV/AIDS in the Developing World.

Population Clocks

U.S. 298,795,057
World 6,517,366,098
04:14 GMT (EST+5) May 22, 2006
================
From:
 
Headed to (but not past) 11 B.
 
Ed


Post 12

Monday, May 22, 2006 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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The privatization of the roads has been discussed here at length.  Use the Search to check this site for the discussions.

I am new to the site, so I apologize. I looked for the search option, but could not find it, could somone steer me to it?

Post 13

Monday, May 22, 2006 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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On the main www.rebirthofreason.com page, in the left column, below the current poll, there is an 'Objectivist search engine' area. You can enter search terms in standard Google form, and choose 'Search this site only' to search this site. This works pretty well, though unfortunately I don't think it's picking up some of the older SOLOHQ era material.


Post 14

Monday, May 22, 2006 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
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Unfortunately, I don't think the search engine will help you very much if you don't know the title of the thread.

In any case, the title is "Forcing an individual to help another," and it's under the Dissent Forum, second from the bottom in the current thread list. Go to Post 52, which is where the discussion begins.

It's another of those tangential threads that bears little if any connection to the original subject. Too bad there wasn't a separate thread devoted to Private Roads, for those interested in this issue. It's a shame to have it buried under an ostensibly unrelated title that no one can find even if they know it's been discussed.

- Bill

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Post 15

Monday, May 29, 2006 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan- I won't get into the road question; there are interesting details to discuss on how it could work or how to get there, but the general aspects appear well covered here. As for the other part of your original post:

"Ayn Rand talked about how in a truly free society, all government funding would be completely voluntary. Now, we all know that we cannot force everyone to act rationally. Do you think that this idea would work, especially in a country as large as America? Ideally I would like to see people taxed for police and military purposes only, since those two are necessary to uphold individual rights, and I would favor a flat tax of course."

The end goal - the ideal - has to be payment for government services via only voluntary or contractual means. A minimal government involving coercive taxation to fund only a court system and (otherwise defensive-only) law enforcement and military would absolutely be a tremendous improvement from today. However, it could only be a waypoint - either on the way to non-coercive funding, or back to a very non-minimal State. Any form of coercive taxation contradicts the ethical principles underlying laissez-faire capitalism; if not eliminated, such taxation would be the seed for such a minimal government to easily grow back into Leviathan.


Post 16

Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 5:20amSanction this postReply
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1.  It is said that a national lottery was one of the early suggestions from some of the founders of the republic.  I am not sure about that, given their opposition to gambling as a vice. 

2.  I do find this from objectivisit Amber Pawlik:
Many Objectivists claim that in a "rational" society; all individuals should be allowed to initiate payments to the government of their choosing thus exchanging money for governmental services in a free market transation. This method of voluntary taxation is the arbitrary method. Citizens can choose which government their donation will go to, thus it is entirely possible that more than one government can exist. This method is one in which the government that citizens fund is arbitrary, the amount that they will pay is arbitrary, and thus what government exists and how stable it exists would be arbitrary. This method is an irrational and impractical idea. Having a government "voluntarily" paid for, with its citizens voluntarily initiating to pay for their government, would defeat the purpose of a government, and would turn the government into a market function. The existence of the government would be dependent on pleasing its customers. Who will determine what the government is? The customers. If the customers want to prohibit drugs, tax the rich, or institutue slavery -- that is what will happen. The government, operating like any business, would be in the business of pleasing as many people as possible with the biggest donations. Who would stop citizens from choosing different governments? This method of paying for a government, in which citizens could choose and pay for whichever government they wanted, is identical in nature to free-market anarchism. Indeed, arbitrarily paying for the government and free-market anarchism are not merely similar, they are exactly the same. This method is free-market anarchism.
http://www.amberpawlik.com/Funding.htm
3.  Personally, I have no problem with a national lottery.  I do not care if gambling is a vice.  However, it does put the government into the gaming business.  Why not make money from a government steel mill, then people can voluntarily support the government by buying steel?  See?  That does not work, does it? A national lottery commits the same error. 

4.  Ayn Rand suggested that corporations could pay a fee to have their contracts certified. That sounds good if you are thinking of U.S. Steel and General Motors.  However, we live now -- and really we lived then -- not in a world of USS and GM but of home businesses and self-employed individuals. That means that we are not entitled by right to protection via the courts, but must pay for it up front.  It would make "handshakes" unenforceable -- and as Alan Greenspan (and later Newt Gingrich) pointed out in touting the ethics of capitalism, much business is done on the telephone, i.e, via "handshake." 

Further, it would make the government aware of every transaction -- whether or not the deal ever generated a problem requiring adjudication. 

You could not buy something from Amazon (or TOC or ARI), without at least having the option to click the "Enforce" radio button and send some of the money to the goverment as "insurance" that the supplier will actually deliver and the buyer actually pay -- which is what PAYPAL does now.  So, again, we would have the government operating in a market. 

(In fact, adjudication and defense are thriving markets today, whether you are aware of them or not.  That, however, is a different topic.)

5.  A flat tax is necessarily regressive, falling heaviest on those least able to pay.  For those people the few cents here and there are the difference between some joy and no joy.  Read what Ayn Rand said about the importance of lipstick to a girl working as a sales clerk.  A regressive tax takes the girl's lipstick away -- unless she does without something else.  And it is a brutal fact of poverty that rent, etc., being more or less fixed, the only variable in the budgets of most poor people is foodRegressive taxes take food off the table.

6.I traveled in one state (Virginia, I think) where food and clothing were exempt from sales tax, but that created a complicated schedule of allowable goods, so that a plain white t-shirt was not taxed, but one with a corporate logo was taxed.  In Ohio (I think), if you go to McD and take the food out, it falls under "groceries" and is not taxed, but if you eat in it is the "luxury" of a restaurant and is taxed... and in Michigan (sorry, I am not aware of the cents I get nicked for -- it happens so often) if I am correct, the situation is the opposite.  Taxation is theft -- of logic.

7.  Personally -- hold on -- I favor a progressive income tax.  (Bam!)  I know it got out of control there for a while, but that is a different problem entirely.  Right now, in America, the top 1% of wage earners ($1.2 million pa and above) pay 32% of taxes, the top 5% pays 51.4%, and the top 10% pay 63.5% and the top 20% pay 78%. (Congressional Budget Office 2001.)  The lowest two quintiles pay next to nothing or negative rates. The "middle class" (so-called, i.e., the middle two quintiles) pays about 10% less than its "fair share."  This works out well.  Those who can afford taxes pay them.  Those who benefit most from society pay the most for the benefits.  Since the rich control the goverment, they get to say who pays what and they decided to pay more, being the nice people they are.  The evil of the income tax -- as most governmental evils -- reared its ugly head during a time of increased democracy and populism.  That is an inherent danger.  Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. Wilson seized the railroads and radio sets.  No system of government is perfect.  Some are obviously better than others, but all have weak points and democracy is the weakpoint of a republic.  Short of that caveat, a progressive income tax is the most equitable way to pay for a constitutionally limited government in a free society.  (Sorry, I know that pill was bitter, but now that it is swallowed, we can all feel better.)


Post 17

Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 8:52amSanction this postReply
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Gambling is a 'vice' only to the religionists, since 'vice' to them equals 'sin'.....

Post 18

Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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I traveled in one state (Virginia, I think) where food and clothing were exempt from sales tax, but that created a complicated schedule of allowable goods, so that a plain white t-shirt was not taxed, but one with a corporate logo was taxed. 
I'm not sure when you traveled to Virginia, if that was in fact the state, but currently just about everything is taxed here.


Post 19

Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Excuse my ignorance, Michael, but your replies have got me baffled. It seemed to me that in your first post you were advocating anarcho-capitalism, and now you are arguing against it? I must have misunderstood you. As far as a progressive income tax, why not have a flat tax, but exclude the poorest of the poor from any taxation at all? I won't go into personal financial details, but my wife and I do not make a whole lot of money, (we're both in school though, so it's not permanent), but we can still afford to spend money on pleasure. It just seems to me, that if  you argue for a progressive tax, on the grounds that a flat-tax would unjustly burden the poor, then you are arguing  for a policy which is anti-productive achievement, and pro need-based altruism. That seems to conflict with objectivism.

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