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Post 20

Saturday, October 7, 2006 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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The working definition for 'human' (or, more generally, for potential science-fictiony non-human people) which I've been using lately, is based on the "Trader Principle". Several days ago, as part of a collaborative storytelling group, I wrote somebody saying, "'Person'hood is easy to define - if you can choose whether or not you want to trade me a banana for a backrub, or some play-time for some programming, or anything for anything else, it's in /everyone/'s own best self-interest to treat you as a person."


Post 21

Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Daniel Eliot Boese wrote:
The working definition ... is based on the "Trader Principle". ... if you can choose whether or not you want to trade me a banana for a backrub... best self-interest to treat you as a person."

See the Topic, "Individuality and Determinism" in RoR Science.
It may well be that many people in our world today actually have no conscious self as you and I understand that.  In another criminology class, we saw a PBS Frontline about Nathaniel Abraham, the Pontiac 11-year old tried for Murder One.  He was the most innocent-looking boy you can imagine, his face showing sadness at being locked up, but basically nothing deep or troubling or joyful, just innocent -- untouched.  Watching the video, I wondered what was inside his head.  In my paper for the assignment, I said that he was as close to Rousseau's "state of nature" as is possible in a city. 
Boese's proposal is a Turing Test. You might not know directly whether you are communicating with a human or a program (or a chimpanzee or a porpoise or a Martian) but as long as you can "get what you want" i.e., communicate and thereby trade, then the other party is a de facto "human." 
What if you cannot?  What if you are talking to an "animatron" i.e., a device with covering that makes it look human and whose internal components make it act human, but, being a machine, it is so constrained that it is only a complicated automobile, not a sentient being.

What if you found yourself on a planet of such beings?  What if there were some animatrons and some humans?  You could not sort them out taxonomically, because they all "look" human.  You would have to use Turing Tests. 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 11/22, 8:22pm)


Post 22

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
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Biologically, anyone who can either actually or potentially reproduce with another member of the population named as Homo sapiens, or any descendent of such a being, is human. I suggest Ernst Mayr's What Evolution Is for those who wish to understand the fundamentals of biology from a brilliant man with an objective psycho-epistemology. The proper question is whether all humans are people, and whether any non-humans are.

The only thing the "Turing Test" establishes is the intelligence of the interrogator. The fact that someone might be tricked into believing that, or be foolish enough to believe that a simulation of consciousness is conscious says nothing whatsoever about the simulation. Neither believing nor being fooled "makes it so." The Turing test is vicious nonsense, and its only proper use is as a quip to on-line trolls, as in" "Are you really a person on this list, or am I the unwitting subject of a Turing Test?"

Ted Keer, 23 November, 2006, USA

Those who can identify this image are most likely human.

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 11/23, 12:59pm)


Post 23

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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The problem with the Turing Test is that it assumes that intelligence is reducible to Turing-like operators in that each step of an intelligent agent's operation, there are computational systems working away to 'solve the problem.'

As much as I think the Chinese Room argument by Searle is very good, but I don't agree with his idea that Intentionality is the source of intelligence. I think that's more of a cop-out than an answer. And that the answer itself will be found in looking at natural computation [Non-Turing Computation] for the answer to the formation of intelligences such as ours.

-- Bridget

Post 24

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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Bridget,

The Turing Test comes down to "if you can fool a human into thinking you are conscious, then you actually are conscious. I don't understand the import of what you are conveying with your "separate operators" statement. If you wish to elaborate, please do.

I read Searle in the 1980's at school and read his most recent book as well. I find that his criticisms are usually cogent, but find that his admitted lack of answers himself is frustrating. He seems to be at least one of the less deluded people working in theory of mind.

To restate my position, Strong AI is false. Consciousness is an emergent property of neural systems which are ultimately integrated from the bottom up, i.e., sensation>perception.abstraction.critical self-awareness. I find the issue of qualia to be the most enigmatic, and find that people who think mere symbol manipulation without actual analogs of biological sense data are very mistaken. Logic gates carrying out algorithms may result in impressive computing capacities, but without contact to the real world, mere symbol manipulation will never equal actual awareness.

I will make the observation tha most electrical engineers and computer scientists have a "floating abstract" view of what consciousness is. Neurologists and Psychologists like Sacks, Damasio, and Ramachandran are better on these issues, but they tend not to address the nonsense put forth in other fields. I find that every person who wishes to understand consciousness should read ITOE, as well as Kelley's Evidence. Neither expressly deals with AI, but their arguments show what nonsense strong AI is.

Ted

Ted

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Post 25

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 8:40pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff Hawkins' book os a good one to read regarding intelligence and AI..
http://www.amazon.com/Intelligence-Jeff-Hawkins/dp/0805078533/sr=8-1/qid=1164602336/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-1157340-5183330?ie=UTF8&s=books


Post 26

Monday, November 27, 2006 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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I most strongly second Robert's recommendation of Hawkin's On Intelligence. I have to admit that I have read half way through it and then left it at a relative's. Kind of ironic. I haven't finished it, but he seems to be one of the best non-biologically trained thinkers on the subject. It is rare for me to get half way through any such book without the author's non-sequiturs driving me to frustration. I can't wait to get back to it.

Ted

Post 27

Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 4:43amSanction this postReply
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In numismatics, we get a lot of argument about the grading of Mint State coins, but we start those arguments with, "Look, everyone knows what a VF Indianhead cent looks like..."

So, too, here.  Forty years ago, the (just one) "Eliza" program was a novelty.  Twenty years ago, Eliza programs were shareware.  Once you see my computer running my Eliza program -- absent any other sensors or analogous simulcra-like inputs, or whatever -- you have to say, "It is a program, not a being."  That is the Very Fine Indianhead Cent of this problem. 

But if you want to go that route... start adding inputs.  Given a sufficient brain and sufficient senors and effectors you have a physical being that can interact with its environment. So, there is that whole line of discussion.

However, this line of discussion is different.  Given that some beings are featherless bipeds but lacking a sense of self, a "voice in their heads," do they deserve so-called "natural rights" any more or less than other apes, or porpoises, or whales, or whatever creature you find who does evidence a sense of self? 

How do you know if a being has a sense of self?  Respect for others would be one way.  See the case cited above of the juvenile delinquent Nathaniel Abraham.  Then, consider those who call for taxing the rich to pay for social programs.  We Objectivisits grant those people a status they may not deserve.  I have people like that in my college classes.  They vocalize when they hear verbal cues.  The instructor says, "The law gives public schools their in loco parentis status on the same theory that juvenile courts act parens patriae."  And that is the Pavlovian cue for three women to tell the class about the time the principal of their child's school did something they did not like.  I submit that I can get the same reflex by holding a Doggie Treet in front of Rover.  It is just that the admittedly larger brain of the humanoid allows a more complex vocalization.

For those who are truly human, the echoic responses of the humanoids sound like the concept formations that we know internally.  So, we grant these creatures the same status we take to ourselves.  That, however, is a mistake. 

The consequence comes when Atlas shrugs.  Would you risk your life if you saw someone drowning?  That's pretty vague, but it opens the door to this: I would accept a high level of personal risk to save Robert Bidinotto from drowning.  His life is not worth more to me than my own, but I recognize a significant benefit to myself in taking the risk, because of the Trader Principle cited above. 

What if you saved someone from drowning and then they tried to rob you?  Is that the hallmark of an independent mind with a hidden agenda, or is it the action of a beast without conscience?  If the latter, then why do you go to work every day? Whom do you serve by your efforts?


Post 28

Friday, January 19, 2007 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
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Humans

My theory leads me to believe we are all humans but at what level have we evolved?  The classification one is in depends on their social interactions . 
 
Common denominators base our theories on the subject.
 
For example two person of lesser means go get inebriated on cheap booze and are deemed to be subhuman but if those two sub humans hit the lottery they are.
 
 

Nouveau riche


Now the two are deemed human? 
 
My question is what is a human?
 
Wealth , Breeding , social economic status?
 
 

Murder capital of the nation.



I live in Gary and it's no claim to fame but you can see mansions worth millions of dollars here that sell for $100,000 or less in certain communities and occupied by hard working humans but they give every thing to their children who don't know the value of a dollar and they turn into sub humans.

Then to look only a few blocks away and see a child that was classified as subhuman that never had anything turn out to be a model citizen and uplifts the community.


This topic is very deep what makes us human?


Is intelligence a factor and if so why do we eat other creatures deemed to be less intelligent? 

Hypothetically speaking if most creatures had hands would that raise their IQ in the sight of man why is it that humans find it taboo to eat anything with hands? 

Testing of African Grays and other species of creatures leads me to believe that we just down right like the taste of flesh and refuse to accept that those creatures we devour can rationalize and in my rationalization we can't be human .

We are noble savages!  lol !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A television car and telephone dishwasher and the ability to read and write does not make one human!
(Edited by Silas Geronimo Sconiers on 1/19, 10:13pm)

(Edited by Silas Geronimo Sconiers on 1/20, 3:15pm)


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