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Post 20

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 9:59pmSanction this postReply
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Welcome to the Happy Side

...because our natures do vary at least accidentally. And although we must be rational, perhaps we must be rational homosexuals or rational autists or rational transsexuals or rational introverts or rational extroverts and so forth according to our own genetically variant animal - i.e., biological - natures? Know thyself does not mean know your platonic essence and suppress your individual nature.

Welcome to the Happy Side, Ed.

Ted Keer

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Post 21

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 7:47amSanction this postReply
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Bill, I've never been one of those who equate rational self-interest with maximizing one's odds of longer-term survival. Some lives are not worth living. The potential for psychological enjoyment -- happiness -- must play a big role in one's career and lifestyle choices.

As you say, there are trade-offs in life -- in everything we do, in fact. However, reason should set boundaries on what the "pursuit of happiness" will allow.

There are actions that are inherently risky, but the risks are manageable -- e.g., many sports, like skydiving or skiing. We all need the enjoyment of experiencing our own efficacy and physical well-being, but physical pursuits invariably run the risk of getting us hurt or worse. Since we need physical activity and enjoyment, reason tells us: Yes, engage in active physical pursuits, but just don't be stupid about it. Train, and take reasonable precautions.

Likewise, there are high-risk careers -- mining, fire-fighting, police work, soldiering, lumberjacking -- but they involve obtaining or defending values important to human life; and again, through proper preparation, risks can be managed. For many people, those risks are well worth facing in pursuit of the objectively valuable rewards.

There are other "pleasures," however, that are worse than "risky": they're downright harmful, such as smoking and cocaine use; whatever feeling of emotional pleasure they give is demonstrably at the expense of one's health. (I say that as an ex-smoker.) In light of today's knowledge, there's no way one can reasonably or objectively contend that such behavior is consonant with rational self-interest.

Now, there is no Objectivist "rulebook," where each alternative in life is entered, followed by a "yes" or "no." Moral choice can't be exercised on automatic pilot. The science of ethics can tell us why we should follow reason. But pursuing happiness within the bounds of reason is as much an art as a science, and it requires of us a conscientious willingness to commit ourselves to wherever reason takes us.
(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 9/14, 8:36am)


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Post 22

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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Responding to my Post #18, Ed wrote,
Bill,

You're putting too fine a point on it. You can't effectively capture what the Good Life is -- not like you're attempting to. Heck, even Aristotle said he couldn't define what the Good Life is -- and that we all just have to look at happy people (and take notes from there!).
Whatever happened to "life as the standard of value," or "Man's life qua man"? Are you saying that Rand erred in attempting to define the life proper to man?

- Bill

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Post 23

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Responding my Post #18, Bob wrote,
There are actions that are inherently risky, but the risks are manageable -- e.g., many sports, like skydiving or skiing. We all need the enjoyment of experiencing our own efficacy and physical well-being, but physical pursuits invariably run the risk of getting us hurt or worse. Since we need physical activity and enjoyment, reason tells us: Yes, engage in active physical pursuits, but just don't be stupid about it. Train, and take reasonable precautions.

Likewise, there are high-risk careers -- mining, fire-fighting, police work, soldiering, lumberjacking -- but they involve obtaining or defending values important to human life; and again, through proper preparation, risks can be managed. For many people, those risks are well worth facing in pursuit of the objectively valuable rewards.
Good point.
There are other "pleasures," however, that are worse than "risky": they're downright harmful, such as smoking and cocaine use; whatever feeling of emotional pleasure they give is demonstrably at the expense of one's health. (I say that as an ex-smoker.) In light of today's knowledge, there's no way one can reasonably or objectively contend that such behavior is consonant with rational self-interest.
This is another good point. (See, I don't have to figure these things out for myself, when I've got Bob here to do it for me! And he's even willing to work for free. Imagine that!)

I do have a question regarding smoking, however. Take lung cancer, the bane of all smokers and the main reason people are told not to do it. What is often overlooked is the fact that whereas most people who get lung cancer are smokers, most people who smoke don't get lung cancer (or emphysema or pneumonia). So, the risk of getting these diseases for a smoker is comparatively small (depending, of course, on how much one smokes). Perhaps, this is the reason that David Kelley still smokes (and I understand that he smokes very little). Could we say that even here, the person has to weigh the risks against the benefits, and make a subjective decision? And if so, is there still a limit -- say, a pack a day, two packs a day, whatever -- beyond which the risks can be said, objectively, to outweigh the benefits? I should think there would have to be, otherwise we're conceding the subjectivist premise that whatever you decide is good, because you've decided it.
Now, there is no Objectivist "rulebook," where each alternative in life is entered, followed by a "yes" or "no." Moral choice can't be exercised [or] work on automatic pilot. The science of ethics can tell us why we should follow reason. But pursuing happiness within the bounds of reason is as much an art as a science, and it requires of us a conscientious willingness to commit ourselves to wherever reason takes us.
Economists often make the point that whatever one chooses is a value because one chooses it; it must be a value, otherwise one wouldn't have chosen it, to begin with. This is true insofar as what is meant by "value" is whatever one prefers. But to say that one prefers whatever he chooses is not to say that whatever he chooses is of benefit to him. People can make irrational and self-defeating choices -- choices they ought not to make. What is the standard of moral judgment here? It is the moral agent's happiness and well-being, which is not something that can be determined by whim. Whether or not one is happy is an objective fact with real causes. The trick is discovering what those causes are and living one's life accordingly. I think the salient point that Objectivism makes is that happiness is a consequence of life-serving actions, actions that are conducive to the health and well-being of the moral agent. A person who doesn't care about his own health and well-being and lives his life according to the whim of the moment (e.g., the drug addict, the criminal or the lazy bum) may achieve the temporary satisfaction of his desires, but at the expense of his own long-term happiness.

- Bill

Post 24

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Sounds as if we are pretty much on the same wavelength here.

Regarding health risks from smoking or other chemical hazards. There's a threshold beneath which most chemicals and carcinogens pose no real risk. Our bodies' natural defenses and immune system deal with much of the daily toxins we ingest. However, smoking regularly can overwhelm one's immune system. My dad died of emphysema at 67. He had smoked heavily for most of his adult life, and he also worked in many dusty and smoky environments. He eventually quit smoking, but the damage was already done. It wasn't a pretty physical decline and death.

I smoked a pipe for about a decade. I gave it up when my throat kept getting raw in the same place. I hope that my stupidity during that period hasn't set me up for later cancer.

--Robert



Post 25

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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When I was a Christian (I'm fond of using that past tense) I can remember many times when I would desire to give to those I cared about however I gave to those who mattered very little to me. It was expected. My thoughts were, "I do love this person, but this person needs this much more. And while I don't know this person, or worse, I do know them and despise them, I will do what is right and give to them. I'll love them because Jesus loves them" or some bullshit like that.

I may want to think that everyone is really selfish at heart, however, I know this is not true.

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Post 26

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, you changed your picture so often. Is the big, colorful one you've posted a recent likeness?

Just curious.

- Bill

Post 27

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, you changed your picture so often. Is the big, colorful one you've posted a recent likeness?

 
it would explain  his visiting the doctor's office...;-)





Post 28

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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I work on Vesey Street, which you can google. The antenna of the WTC fell into my building. My father worked in the South Tower. I used to thrill to see the towers on the Jersey Turnpike. I choose as my avatars things I value.

Ted

Post 29

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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I think the colorful picture Bill mentioned is of a short, green, long eared fellow.

Post 30

Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

==============
Whatever happened to "life as the standard of value," or "Man's life qua man"? Are you saying that Rand erred in attempting to define the life proper to man?
==============

No. Rand's definition -- almost as much as Aristotle's version -- is still largely ostensible (arrived at by pointing to exemplary instantiations of it). And the reason that this is so is that it is the best that one can do. For more illuminative perspective on this aspect of reality, see Bidinotto's post 21 above.

Ed

Post 31

Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 11:55amSanction this postReply
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     Interesting how much that varied disagreers about choices, fears, values, desires, perception-of-needs (physical or psychological), risk-worth, and ultimately, 'motivations' (for this world or some other) implicitly agree that it is quite important that the 'proper' view (definition?) of self-interest is to...their individual self-interest.

     At least it's established that not all choices/motivations are inherently such...'objectively' speaking.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 9/16, 12:33pm)


Post 32

Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 3:44pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Bidinotto,

Regarding mood and mind-altering chemicals, I disagree that "there's no way one can reasonably or objectively contend that such behavior is consonant with rational self-interest." There happens to be a new-age Timothy Leary (sounds like a misnomer, doesn't it?!) -- Ward Dean, M.D. (and John Morgenthaler, and Steven Fowkes) -- in agreement with me on this. Drugs not only can be fun, they can help some of us live optimally.

The next time you reach for a piece of comforting chocolate (comforting because of phenylethylamine), or have some carbs to relax in the evening, or some soda to perk yourself up -- remember that we thrive within a mix of mood and mind-altering chemicals; and judgments occurring from within that mix ought to be appropriately mitigated.

Ed



Post 33

Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 7:43pmSanction this postReply
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Come now, Ed. There's a world of difference between chemicals that improve energy and alertness, improving one's cognitive functioning, and those that distort one's perception of reality, impairing objective cognitive functioning. It's also clear, in context, which kind of drugs I was repudiating, and why.

Post 34

Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Part of this is semantics, but that won't stop a guy like me. You repudiated smoking and cocaine use. Smoking causes cancer so you repudiated it. Psychologically, cocaine is highly-addictive so you repudiated it. But that's making sweeping generalizations. For instance, have you ever heard about how much better lives most Parkinson's patients would get to lead -- if they would only take up smoking? Nicotine is like a wonder drug for them. And cocaine probably helped Freud produce volumes of data; and Robin Williams produce volumes of laughter.

Some folks do better on the edge. You could extend the argument to mountain climbers, many of whom who have died doing what they love (they still find frozen bodies at Everest). This alludes to what I had meant when I harped on Bill for attempting to over-define the Good Life. There are just too many variables for him (or for you) to get that nit-picky, and to start making a-contextual pronouncements about "good" and "bad" actions for Person X.

Habitual actions are much more amenable to moral judgment than single acts (because habitual acts form your character). So, instead of saying that smoking or cocaine use can't be justified, it would be more accurate -- even if still imperfect -- to say that chain-smoking and escalating cocaine use are unjustifiable (not because of the acts themselves, but because of how they impact any human life).

My main point is that something couldn't be good for anybody -- before we go ahead and pronounce it as a "bad" thing (for everybody), without contradicting ourselves. Some folks receive measurable net benefits from mind and mood-altering chemicals. Now granted, this information isn't widely disseminated -- and that, along with a held notion that prescriptions are the only right and good way to use drugs, might lead smart folks to think and say that non-prescription drug use (if it is meant to affect the mind or mood) is immoral.

Ed



Post 35

Monday, September 17, 2007 - 12:12amSanction this postReply
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     Interesting that, down this line of  "which 'drugs' (ahem!) are bad, and/or how much of which type is too much (or, not enough?) for which whoms in what situations" which all are discussing here, ages (eons?) ago Conan Doyle almost (ostensibly) evangelized this attitude of looking askance at individual and purposeful use of 'recreational' drugs through dear old Dr. Watson's ruminations about his primary and best friend, Sherlock.

     Seems like 'drugs' may change, but, their affects nwst, people don't.

2Bcont
LLAP
J:D


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Post 36

Monday, September 17, 2007 - 12:18amSanction this postReply
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     Was Doyle being, maybe, slyly...ironic...or more subtley, literarily subversive? I mean, why even bring up that Sherl used opium? Never relevent in any plot I believe.
    
     Stories-wise, though, the poppy was alluded as 'aiding' Sherlock's ratiocinations, no?
    
     Put THAT in your pipe (bong?) and smoke it!

--I daresay, 'the game's afoot'!--
LLAP
J:D


Post 37

Monday, September 17, 2007 - 3:40amSanction this postReply
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Ed, post #34:

"Habitual actions are much more amenable to moral judgment than single acts (because habitual acts form your character). So, instead of saying that smoking or cocaine use can't be justified, it would be more accurate -- even if still imperfect -- to say that chain-smoking and escalating cocaine use are unjustifiable (not because of the acts themselves, but because of how they impact any human life)."


Me, post #24:

"Regarding health risks from smoking or other chemical hazards. There's a threshold beneath which most chemicals and carcinogens pose no real risk. Our bodies' natural defenses and immune system deal with much of the daily toxins we ingest. However, smoking regularly can overwhelm one's immune system."


The moral?

Read.

Post 38

Monday, September 17, 2007 - 5:00amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

This could be an instance of hyper-literal hair-splitting -- but that won't stop a guy like me. "[S]moking regularly" is good for some folks and, therefore, cannot be pronounced as bad or unjustified (without contradiction).

Taking your typed words literally would have lead humankind (as a whole) to sub-optimal life-living. Even though there are many who would benefit from taking you literally, there are folk who'd get net benefit from breaking the rules (as you have laid them down). I fear more examples won't help, so will not marshall them until or unless solicited.

;-)

Ed


Post 39

Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote,
For instance, have you ever heard about how much better lives most Parkinson's patients would get to lead -- if they would only take up smoking? Nicotine is like a wonder drug for them.
That's because it slows the decline in dopamine levels. But you can get the same result in other, less hazardous ways, like taking deprenyl and the other drugs that are prescribed for Parkinson's disease. So, why would a Parkinson's patient want to take up smoking?

An interesting aside. Life-extension enthusiasts are now taking deprenyl in modest doses to preserve dopamine levels, since a decline in dopamine is one of the causes of aging and eventual death. Would you recommend that they take up smoking as well?

- Bill

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