Objectivism's View of Prostitution

Teresa asks,

Bill, have you ever been approached by a skanky whore? Seriously, have you?

Of course, I have. I get propositioned all the time. But I ain't cheap, so most of them can't afford me. ;-)

Seriously, I've been approached more than once by prostitutes, as most guy's have; it's not that uncommon. Once I approached a streetwalker to see what the going rate was. She looked me up and down, and asked if I were a cop. I said, "No, I'm just curious how much you charge." She wouldn't answer me. Then her girlfriend said, "I think he's a cop. He looks like a cop." Then the other girl held up one finger. No, not that one! She held up her index finger, and I took it as a silent answer that she charged $100. She was afraid I had a recorder.

But you say,

I would looove to see those gals put out of business. Nasty bitches.

Why? It's a strictly consensual activity. And how would you put them out of business anyway, short of legal prohibition?

- Bill

Post 21

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 1:29am

I agree with Robert Bidinotto, who made an excellent post #18, as my personal viewpoint.

I've got no qualms with other people purchasing/selling sexual stimuli.

Post 22

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 5:22am

Why? It's a strictly consensual activity. And how would you put them out of business anyway, short of legal prohibition?

The streetwalkers you mentioned are only in business because prostitution is illegal. Make it legal, and there won't be much of a market for them.

They're gross, and don't contribute anything positive to the economy, like buy cars, new homes, or even groceries. They buy drugs, alcohol and other crap. Sometimes they steal from their customers, and get into brawls with competitors. They neglect their own lives and are exactly the kind of people Bob talked about:

What I find overlooked in this discussion of prostitution is the habituated depersonalization and emotional detachment that must be required to engage in the most intimate physical acts with people whom one loathes or, at least, regards with utter indifference.

Take away the illegal element, and suddenly, people are forced to become responsible for how they make a living, because consumers exude all of the control.

It's interesting to me how the law has so much influence on ideas. It seems clear to me that the law has influenced Bob's ideas here, not Rand. I have no doubt there are prostitutes who would take offense to the idea that they loath their customers, and are indifferent to their lives. They would also take exception to Bob's idea that they have no control over who their customers are, as if they're open to anyone willing to pay them. That's simply not true.

When it is true, it's true for one reason only: Because prostitution is illegal.

Rand never wrote about prostitutes, or prostitution, as such, but she did give an illuminating glimpse in a part of The Fountainhead that was cut from the book for length, as I recall. Bob and Bill should know what I'm talking about.

Roark was having sex with a gal he did not love. Remember? Did she intend to show Roark making a mistake? I don't think so.

Dominique never loved Wynand, but received loads of goodies for pretending to.

No, Rand never was explicate about it, probably because there were more important things on her mind, but if she were to be explicate, how would she reconcile?

Post 23

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 10:09am

"but received loads of goodies for pretending to" I don't remember her pretending anything.

Post 24

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 12:32pm

Three comments:

Whether a prostitute can also engage either simultaneously or in post-career romantic relationships would seem to be an empirical matter best answered by asking or observing prostitutes than by making a priori arguments.

Also, do not high-class call girls, if not any prostitute not controlled by a pimp or an addiction have some discretion in the matter of clientele? Ancient courtesans and geisha presumably have or had this type of autonomy. Some of the most powerful and respected women of the ancients were high-class prostitutes. Even in Full Metal Jacket, the pimped-out street hooker was potentially able to beg off an assignment that she found "too beaucoup!" As with homosexuality, by limiting our range of thought to modern-day Western examples, we are excluding far too much evidence.

Finally, I regularly visit a legitimate massage clinic. Some of the clientele there are not the most physically fit or attractive specimens. The masseurs, however, seem to be happy and well adjusted people. I have worked as a cook, and when I did so, I was loathe to even look at food at some times after work. But I neither starved nor lost an appreciation for my mother's cooking and fine restaurants, or even Froot Loops. I know that the masseurs have personal sexual relationships. I don't know the details (again, it's an empirical question) but given that massage can almost border on the intimacy of foreplay, I don't get the impression that these people loathe physical contact after work.

This objectivist�s view on prostitution is, ask the prostitute.

Ted Keer, 02 December, 2006, NYC

Hong,

Most fiction that sells is bad fiction, either terrible sci-fi for males or romance novels for females. Some writers that try to write both good works and hack-work for the cash write under pseudonyms like Stephen King and Anne Rice. I am not a huge fan of King's, but found The Stand to be an excellent work. Most of what he writes seems to be crap, however, and his use of a pseudonym seems to be a partial admission of this on his part.

The image is a still from Stanley Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 12/02, 4:53pm)

Post 25

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 1:43pm

Dean,

It's clear to me Dominique was "in like" with Wynand, but not in love. She really hated Peter, genuinely liked Wynand, but was in love with Roark.

And it's true Rand wrote in a character Roark appears to be using for sex only.

Post 26

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 1:57pm

Some of the most powerful and respected women of the ancients were high=class prostitutes.

Ted, have you ever watched "The Courtesan"? Excellent flick. Courtesans of the middle ages were the most educated and autonomous women in Europe. You have to see it.

Post 27

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 2:12pm

Teresa,

I couldn't find that title at netflix or amazon, so I am not sure, but I may have seen it. If it is the movie I am remembering, it was about a woman in Italy betrayed and disgraced by a lover who became a courtesan and eventually rose to a high position? This is one of my boyfriend's favorite movies. Can you name the actress or any other info?

Ted

Post 28

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 2:35pm

Teresa,

I think that all Dean meant is that Dominique wasn't pretending to love Wynand; she never lied to Gail about her feelings...he knew that she didn't love him. He just didn't care. (Dean, correct me if I've misinterpreted you.)

And you're certainly correct about the extra character that Rand had originally created; Vesta Dunning was some sort of stage actress that Roark "dated" but didn't love. My understanding (from Peikoff's explanation) was that her character was cut not only for space, but because the social commentary that her character represented was best achieved by another character, (like Keating, for instance.) But you may be on to something when you said you didn't think Ayn Rand would want to show Roark making a "mistake"; she may have not felt that she could logically reconcile her heroic, perfectly Objectivist man with a meaningless sexual relationship.

I've been trying to stay out of this thread because I haven't decided where I fall on this issue yet...and I have engaged in extensive thought on this very matter previously.

I write fiction, and have for years. The notion of an Objectivist courtesan struck me years ago, and I proceed to create and flesh out a highly intelligent, strong-willed, Objectivist female character who chose to "care" for men for money. Needless to say, she was not a drug addict, or a sexual abuse victim, or anything like that. She was smarter, more interesting, and more capable as a human being than many of her high-end clients! But after creating her, I started having the kinds of doubts (about whether or not she could truly be a happy human being and do this for a living) that Bill stated, and I haven't worked with her character since.

My dilemma is, I love her character---she ROCKS! But, in order to make her realistic, am I ignoring certain ugly truths? Or are those "truths" not really verifiable truths, but opinions, which can be tossed aside...and in which case, Nina the Objectivist Call Girl can rise again! (...and go back to quoting Rand while she gives back rubs.)

I will continue to monitor this discussion and take in the various opinions.

Erica

Post 29

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 3:17pm

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 12/02, 5:06pm)

Post 30

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 3:50pm

Erica,

Try to imagine a circumstance where being a courtesan obviously was the best means available to her to get some high value. Does she live in a dictatorship, or in a sexually repressive culture? Maybe she wants to travel to the stars, and can get a job as a courtesan on a spaceship, but otherwise doesn't qualify as flight crew? Maybe it is a front, and she is a spy or a Francisco type out to overthrow some evil entity? Have you read Robert Heinlein's Friday? Perhaps she is positioning herself to assassinate the tyrant who executed her true love? Have you read I, Claudius? Or maybe she just has a high sex drive, and hasn't yet found anyone worthy of her exclusive attention?

Ted

Post 31

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 4:30pm

Responding to post 24 by Mr Keer:

Hi Ted,

Can you say in what year and what place that street-scene photo was made?

Thanks

Post 32

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 4:55pm

My apologies, the image is a still from Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket, I omitted the reference

Post 33

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 7:52pm

If it is the movie I am remembering, it was about a woman in Italy betrayed and disgraced by a lover who became a courtesan and eventually rose to a high position? This is one of my boyfriend's favorite movies. Can you name the actress or any other info?

That's it. Her mother was also a courtesan, whom she learned the trade from. I don't remember the name of the actress, but she was wonderful. I rented the movie a few years ago from Blockbuster after a friend insisted it was great, and it was. I'm terrible with names. :c/

Post 34

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 9:18pm

I think that all Dean meant is that Dominique wasn't pretending to love Wynand; she never lied to Gail about her feelings...he knew that she didn't love him. He just didn't care. (Dean, correct me if I've misinterpreted you.)

Erica-
No, I think you've interpreted Dean exactly right. I failed to interpret Wynand correctly and imposed the term incorrectly on Dominique.
Dean is correct.

Vesta Dunning... that's her!

I write fiction, and have for years. The notion of an Objectivist courtesan struck me years ago, and I proceed to create and flesh out a highly intelligent, strong-willed, Objectivist female character who chose to "care" for men for money. Needless to say, she was not a drug addict, or a sexual abuse victim, or anything like that. She was smarter, more interesting, and more capable as a human being than many of her high-end clients! But after creating her, I started having the kinds of doubts (about whether or not she could truly be a happy human being and do this for a living) that Bill stated, and I haven't worked with her character since.

Oh, I think it can be done. Don't give up on her just yet.

I'm thinking of this profession (which would be filled mostly by young(ish) and above average attractive women) much like the sport of football, where careers rarely last more than 10 years, but in those 10 years, one has a great time, and makes enough money (and networking connections) to move on to something else when it's over. Think of it that way, maybe?
Nina is multi faceted, with many rational interests, I'm sure. Ultimately, her goal is to develop something ageless, right?

I think it can be done, and she can be genuinely happy.

My dilemma is, I love her character---she ROCKS! But, in order to make her realistic, am I ignoring certain ugly truths? Or are those "truths" not really verifiable truths, but opinions, which can be tossed aside...and in which case, Nina the Objectivist Call Girl can rise again! (...and go back to quoting Rand while she gives back rubs.)

LOL! I can't believe how my attitudes have changed in this subject. An old friend of mine, Dean Brooks, was writing a story about a group of youths caught up in a collectivist quagmire started by a minister. The heroine of the story was going to be, of all things, an exotic dancer! Dean is a technical writer by trade, (and plain brilliant, the nicest guy you ever met) and can certainly write some engaging fiction, but this exotic dancer thing just about killed me! How? Why? Are you nuts?? LOL! I think I get it now, but it took 10 years.

Keep taking notes, because I would love to see something come of your story. Dean never finished his, as far as I know.

To be fair to the discussion, I should say that I honestly don't think even the best "professional" can attain lasting happiness in the field if it's used as a total career move, but I could be wrong. There may be those who can maintain high personal value and gain happiness this way. I don't know that it's impossible, just improbable from my stump. It sounds like a great story, at any rate, and I hope you work to develop it further. :)

Post 35

Saturday, December 2, 2006 - 10:39pm

Teresa, Erica: no misunderstanding currently. Thanks.

There is still the problem of sexually transmitted diseases. A person that highly values their long term heath would not put themselves at such high risk. Tests before each encounter? Would be expensive with current technology.

Short, bright life, or long, dull one? Or could the long one be bright as well? Monogamous relationships still seem optimal to me.

Never the less, I don't think I could ever become tired of women offering me sex. :O

Post 36

Sunday, December 3, 2006 - 12:28am

Whether a prostitute can also engage either simultaneously or in post-career romantic relationships would seem to be an empirical matter best answered by asking or observing prostitutes than by making a priori arguments.

Of course, it is ultimately an empirical matter. I don't think anyone here was suggesting otherwise. If we gave that impression, we certainly didn't intend to. We were advancing an opinion based on psychological observations that are available to anyone. Just look at how many relationships are ruined because of infidelity. Although there have presumably been multiple relationships that worked, I'd wager that they've been few and far between, and the kind of promiscuity that is entailed by prostitution would carry this sexual sharing to an extreme, and make romantic relationships virtually impossible. Ultimately, of course, this is a matter for the science of psychology. But I'd be willing to bet that very few, if any, prostitutes have romantic relationships.

- Bill

Post 37

Sunday, December 3, 2006 - 1:51am

Not being a female, or viewing myself as more feminine than the average straight male, I wouldn't want to speak on a woman's behalf, but considering Rand's equivocations (Vesta, Kira, vs. stated later arguments) and Teresa and Erica's not entire distaste for the matter, I think that some young women with a strong sex drive [or broad emapthy] who engaged in the activity at their own discretion would be able to do so as healthy individuals, and I would expect that at some point they would also wish to "leave the business" and settle down. This theme is so frequent in literature and that I find it implausible to deny the possibility. There must be some attractiveness to the idea to women or nobody on this list would be arguing the point from the female side or have had the inspiration to come up with the idea even as fiction.

As for men, I have known of gay prostitutes having boyfriends, although how serious that could be if the extracurricular activity were going on during a relationship is questionable.

I would again assume that an undamaged and voluntary prostitute would simply either give up the profession if he or she fell in love or would leave the profession if they were looking to find love.

I think the best source of data would lie outside open modern Western culture, at least American culture. The best place to look for an answer would have to be either in a society with a tradition of courtesans such as Geishas or Hetaerae or in special circumstances such as the old-west saloon town girl. Most modern American prostitutes who are known to the public are either crack-whores or promiscuous males with lifestyles considered beyond the Objectivist pale. Yet the "pretty woman" fantasy still exists.

I see little point in philosophizing over the matter without real examples or testimony, since much else seems to be projection. No "real man" would want to think "his woman" was even entertaining the idea of another man. A woman who might engage in such behavior might also just be the same perverse type to run for president. [smiley]

My belief is that both an ongoing real relationship and active prostitution would not be sustainable. But I find making any stronger claims to be proclamations of ideals and positions, not hard indisputable facts.

Ted Keer, 03 December, 2006, NYC

The images are of Zhang Ziyi who poses as a blind performer in a Chinese brothel in the exquisitely beautiful House of Flying Daggers, which addresses many of the issues raised on this string.

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 12/03, 2:16am)

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 12/03, 1:14pm)

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 12/03, 3:22pm)

Post 38

Sunday, December 3, 2006 - 2:11am

I believe that the movie which Teresa and I were discussing as the "Courtesan" was actually Dangerous Beauty with Kathleen McCormack and Rufus Sewell.

As for Dean's concern with the risk of sexually transmitted diseases, one would assume that objectivists should neither be front-line medics, have prostate glands, give live childbirth, have breasts, or be deep sea fisherman, police, firemen, NYC inhabitants, Russian dissidents, dentists, Swedes, haemophiliacs, Sudanese, human, or World War One volunteers since most members of these groups end up dying at some point. [smiley]

Ted Keer, 03 December, 2006, NYC

Post 39

Sunday, December 3, 2006 - 2:15am