About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Hello,


ever since I discovered Obectivism I am astounded and hooked by all the great ideas and answers the people around it are coming up with especially Rand of course.  

But at the same time I must still say after all those years I have been mostly "memorizing" the answers unable to transfer the spirit of all these ideas into my daily life because I don't know which concept or idea is important in any particular situation of my life. I am unable to reason for myself... I am still not getting to the point where I could say I am content with my philosophy.


Isn't asking the right questions as important as giving the right answers? ANd if so, why don't I read about asking the essential questions anywhere in the Objectivist forums etc.? 

Thanks for your answers I appreciate your efforts...


Greetings from Berlin, 

Sven



Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What do you want to do? What are your goals?

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 8:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sven,

Welcome.

There are many others on this site who can probably answer your post much better than I, although that has never prevented me from offering an opinion.

First you should remember that Objectivism offers no magic that will make your life, or your choices in life always correct and perfect. Objectivists make mistakes the same as anyone else. There are probably a few generations now of people who discovered and embraced Rand, but then broke away because they could not "be a John Galt" - felt it was impossible to live up to that ideal.

If you are looking for 'that one true value' or a 'true meaning of life' that will allow you to be perfect, you are looking for the wrong thing. Objectivism is about recognizing the inherent value in life, and living in a manner which best promotes one's life. It is about promoting one's own self interest, but more important, I feel, is its promotion of the concept of 'rational self interest'. This requires a broader or longer term view to the consequences of our actions. For example, if we steal, we have condoned the concept of stealing by our actions, and others may then feel justified in stealing from us. That immediate action - stealing - may benefit us in the very short run, but as it invites others to victimize us, it is therefore irrational and destructive. Destructive to what? Destructive to life, to the values of living.

One key factor in this example is the use of force. Stealing is essentially the forceful taking of another's property. Killing, beating - also force, the taking or harming of another's life.

So when you ask if there are important questions to ask - if you're inquiring if there is some way to test your choices to come to a right and moral decision - I'd say yes. There are questions you can ask yourself to help guide your actions.

1) Is it something you want to do, to say, or to support? If not, it is probably the wrong choice for you.
2) Will this decision infringe on anyone else's rights - i.e. does your action essentially include using force against another person? If so, then you are accepting use of the same force against yourself, and the decision is irrational and destructive.
3) Is it something you can see is beneficial to you, but still not what you want to do? Then this is simply a judgement call. The best I might (and would) advise is to go with your gut instinct. That will usually (but no guarantee) be your best choice.

This is a rather over-simplified explanation, but hope this is of some help

Best regards,
jt

Post 3

Friday, October 17, 2008 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Sven,

why don't I read about asking the essential questions anywhere in the Objectivist forums etc.? 
There's always been a tension between existentialist-leaning Objectivist folks who are what I would call Moral Libertarians -- folks who think there's nothing natural about human nature and that we're not just born mental blank slates, but moral blank slates, too-- and folks who, taking from Aristotle and going farther than he did, would more-readily prescribe behavior to others (because of how natural and shared our human morality is). 

Objectivism is a philosophy for humans (not any other kind of creature). Once you discover objective values for humans, you can check your life against those values and see how you score (and improve your score through time and directed effort).

Like JT, I will be giving you an answer that may not be thoroughly satisfying. You say that you have found yourself


unable to transfer the spirit of all these ideas into my daily life.
Well, I invite you to consider asking yourself seven questions initially, and revisiting them weekly or monthly -- and especially before making big decisions:

=======================
How could or why would this lead me to more or better beauty?

How could or why would this lead me to more or better freedom?

How could or why would this lead me to more or better friends?

How could or why would this lead me to more or better health (mental or physical)?

How could or why would this lead me to more or better knowledge/truth?

How could or why would this lead me to more or better purpose?

How could or why would this lead me to more or better self-esteem?
=======================

These questions can be like guard-rails that help to keep your life integrated and ascending. Here's an example:

You live in Germany and, in Germany, there was Agenda 2010 -- which was supposed to reform your economy. From what I heard about it, it is -- on paper -- a good thing, because it incorporates the values of capitalism/Objectivism. It has to do with freedom and freedom is an objective value to gain or seek. However, my guess is that the thing has failed or is failing, but you are the expert on that. And that is where "purpose" can come in. You, Sven, can become an expert on that (if you desired). You could write about it, get a group of folks together and have a meeting about it. If it's not working, what needs to change? That's the sort of answer you could discover.

How about this? Rand said that a culture has to change before its politics will (that politics follows the culture). Using the same example -- of your country on a tipping point toward trying out capitalism as a social system -- you might ask yourself if you would like to create a work of art that celebrates man as a potential hero, a potential hero who deserves to reap benefits of his own creative productiveness. That might increase beauty -- it could be a poem, or a short story -- and it would incorporate the values of Objectivism in your sense of purpose. Beauty's neat because you can just buy something beautiful that represents your values and take notice of that reminder of your values in your daily life.

Do you have friends? Are they good ones (sharing the important values)? Ask yourself how you could go about getting psychological visibility from friends with shared values on a regular interval. Rand said little about friends, but Aristotle said reams.

I haven't even touched on knowledge, health and self-esteem -- but I hope I've given you some ideas about how to incorporate the objective value of Objectivism into your life.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/17, 2:42pm)


Post 4

Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I see, I see...

 What do you want to do? What are your goals?

of course those are "good" questions.

 First you should remember that Objectivism offers no magic that will make your life, or your choices in life always correct and perfect. Objectivists make mistakes the same as anyone else. There are probably a few generations now of people who discovered and embraced Rand, but then broke away because they could not "be a John Galt" - felt it was impossible to live up to that ideal.

Thanks:-) I am happy to say that I am far beyond that.

If you are looking for 'that one true value' or a 'true meaning of life' that will allow you to be perfect, you are looking for the wrong thing. Objectivism is about recognizing the inherent value in life, and living in a manner which best promotes one's life. It is about promoting one's own self interest, but more important, I feel, is its promotion of the concept of 'rational self interest'. This requires a broader or longer term view to the consequences of our actions. For example, if we steal, we have condoned the concept of stealing by our actions, and others may then feel justified in stealing from us. That immediate action - stealing - may benefit us in the very short run, but as it invites others to victimize us, it is therefore irrational and destructive. Destructive to what? Destructive to life, to the values of living. 
I understand what u are saying. There isn't one thing to "have" which will make a life worth living or purposeful but the essence of all the values and choices one makes.

1) Is it something you want to do, to say, or to support? If not, it is probably the wrong choice for you.
2) Will this decision infringe on anyone else's rights - i.e. does your action essentially include using force against another person? If so, then you are accepting use of the same force against yourself, and the decision is irrational and destructive.
3) Is it something you can see is beneficial to you, but still not what you want to do? Then this is simply a judgement call. The best I might (and would) advise is to go with your gut instinct. That will usually (but no guarantee) be your best choice.

This is a rather over-simplified explanation, but hope this is of some help

This was some help. Without being offensive - I think we are both not very far in that field;-) Those questions are good examples and what I am now looking for are the rules behind efficient question asking. The way I have learned throughout all my life, and the way everybody learns is through interest in something we come across in our life. This interest is connected to emotions of joy or suffering. We could either be disciplined and fight for our good life or watch TV and get dumb and at age 70 be frustrated about all the missed chances. Now what I have come to see is that the way we once were had to change so that we can be the person we are today. The question that comes into my mind is how can I get better - better in my reasoning and my emotional state and whatever. I am trying to reach my full potential and to reach it I have to question myself and the things I do, to improve them. That's the way I have always done it and I think there's no other way and it's good like that. I am just curious if there is a technique or rule or anything similar behind question asking. An Objectivist strives for continual improvement of his situation. To do so I think he must know the right questions. Because nothing is more inefficient than an effort to answer a question that is BS - in turn it's unethical to do so.

What bugs me is that Objectivists have written books about logical reasoning or thinking or arguing "en masse"... but those topics all address the answer to a question, not the question itself.

For me efficient thinking - and I see it as a sport - is in desperate need of " good" questions. Maybe there is literature out there and if there is I would like to get a hold on it more than on a couple - well meant - examples:-)

Thanks to you too, Ed!

Greetings from Berlin


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The question that comes into my mind is how can I get better - better in my reasoning and my emotional state and whatever. I am trying to reach my full potential and to reach it I have to question myself and the things I do, to improve them.
Your reasoning ability and emotional state are highly dependent on your health. Things like a healthy diet, sleep, and exercise regimen come to mind. Beyond keeping your brain running on all cylinders, theres a few things you could try to experiment with like nootropics and working in the biotech fields.

I feel like the subject of this thread, "asking the right questions", is a silly smug "philosopher"'s "wisdom". Duh you have to question/think about the right things. But then you are left mystified "Oh no what question should I ask!".

Choose a goal, and figure out how to accomplish it. Try to break the goal down into subgoals that lead to the goal, and figure out how to accomplish them. Put a sequences of actions together and simulate their results, choose a sequence that is efficient and produces valued results. Example: How do I maintain my teeth so they look white and don't rot away? That's much wiser.

Post 6

Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

I feel like the subject of this thread, "asking the right questions", is a silly smug "philosopher"'s "wisdom".
But Dean, how about in politics (which is part of philosophy). Would you say that asking the right questions is silly or smug? Here are some questions. Some of them are the right questions, some of them are the wrong questions.

=============================
Are any of Obama's relatives Muslim?
Does Obama ascribe to the principle: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?
Does John McCain have a temper?
Does John McCain respect property rights?
Is Sarah Palin the sharpest tool in the shed?
Does Sarah Palin respect property rights?
Has Ron Paul ever been indirectly associated with racists -- or ever been called a "crackpot" by folks who don't know him?
Is Ron Paul the closest thing to an Objectivist in the entire Congress?
Is Joe Biden considered to have a certain level of expertise in foreign policy?
Is Joe Biden anti-man and anti-life?
Did Katie Couric make Sarah Palin trip up by pressing her for multiple examples of regulation by John McCain?
Is asking for examples of regulation merely barking up the wrong tree (because regulation isn't inherently good, as Couric had presumed by her very questioning of multiple examples of it)?
=============================

Even good answers to wrong questions can lead us away from value. Do you see that? Do you see that the questions are as important as the answers?

Ed


Post 7

Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, Those aren't questions! They are statements (because they have implied answers).

Post 8

Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

Your answer leaves me dumb-founded. What would be a question, then?

Ed


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A question is curiosity for information posed to oneself or others with the intent of gaining information. It is not important to be curious about everything, its important to be curious about things that help you achieve your goals.

Post 10

Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

You remind me of Bill Clinton, obfuscating even the meaning of "is" until it is brought into explicit relation to one's consciously-accepted, short-term goals. You argue as if you are an existentialist -- where there aren't independent meanings, only meanings that you give things after you've arbitrarily chosen your next goal.

Have you studied existentialism yet?

Ed


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
He's a Sartre-castic person, can't ye tell...;-)

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 12

Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
In other words, your questions are loaded. You aren't posing important questions, you are providing important answers.

I studied existentialism before Objectivism. I think your criticism in Post 10 is unrelated to Post 9 (and off topic), and that you are just not trying to understand what I'm saying.

I do share with existentialists that everyone has their own goals and their moral systems are relative to their goals. I share with Objectivists that my goals are to live a long enjoyable life, and we (who have this goal) share _very_ similar moral systems. Existentialists were like "everything is relative so morals between people are incompatible and are useless" and Objectivists are like "all morals should be relative to the goal of one's own life so they are useful" and I'm like "morals are relative to an individuals goals, and through compatible goals between many individuals, they share moral systems and morals are shared and useful to them. And my goals revolve around my primary goal to live a long and enjoyable life."

Post 13

Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm an existence-essentialist.

Sam


Post 14

Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dean,

In other words, your questions are loaded.

Maybe so, but they are questions that come loaded naturally (because of the way that reality is).

A question is curiosity for information posed to oneself or others with the intent of gaining information.
Half of the questions I posed were good questions for information.

Gotta go ...

Ed


Post 15

Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sorry Ed, I think I'm being a little too showy and argumentative!

See ya around,
Cheers,
Dean

Post 16

Monday, October 20, 2008 - 3:34amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
t n" "ANd if so, why don't I read about asking the essential questions anywhere in the Objectivist forums etc.?"
I guess we scared him off...

I agree that thinking well requires asking the right questions.  It is interesting that while Rand did lay heavy emphasis on the questions -- what standard?  what right? check your premises -- Objectvists as a loose group seem more interested in the answers.  The problem is not limited to us, of course, but it is insightful that when we have a disagreement, it takes a long while -- if it ever happens -- for someone to ask questions, as opposed to giving answers.  Why is that?

 



Post 17

Monday, October 20, 2008 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
For some reason, I recall Paul Neuman speaking to Richard Boone (in the movie "Hombre") - "I've got a question... How are you going to get back down that hill?"

jt

Post 18

Monday, October 20, 2008 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't think I am overemphasizing the role of questions in the thinking process and I am wondering how you others think about "thinking".

Logical reasoning is of course the major tool to answering questions once asked and I think the question is always (?) the beginning of a thinking process which marks the starting point of one's reasoning. If that starting point is misleading then small problems can mount into big ones.

Example:

Situation: A couple wants to go to the opera

She: Honey, please get ready for the night, the cab will be here any minute.
He: (to himself): Why does she always make me responsible for being late?

Maybe this issue is more one of communication studies, but its importance for philosophy which asks and answers the deepest questions out there is obvious to me. Without it it's easier to get lost in an argument with oneself than in any other field of knowledge.

Greets Sven


Post 19

Monday, October 20, 2008 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Sven,

If that starting point is misleading then small problems can mount into big ones.

Example:

Situation: A couple wants to go to the opera

She: Honey, please get ready for the night, the cab will be here any minute.
He: (to himself): Why does she always make me responsible for being late?
I think what you mean with your example is to show that the man should be asking different questions -- because the question he's asking himself is illegitimate/inappropriate/unacceptable/irrelevant to the context.

The three issues in this example of yours are:

1) a woman politely prompting her partner to get ready in preparation for a taxi cab
2) a man asking why she seems like a nag to him
3) the history between them (whether or not the man has been responsible for making them late)

The man is trying to integrate the woman's request that he get ready with his sense of past events. Apparently, he has felt rushed or nagged by her before (deserving or not). His proper response -- a response that would lead to human happiness -- would be for him to either come out and express his grievance with her about rushing or nagging him; or to use introspection to discover that she hasn't been the nag that he envisioned her to be. (and perhaps that he has made them late before).

Long-term fixes might involve:

1) finding different partners -- ones who had more of a similar sense of urgency regarding time-tables
2) working together to minimize the "natural" difference between them (him trying harder, her understanding more)
3) total validation of one of the other sides at issue -- either him realizing he's cramping her style and that that's wrong of him; or her realizing that they've never actually been late, whether she prompts him or not (i.e., that she needs to chill out)

:-)

A lot of the issue has to do with both parties finding their own separate way to the emancipating realization that relationships are partnerships -- two people cooperatively working together to become better people first, and also better partners (i.e., more loving and, therefore, more lovable people)

Ed


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.