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Post 20

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 7:22pmSanction this postReply
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"Ergo, there is nothing wrong with competing agencies resolving conflicts based on differing codes."
Right, because when Guido and " Sammy the butcher" and the rest of the mafia who started their protection agency resolve conflicts by simply killing off their competition, there's really nothing wrong with that.
The argument essentially amounts to:

"Anarchy is bad because there would be mafias that violated peoples rights."

1.) Mafias generally profit by dealing in black market goods and services such as drugs, gambling, etc. These are items which even minarchists agree should be perfectly legal. So I find it unlikely that mafias as we know them would prosper.

2.) One way that mafias retain power is through bribery of the police and other government officials. I believe competing agencies would provide an incentive for the good to expose the bad (perhaps a weak argument, however...)

3.) 1 & 2 are really besides the point, which is that this "mafia" is not a figment of your imagination, but rather a real concept, that has existed as a real entity within the context of a constitutionally limited monopoly government.

You ignore that mafia run "protection" agencies have existed and continue to exist despite the presence of a government. Government or no, they may always exist.
It's precisely because the majority of all men don't naturally make war with each other, that having a government protect our rights made so much sense. If most men don't want war -- but some (i.e., the criminal minority) do -- then 'proper' government is the solution to this problem of the Tragedy of the Common Man.

I would have to agree with the first part of this, but not the conclusion. It would seem that underlying all of the minarchist arguments is the premise that man is inherently evil and wicked, and must therefore be ruled.

I believe
It's precisely because the majority of all men don't naturally make war with each other, that having a
 free market in protection and adjudication would not result in a Hobbesian war.

To touch on something Steve said, I agree with him when he says:

No one could object to a government that only has rules/laws that prohibit the violation of individual rights while still claiming to be in favor of individual rights.

This is true, but then again, in Steve's own words:

If you point at any government on earth today you will see flagrant examples of violating the purpose of government as I've described it - but that doesn't invalidate the need - it just says we aren't there yet.

I believe MEM already said it best when he said:

If "the" government had "a" just legal system, there would be no discussion. There would be no anarchists.
Steve also asked:

You don't present an explanation of why a government based solely upon rules against the initiation of force would be wrong.

You didn't reply to my statement as to why such a government would be objected to by someone who recognizes individual rights.


The answer is, it wouldn't and, it wouldn't.


Post 21

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan, did you read my link (about how in the State of Nature man was a trader of value for value)?

What are you claiming? Are you claiming that I ...

-don't agree with the linked argument (about our human nature to trade tit-for-tat, whether it be value -- or retribution),

-or that you admit that I do agree that humans are trading partners by their very nature -- but that that should "make" me an anarchist (instead of a minarchist)?

Ed


Post 22

Friday, March 9, 2007 - 2:48amSanction this postReply
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Ed, I clicked on the link, but it was late, and it looked lengthy. I will check it out this weekend. To answer your question, it was my impression based on your previous statements that you agree that humans are trading partrners by nature.

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Post 23

Friday, March 9, 2007 - 6:59amSanction this postReply
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The Trader Syndrome is the Human mindset - the Taking Syndrome is the humanized animal mindset...

http://rebirthofreason.com/inc/Galleries/Articles/1451_t.shtml

(Edited by robert malcom on 3/09, 7:02am)

So yes - humans are trading partners by nature....

(Edited by robert malcom on 3/09, 7:04am)


Post 24

Friday, March 9, 2007 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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Ed, I clicked on the link, but it was late, and it looked lengthy. I will check it out this weekend. To answer your question, it was my impression based on your previous statements that you agree that humans are trading partrners by nature.
And I agree as well.


Post 25

Friday, March 9, 2007 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I agree with your statement that the Trader is the natural mindset - the nature of man. 

But Jacob's description of the "Guardian" syndrome is a bit broader than just "Taking" and has its place even in a government limited by individual rights (after that syndrome is properly trimmed and adjusted so as to shift it from a description of moral evolution to a description of the moral precepts objectively proper to a government designed to support the Trader).

For example, Jacobs spoke of the Guardian's moral precept to "shun trading" - and Objectivist are in favor of the elimination of corruption ("selling power") and that congress shall pass no laws violating the separation of state and economy.

I made some comments at in reply to your article.


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Post 26

Monday, April 9, 2007 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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"Ergo, there is nothing wrong with competing agencies resolving conflicts based on differing codes."

Right, because when Guido and " Sammy the butcher" and the rest of the mafia who started their protection agency resolve conflicts by simply killing off their competition, there's really nothing wrong with that.

The argument essentially amounts to:

"Anarchy is bad because there would be mafias that violated peoples rights."

1.) Mafias generally profit by dealing in black market goods and services such as drugs, gambling, etc. These are items which even minarchists agree should be perfectly legal. So I find it unlikely that mafias as we know them would prosper.

2.) One way that mafias retain power is through bribery of the police and other government officials. I believe competing agencies would provide an incentive for the good to expose the bad (perhaps a weak argument, however...)

3.) 1 & 2 are really besides the point, which is that this "mafia" is not a figment of your imagination, but rather a real concept, that has existed as a real entity within the context of a constitutionally limited monopoly government.

You ignore that mafia run "protection" agencies have existed and continue to exist despite the presence of a government. Government or no, they may always exist.


1. Mafias also profit by extortion and murder those who compete with them or show defiance to their extortion. Under anarchy, these thugs would thrive on their murderous practices. Their ideas of protecting individuals from force are far from being just. But you would allow them to exist without any effort to stop them?

2. And according to you, a mafia would no longer need to bribe but would then become it's own militia. Competing militias means a state of civil war. One agency tries to establish its authority over the other through force. Any comprimises means one comprimises western law with mafia law. Or one comprimises between western law and sharia law if one of the police agencies were run by Mullahs. (since when did criminals show interest in peaceful comprimise anyways? They just take what they want by force, and under a market-anarchy, are free to do so without retribution) This turns the idea of justice into a utilitarian issue. You can't haggle or bargain over man's rights.

3. Perfect solution fallacy. Just because we can't completely obliterate all mafiosos, implies that the effort to mitigate, or attempt to curtail the mafia, are not a worthwhile effort. The same could be said about murder. Since murder exists under a consitutionally limited monopoly government, then this should warrant the destruction of something that clearly is just not working. (as if 100% success is the only rational measure for success?)





(Edited by John Armaos
on 4/09, 12:14pm)


Post 27

Friday, April 13, 2007 - 11:49pmSanction this postReply
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Instead of market vs. gov't, how about a market of gov'ts?   We could have like ', I don't know, pick a number ...50 competing sets of gov'ts in a political context in which it was easy to switch allegiance/residence, like choosing a better utility company.   Gov'ts would have to compete for taxpayers/residents by being 'good gov'ts.  In fact, this would permit variations in governmentness to suit the wildly varying levels of tuck me in at night nanny statism found in otherwise normal looking folks.  I mean, there would be plenty of room for both a Masachusettes and an Idaho.  

If any got too oppressively willy nilly with its local monopoly on the use of force and constructivist society building, it would either wither on its own merits, or attract its own litttle tribe of bootlickers.   We could call them 'state' governments, and ... oh, crap.   I said "by being good government?"  I forgot about Pennsylvania and the Philly mob handing out casino licenses to its crony friends, as part of its campaign to be the Mississippi of the North.   Never mind.  I keep forgetting that when it comes to mob rule, on average, we're average, and average is as good as mob rule gets, inescapably, by definition. . 

Never mind for sure.  Besides, I'm sure we'd just muck this up with some kind of crazy overbearing OneSizeFitsAll federalism, and if that didn't pile up enough corpses, I'm sure we would soon move on to  globalism for Germania redux.

Sorry.

regards,
Fred


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Post 28

Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 2:23amSanction this postReply
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Gee, good idea Fred. 

We could be just like Iraq.  We could choose the 'official' government in Bagdad or one of the others like the 'protective agency' they call a Shi'a militia - or one of the Sunni militia or the Kurds or al Qaida....  Well, you get the idea.  Of course when we leave Iraq, the official governement might just wither away but there will be lots of others that will step in to 'compete.' 

The middle east has been a great example of competing 'defense agencies' - I mean isn't Lebanon proof of how anarchy doesn't permit chaos?  (That's satire for any who like to be told ;-)

Always good for any idot to be able to choose what rules they want to use (they will have to argue with the people that will be free to use force to impose Sharia, or some Scicilian code since there won't be any state monopoly on an objective set of laws).

You said,
Gov'ts would have to compete for taxpayers/residents by being 'good gov'ts. 
Actually, when you have guns, you don't have to compete, you can just take.


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Post 29

Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 6:03amSanction this postReply
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The middle east has been a great example of competing 'defense agencies' ...
China has been a great example of how government routinely violates the rights of its citizens. Or the USSR, or Nazi Germany... I expect more from you Steve.


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Post 30

Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 10:35pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Wolfer opined: "The middle east has been a great example of competing 'defense agencies' ..."
The defense agencies are not the ones you named.  You named competing governments

Time and time again, I have cited examples of real world defense agencies acting here and now in markets that serve needs expressed as human action.  Time and again, the miniarchists want to argue medieval Iceland or something else.  Meanwhile, the govern-mentalists ignore topics asking for examples of (A) Objective Law and (B) Rational Government.  Limited (governed) mentalities seem to have nothing positive to offer.


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Post 31

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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For the time being I'm choosing to not argue the issue of anarchy.  I simply believe that it is too silly to take seriously.  I'm saddened that there are people who do take it seriously.  I often find that anarchists debate it in ways that show little respect for reason or for the person they argue with.

 It is as simple as this.
  • Moral rights are deduced from man's nature.  That means they are objective.
  • We translate those rights into rules - rules of  law-  and we build structures to maintain and enforce them.  
  • The structures we build have but the one set of rules for a geographical area.  This is our way of controling the use of force so it will be on the side of man's life.
If the rules that govern the use of force are not made a monopoly (one single government for a geographical area) then the competition will be in using force to make one set of rules prevail over others.  I do not want others to be able to choose a 'defense agency' whose rules are not based upon Objective moral rights.  Different sets of rules governing the use of force is a prescription for chaos, or war, or most of the terrorist actions.  That is so simple and so obvious. 

I'm disheartened everytime I see people that refer to themselves as Objectivists and anarchists.  I have no more replies to make to anarchist arguments - they aren't just wrong, they demean this forum and this movement.  Anarchy is to intelligent political discourse what mooning someone is to intelligent conversation.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 4/15, 11:16am)


Post 32

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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I'm disheartened everytime I see people that refer to themselves as Objectivists and anarchists.  I have no more replies to make to anarchist arguments - they aren't just wrong, they demean this forum and this movement.  Anarchy is to intelligent political discourse what mooning someone is to intelligent conversation
I think I just cheered out loud reading this! Thanks Steve for putting it so bluntly and accurately. It does demean this movement, and I would suggest to the moderators of this forum these discussions and those who hold anarchy as a virtue be relegated to where they belong, in the dissent forum.


Post 33

Monday, April 16, 2007 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
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"For the time being I'm choosing to not argue the issue of anarchy." (... and doing a fine job of it!)

While we are at it, let's not argue the issue of geography.  There are many organizations that overarch place.  The Catholic Church is a perfect example.  Before being split into two nations, there were East and West Pakistan, with one set of laws, separated by India.  The European Union does not include Switzerland, which separates lands north and west of it from Austria and Italy.  Greenland was "part of"  Denmark, even though huge stretches of ocean -- as well as Britain and Iceland -- intervened.  I could also cite Alaska and Hawaii as well as Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, the Philippines (until 1946), etc., etc., but I will not.

Nothing offered the first two points above -- moral rights are objective to man's nature; and those rights are translated into into an index of dos and don'ts -- requires or prohibits contiguous geography.


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