Objectivism's View of Prostitution

John, several workers at the Bunny Ranch of Cathouse engage in both prostitution and pornography. Names that I recall include:

Sunset Thomas
Eden
Isabella Soprano

Interestingly, Sunset Thomas worked in pornography before becoming a courtesan. Some of her fellow pornography stars actually chastised her for "degrading" herself into becoming a hooker though she pointed to them the obvious fallacies of their arguments. She dated Dennis Hof, the owner of the brothel, for several months before ending the relationship and leaving the Bunny Ranch. She had hoped the relationship with him would deepen, but that did not happen.

Post 61

Friday, December 15, 2006 - 5:55pm

I've been off this thread for a while. Where do I begin?

As for your character, I would suggest from personal experience that after a loss, such as the murder of my first boyfriend, "desperate acts" or the fear of never loving again might be much more natural an impetus toward Nina's career than simply not yet having found someone good enough. It would seem strange to me for someone with other talents to simply give up ahead of time on finding someone. I think some hurt or tragedy might, in the "right" circumsatnces, lead down that path. (Ted Keer)

Ted...I was starting to agree with you---Nina's becoming a prostitute out of some great personal tragedy did seem the most (only) logical justification---until I read this:

- think Galt's Gulch when Dagny takes her first tour - men men men, without a woman in sight (except Kay on stage), pining (and panting) for a woman of ability, of the mind
beats the courtesan of the tragic past putting one over useless men ;) (Vera S. Doerr)

Wow. In case no one really got this before, I was desperately looking for a rational way to justify her decision to become a prostitute that did not require a tragic past to explain it. That was my hope...I was not sure it was possible. Mind you, there are still some logistical problems to be worked out in regards to the character; realistically, where could she find clients like the inhabitants of Galt's Gulch? Wait...she could make a point to "work" Objectivist conferences...(mind working feverishly)...that could work...hmmm....Thank you, Ms. Doerr!

Since my Gallery Movie review of Cathouse sparked this thread, yet I have not seen anyone in this thread claim to have seen it, I wanted to post some general comments. I do not aim these at any particular posts in this thread although they might bear some relevance to some of them. (Luke Setzer)

Luke, I apologize for not acknowledging your review of Cathouse earlier; I did read it, and I rather liked it. I saw a special once a long time ago on the brothels of Nevada, and I thought that it, like your review, in the very least, provided the strongest argument for legalization in all states that I'd ever seen.
(Incidentally, you mentioned in your review the "social aspects"of life at the Bunny Ranch---various sales people and experts coming to visit, etc. In the special I saw, the women were also visited by financial experts who helped these women invest their large earnings in stocks, mutual funds, etc. to prepare them for their future after the prostitution. Learning proper fellatio techniques from a renowned "expert" can certainly be helpful, but learning what to do with your money in order to prepare for your retirement is even more valuable, I would say.) All in all, great review.

I'm still not sure that prostitution is the best that certain women (or men) can hope for...(Bill Dwyer)

Bill, in my heart of hearts, I don't think prostitution is an ideal that most should consider. (As I mentioned in an earlier post, my initial reasons for halting the cultivation of this character were due to the fact that I was considering the same issues you introduced in your first post.) Like you, though, I can't entirely rule out (Luke's contention) that it may be the best that some people can hope for. My Nina character is but one of several Objectivists in the book; I'm not sure I would want her to be the only representative of the philosophy present, just the one with the most interesting career choice...:-)

The psychology of the 'group' called prostitutes clearly cannot be considered equivalent amongst all members. (John Dailey)

Can I get an AMEN to that? A big part of my inspiration for the character was a friend I had who was a prostitute...not a streetwalker on drugs who worked for a pimp, or even an escort service...she was completely independent, kept all of her money, chose her clients herself, made big bucks, had two fancy apartments (one to live in, one for working), etc. She was funny, and smart---not an Objectivist---hell, I wasn't even one back then---but she controlled her own life. (I just hoped she invested well for the future. :-)

An 'Objectivist' question: Was Kira supposedly 'psychologically healthy' (or not) when she went to 'do the streets'...thus meeting Andrei? (John Dailey)

It's been years since I read We The Living, but didn't she have a purpose in mind when she prostituted herself to Andrei? (Namely to save her beloved Leo?) Isn't it considered, even by Objectivist standards, to be "psychologically healthy" to do something like that when it will benefit someone you love (spouse, or a child?) (Scholars, again, correct me if I am mistaken.)

Does she know how to work the aches out of quadriceps? (Dean Gores, referring to Nina)

Of course she does! (She visits the website in Mike Erickson's link. All the time. Really.)
Say...(just for research purposes, Dean---I swear)...when you attend, say, the next RoR conference...would you consider making a "date" with Nina if she were available?
(Sorry, all---I gotta know.)

And finally,

Ted...I have not read Niven, but as with Heinlein, I will---based on your recommendations.
Erica

Post 62

Friday, December 15, 2006 - 6:46pm

Say...(just for research purposes, Dean---I swear)...when you attend, say, the next RoR conference...would you consider making a "date" with Nina if she were available?

SELECT womanName FROM women WHERE neverConsideredDating = TRUE;
Empty set (0.08 sec)

Post 63

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 2:32am

Erica:

Re your response to my question about Kira, if that argument has any validity (re 'someone you love') in an O'ist sense, then it cannot exclude oneself as a beneficiary (work-pleasure, or economic life-style.) Can't help but think of what's-her-name in Firefly who was a futuristic Geisha of sorts.

Re the concern about prostitution not being 'the best that women can hope for' work-wise, that can be said about pretty well MOST 'jobs' whether one enjoys the work or merely tolerates it, if one thinks about it. Didn't Hugh Akston decide to run a mere local diner (in an out-of-the way locale, no less) ?

LLAP
J:D

Post 64

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 2:48am

Erica:

O-t-other-h, Bill O'Reilly (not my favorite smug commentator) had interviewed some woman of the trade (prost or porn-star, forget which) a couple yrs ago, and did imply maybe the most interesting argument against doing such as a freely chosen life-workstyle: He asked if they didn't consider the work as a 'lazy' way to make money.

If you continue this story of yours, you might want to consider bringing that consideration into it. Arguing against it, of course.

LLAP
J:D

Post 65

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 6:02am

To someone like him, probably would be considered 'lazy', since he probably doesn't know the difference between a fuck and making love - it's all just 'getting off' for him, with the woman as the vessel......

Post 66

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 8:14am

Logistics:
speaking from my work as a freelance IT consultant (which is also a kind of 'prostitution') I'd say mostly word-of-mouth ...
start out with spreading your profile on some potential sites: objectivist conferences, boards, the ressource database I once suggested here long ago (like what www.gulp.de did for IT consultants and is now the biggest fish in our pond over here) ...
start with a few first customers who refer you on: I know someone who knows someone who ...
after 10 years I've some solid 'base-clients' who always can come up with some projects simply because they already know me and my work and don't have to go looking, and my profiles on different project-boards and databases brings in a few 'strays' ...
inbetween projects I have some 'off-time' that I use for 'personal recreation' ... as I make enough money on one two-year project I can afford to take three or six months off work ...
VSD

Post 67

Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 8:44am

SELECT womanName FROM women WHERE neverConsideredDating = TRUE;
Empty set (0.08 sec) (Dean Gores)

Brilliant, Dean. :-)

Logistics:
speaking from my work as a freelance IT consultant (which is also a kind of 'prostitution') I'd say mostly word-of-mouth ... (Vera Doerr)

Yes, Vera, I can see how that would work...in my story, originally, Nina had a lot of word of mouth clients. (She actually preferred this.) But word of mouth Objectivist clients! Nina would be in heaven.

Re your response to my question about Kira, if that argument has any validity (re 'someone you love') in an O'ist sense, then it cannot exclude oneself as a beneficiary (work-pleasure, or economic life-style.) (John Dailey)

The point I was trying to make (and failed miserably, apparently) concerned the idea of someone making a personal sacrifice in order to help someone who holds value for them, such as a loved one.)
Kira's true love, Leo, was ill and needed special care; she loved him and wanted to make sure he got it. She did not care for Andrei, and she was not a perpetually horny sex addict for whom sex with Andrei would provide an additional benefit for her---making the entire transaction a "sacrifice" for Kira personally, but one worth undertaking because of the value she receives from Leo, whose health she wanted to preserve.
Then there is the fact that you mention Kira's choices as though they are fully comparable to Nina's choices, but they're not. One lives in Communist Russia right after the revolution; the other lives in The United States in the present day. Nina can do whatever she wants; Kira lives with a jackboot on her neck.
I've never questioned what Kira did and why she did it, particularly in light of her circumstances. Does that make me a counterfeit Objectivist? (Worried frown.) Oh, dear.
(Scholars, please...weigh in and help me see the light...)

He (Bill O'Reilly) asked if they didn't consider the work as a 'lazy' way to make money. (John Dailey)

Wow. I had never, ever heard anyone refer to prostitution as a "lazy" way to make money. (Skanky, immoral, unhealthy, sinful, blah, blah blah...but lazy??!!)

Was this the interviewee's response?

"Bill, you sit on your ass in a cushy TV studio commenting on news generated by others, criticizing the actions of said others, and offering up opinions and solutions that will not ever actually be implemented. I mean, how could they be? You aren't in the position to make anything happen, or prevent anything from happening. You're just a talking head, after all. You don't produce anything but your own opinion.You can never be blamed for, or credited with, anything that happens in the world...all you do is discuss it. And get paid handsomely for it. Isn't that a rather lazy way to make money?"

No? Well, it should have been.

Erica

(Edited by Erica Schulz on 12/16, 12:17pm)

Post 68

Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 10:29am

Erica:

Not a bad response re Billy's question. You sound like Madonna when she and Falwell were in multiple TV-conference-interview a while back. She knew how to point out hypocrisies.

Don't, however, impugn judgements by moi merely by the question(s) I asked. Re Kira, I was just trying to get clarified, from your pov, how one might expect the 'average' O'ist to consider her situation given the question-context; not how such, as you have done, can be defensibly justified from a personal pov. 'Justification' was not what I was asking you for; merely clarification of a perspective. Good response, though.

LLAP
J:D

Post 69

Monday, December 18, 2006 - 11:23am

if that argument has any validity (re 'someone you love') in an O'ist sense, then it cannot exclude oneself as a beneficiary (work-pleasure, or economic life-style.) (John Dailey)

John,

Obviously, I misunderstood your intent, as I failed to intrepret the above quote as a question. My mistake.

Erica

Post 70

Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 8:54am

Erica:

     No problem.
     However, THAT quote was a mere hypothetical meant about O'ists generally for you to comment on, and not a question (obviously) rhetorically criticizing your thoughts.

     My 'question' was in a postscript in post # 59 and described as an "O'ist question". Guess I should've labeled it as "a question for any O'ists who have varied-and-disagreeing views on the question of prostitution-and-O'ism."

LLAP
J:D

Post 71

Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 9:15pm

"Can I get an AMEN to that? A big part of my inspiration for the character was a friend I had who was a prostitute...not a streetwalker on drugs who worked for a pimp, or even an escort service...she was completely independent, kept all of her money, chose her clients herself, made big bucks, had two fancy apartments (one to live in, one for working), etc. She was funny, and smart---not an Objectivist---hell, I wasn't even one back then---but she controlled her own life. (I just hoped she invested well for the future. :-)
" - Erica

Erica,

Did you ever introduce your friend to Rand?

PS Read Heinlein before Niven. See my thread for the recommendations. Niven's best are Footfall, Lucifer's Hammer, Oath of Fealty, Leqacy of Heorot, Rinqworld and best of all is Mote in Qod's eye (q's are for "jee's")

Ted

And see Marotta's Neqlected post on Aspasia for a neqlected hetaira of ancient qreece.

Post 72

Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 1:05pm

Hi again, Ted.

To answer your question (about my friend and Rand): no, I never introduced her to Rand because I was unaware of her myself at the time. And my friend eventually decided to make a life for herself out west (in Las Vegas first, then San Diego) so we lost touch after that. Several years passed before I was exposed to the works of Ayn Rand. :-(

Erica

P.S. I will follow your literary recommendations. :-)

Post 73

Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 3:24pm

After Heinlein, ye'd best try Eric Frank Russell, or James Hogan, before Niven - or even better, L. Neil Smith.... ;-)

Post 74

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 3:53am

Erica,

If you know her real name, Google her and send her a friendly note.

Robert,

I got half way through one of Hogan's books. I might finish it some day (Lost legend of earth) He is apparently a liberal, and his ditribes about how most of what we take to be science as being false are more than tongue in cheek fun, they are conspiracy theory quackery. Can you make a recommendation at length?

Post 75

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 8:45am

Ted,

Isn't Hogan the novelist who subscribes to Professor Dusenberg's theory about AIDS being caused not by a retrovirus but by drug abuse? Around ten or fifteen years ago, some Objectivists affiliated with a small newsletter, Full Context were touting Hogan (and Duesenberg's theory). I take it that that's the "quackery" you're referring to.

Bill

Post 76

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 9:03am

James P. Hogan writes [or used to, since not know of him save thru his books] 'hard' science fiction - the best, to me, being Voyage to Yesteryear and Bug Park, tho others I found of much interest as well... looking up in Wiki - was surprised to find him expousing such odd ideas as it seems he does indeed do...... as for Dusenberg's work, have read the book, and found of much interest, even as it goes against most others' views - and have yet to read of any objective rebuttal of it, just the name-calling of quackery and intense dismissal accord, hardly the proper scientific response and one akin to how 'global warmers' treat those who dare question the prevailing noxin....

Post 77

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:34pm

I am not the best person to ask about Hogan, having read only half of one of his books. When I purchased it last year, the other book on the shelf by him (in the sci-fi section) was a bizarre screed about how just about all we are "told" about science is false. I read enough to know I didn't need to read more.

The book I did purchase features an incredibly unlikely humanoid race (so like us that we have sex for pleasure with them) which, anyone with a minimal knowledge of biology would know is an occurence about as likely as ressurection from the cross. That title also spoke about how the aliens, given that they eschew theorizing and just look at the facts, have managed to travel the universe while we complain about the light-speed limit.

The book itself was not so bad as a story, it just didn't hold my interest as much as I had hoped.

On SOLO Hogan has many fans. He has supposedly written a novel where Ayn herself appears as a character. The poster was not sure which title though.

I myself much prefer Greg Bear, whose Forge of God and Anvil of the Stars, and whose Darwin's Radio and its sequel where much better and gripping stories. Forge of God begins with astronomers noting that Europa has disappeared. Then aliens land offering to solve all the worlds problems. The president has a pressing question, "Do you believe in God?" A second and less apparently altruistic alien, who warns against the "benefactors" responds "I believe in punishment."

Darwin's Radio is the story of a strange human fossil found in the melting Alps, rumors of plague in Georgia and the Ukraine, and then bizarre "double" pregnancies, the first spontaneously aborting, the second producing...

Bear's work is likened to that of a liberal Larry Niven. Forge of God was seen as a liberal antidote to the "fascist" Footfall. While Bear is obviously no conservative, his premises are not hidden and his characters are not cardboard stereotypes. His science is not the hardest, but it is not soft. He is prolific, and I have not been able to get into all his works.

Finally, as for Duesenberg, I worked at a publishing company that drove itself bankrupt trying to champion his theories in the early nineties. The publisher had personal reasons for his "beliefs". Funny that this nonsense should come up after so long. Anyone who is really interested in some entertaining reading can look up Neenyah Ostrom's book on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, which was the unsaleable work that drove the company I worked for out of business. I was not aware of the Hogan/Duesenberg connections. Ah, the memories...

Ted

Post 78

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 2:21pm