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Post 20

Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Thank you for the kind words, Jules :-)

Post 21

Friday, October 19, 2012 - 4:27amSanction this postReply
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Steve, I will say that the right to life is primary. Then you will claim that bacteria are alive and have no right to life. And I will reply, yes, of course, I meant HUMAN life. Then you will reply that if someone attacks you, you have the right to kill them in defense. And I will yes, of course, given the circumstances, that could be the outcome. Then you will say something else and I will be more specific and so on and so on...

I may post a new topic thread on LOGLAN. You talk about moral rights and legal rights and now you talk about individual rights as if they are somehow more metaphysical than the other kinds of rights. You invent or discover moral rights, legal rights, political rights, natural rights, individual rights, contractual rights, and the Bill of Rights. You could say that you intend to become a heroin addict. I tell you, Steve, that is not right. You say that you have the right. I agree that you do, but that does not make it right. And around we go.

The problem is the word "rights."

I wonder if the concept of metaphysical right - "right to life" - makes any sense. Life is self-sustaining. That is a metaphysical fact. Mao Zedong's killings were wrong. Killing is wrong. (Please don't remind me that we eat carrots.) Killing is wrong and you do not need to invent the idea of "rights" as metaphysical requirements to make it wrong.

Moral right is not the absence of moral wrong. it is morally right to create, to enhance, to invent, to produce. Destruction is wrong. The absence of destruction is not "right" it is merely not wrong. No positive exists.

You could rigorously define all of your different "rights" (moral, individual, legal, metaphysical...) and always use the adjectival nouns that differentiate among them, Better, however, would be for you to find other words: permission, agreement, contract, condition, covenant, assignment, etc., as appropriate.

Until and unless we can resolve basic misunderstandings of common words, we cannot make any progress here. You have the right to disagree.


Post 22

Friday, October 19, 2012 - 6:13amSanction this postReply
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Why not stick to ANIMAL rights seeing as this is what the thread is about..jussssst sayinnnnn

Post 23

Friday, October 19, 2012 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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Brandon, have you gained any insight from these comments?

Post 24

Friday, October 19, 2012 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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Michael, you wrote:
Steve... You talk about moral rights and legal rights and now you talk about individual rights as if they are somehow more metaphysical than the other kinds of rights. You invent or discover moral rights, legal rights, political rights, natural rights, individual rights, contractual rights, and the Bill of Rights.
Moral rights and individual rights are the same thing. They are natural rights. They are the rights that we have simply by being human, and that we have no matter where we live - USA or China, and we have to discover them. Legal rights are things that we create by legislation or contract or judicial ruling. Needless to say, legal rights vary from person to person and from one location to another. Individual rights exist in a sense that is similar to the fact that gravity exists and we can be right or wrong in our grasp of these rights, but we don't create them... we discover them.
------------------

You wrote:
Killing is wrong and you do not need to invent the idea of "rights" as metaphysical requirements to make it wrong.
In fact, you are relying on the individual right to life in order to say that killing another person is wrong. You can't have 'wrong' things without, by implication also having things by 'right'.
-----------------------------------

You started using the word 'right' in an ambiguous fashion in your next paragraph where you said it is morally right to create, to enhance, to produce.

That is using the word 'right' to indicate the existence of value or the preference for a value. There is a difference in meaning between saying "It is good to create" and saying "I have the right to create."

When we use the 'right' to mean an 'individual right' we are using it to describe "a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man’s freedom of action in a social context." (Rand)


Post 25

Friday, October 19, 2012 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Jules,

When there is a fundamental disagreement with what the concept of rights is for humans, there will be little or no progress made in relating that concept to animals.

And, Michael and I both indicated we weren't interested in pursuing the concept of animal rights any further, but continued to discuss the concept of rights.

In Posts #1 and #2 Joe and Ed gave some excellent links to discussions/articles on animal rights.

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Post 26

Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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This has been beneficial Joe. Some of this is too late for the essay, but all the information I needed was supplied in time. What's going on now is good for clarification (on a level that was too long to talk about in the essay anyway) and possibly miscellaneous learning purposes.

The concept of rights themselves is important to animal rights because in order to determine what does and doesn't get rights one needs to determine what rights are in the first place (which I actually talked about and defined in the essay itself).

Post 27

Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
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Brandon, please keep us informed of how well your instructor graded your essay and consider posting it here for discussion.

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Post 28

Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Gotcha, she is vegetarian, but it seems she doesn't take offense to it.

A mistake is I needed to substitue 'refined carbohydrates' for 'carbohydrates.' Admittedly, I don't want to get into a nutritional argument on this website, which is an issue this essay brings up.

Essay:

There is one topic being debated heatedly in the field of food and nutrition: the question of eating animals. The winner of this issue will decide the fate of humanity because food plays a very central role in man’s life (man meaning the species, not the gender). What one eats and how much determines how well man lives and the resulting happiness gained from life; being hungry or sick because of bad nutrition will always degrade the quality of life while good nutrition will give one the energy to live life to its fullest—which benefits everyone, from oneself to those one acts with. If it is bad to eat animals, then humanity will have to radically change its eating habits, if it’s fine, then a large part of human nutrition remains intact.

The question of eating animals has two distinct parts. The first is ethical and the second part nutritional. The standard I am using is man’s life, which holds that all life-promoting actions/beliefs are good. This standard allows me to determine if consuming animals is really best for man and answer the question of eating animals accordingly. The ethics of eating animals deals with the morality of consuming animals for food; the second part deals with whether eating animals is nutritionally healthy or not. It requires getting to the heart of the concept of rights and value and finding what these words truly mean.

The morality of eating animals ultimately stems from one question: How different are we from other animals? For example, humans can feel pain and communicate with others and even some animals. However, animals can also feel pain and are capable of communication (however primitive)—even with humans. It is claimed that humans have rights and that animals do not, but why do humans claim rights and, even deeper, what is the nature of rights (and why should anyone have rights at all)? In order to answer the question of ‘is it moral to eat animals?’ I will define nature of rights to determine anything that qualifies for rights and anything that doesn’t. Next, I will discern the any distinctions between man and non-man because if I determine the distinction between man and non-man I can determine what groups qualify for rights, if any.
Peter Singer, a prominent advocate of animal rights, believes that the capacity for suffering and enjoyment is the morally relevant factor for determining rights (Klein 2004). By this standard, since animals can feel pain and joy, they deserve rights. However, this standard is based on utilitarianism (a philosophy that aims to maximize pleasure and minimize pain), which cannot provide good moral guidance and is anti-individual, and, for this reason, should be rejected. In brief, utilitarianism is the maximization of overall happiness, with the ends justifying the means. This can be used to justify actions such as confiscating the property of the rich and giving to those who want it or the killing of ‘unpleasant’ or just even just ugly or dumb people (they may annoy some people), which goes against the rights of an individual. Additionally, it doesn’t define what ‘happiness’ is and how to achieve it, so happiness could be wholesale slaughter of other people, which would be an acceptable goal if the majority agreed with it—whom would then set off to slaughter the minority—or happiness can be defined as ‘being wealthy’ and then that would justify theft and fraud in order to achieve it, since the goal is maximum happiness and robbing (even killing!) a few wealthy people is justified by utilitarianism. As seen, it is less about happiness and more about mindless self-indulgence.

Tom Regan, another such advocate, argues that all individuals (humans and non-humans) have inherent value (Klein). The qualification for this value is being able to act, have memory, desires, and others things (he isn’t very specific); if something has these traits they automatically have this inherent value. However, true value depends on the existence of a living being that has a choice between life and death; therefore, values are things required to continue that being’s life. If a being existed that could not die, regardless of its actions, that being would have no values since it does not need to make the choice between life and death (no matter its choice, it lives). Contrast this with a human being, whom must eat, sleep, drink, and find shelter at a minimal to survive, this being will therefore value food, water, shelter, and sleep (amongst other things not that overtly to survival) because those are the actions it must do in order to continue living. Therefore, inherent value is an invalid concept and animals, including humans, do not possess any inherent value and are valuable only to predators and those who seek make them subservient. No inherent value should not be confused with no value; an animal can become a pet, providing value to the own through emotional attachment or utility (seeing-eye dog). Also, an individual human’s life is, usually, very important to that individual, and has great value.

However, another classification of values comes into play: moral values. Moral values are the values pursued by organisms that can choose and reason, which is called volitional rationality; humans are the only known species to possess this. This is because having volitional rationality means that a system that guides choices and actions is needed. For, without choice, guidance is not needed because the individual will commit said action regardless and without reason, moral principles cannot be derived. It is said that animals have some sort of intelligence, this is true, but it is a primitive type of intelligence incapable of rationality because they can’t understand advanced concepts, and even the full gravity of its own existence other than the fact that it exists—show me a non-human that can pass a college-level chemistry course and I’ll reconsider. They also lack free will, the ability to choose change habits and minds on their own accord, which may or may not be because of external stimuli, while animals only change habits because of external stimuli. Therefore, animals do not have volition rationality or even normal rationality.

The leads to the basis of rights, in order to a being of volitional rationality to survive in a society of other rational beings each individual must have a set of freedoms that allows them to maximize the use of their rationality; this leads to the rights of life and its derived rights of property and others (such as a fair trial). Since animals do not possess volitional rationality, they do not get rights. Also, consuming and using animals for food and test subjects is beneficial to humans, it allows them to live and develop treatments for a variety of ailments, and, therefore, of value to humans. Foer says in his book, “Cruelty depends on an understanding of cruelty, and the ability to choose against it. (Foer 2009)” While this is true, it is completely irrelevant to the issue of eating animals, since animals do not have rights, treating animals cruelly is of no moral implication. Cruelty should not be confused with sadism, which is the act of causing pain for the sake of causing pain. Cruelty may serve a purpose in man’s life beyond causing pain to such animals (food, etc.) but sadism’s only goal is to cause pain. The debate of whether sadism is moral or not is still ongoing and I am no expert on this matter, so I will not say more.
The second point is, whether eating animals is healthy for human life or not. Many current nutritionists claim meat is unhealthy and can lead to problems such as heart disease and being overweight. However, all of the evidence they cite is merely observational, meaning it cannot prove a hypothesis but only establish it. Many clinical trials have been done to test this hypothesis but all of which have failed to prove this hypothesis. Additionally, there have been many recent clinical trials involving testing low carb diets vs. low fat diets, with the low carb diet always winning. Despite this lack of evidence, it has not stopped many from pushing a low-fat (and low meat in general) diet. To add salt to the wounds, there is far more evidence that carbohydrates are the cause of things such as obesity, high blood pressure, heart disease, cancer, and all the other diseases of civilization. I will talk about fat gain, scurvy, and the nutrients in meat.

Fat mobilization is hormonally regulated by hormones which act to store or mobilize fat, such as insulin and adrenaline respectively, and cell’s surface area—the larger the surface area the quicker fat mobilization occurs. Now, when insulin (the only fat storing hormone currently known) is high, the fat cells will be unable to mobilize their fat stores and as a result the body will no longer get the energy it needs, which will then signal the hypothalamus to tell you are hungry and need to eat more. Now, as you eat more, the triglycerides will continually build up in the fat cells causing them to expand, this expansion increases the rate at which these fat cells mobilize fat through an increase in surface area. Eventually equilibrium is reached where the rate of fat mobilization equals the fat storage effect, from the combined effects of insulin, cell surface area, and fat mobilization hormones; this equilibrium results in the person having excess fat to satisfy cellular energy needs. Note that insulin actively suppresses fat mobilization hormones.

Scurvy is caused when cells cannot take in enough Vitamin C. Normally, cells need very little Vitamin C, so one’s intake can be low; however, Vitamin C and glucose compete for the same transport protein, which transports the molecule inside the cell, with glucose being favored in the competition. In cases where glucose is high (such as after eating a high carbohydrate meal), the amount of glucose is much greater than the amount of Vitamin C, this means that glucose will almost always win the fight to be taken up by the cell and that very little Vitamin C is taken up. The Vitamin C that isn’t taken up by the cells is eventually excreted in urine.

In the case of meat nutrients, meat has all the essential amino acids, with the bonus of them being in ratios that maximize their benefits to humans, and all thirteen of the essential vitamins, with large concentrations of Vitamins A, E, and all eight vitamin B’s. Also Vitamin B12 and Vitamin D are only found in animals, though Vitamin D can be made from sunlight as well. It is true that whole wheat contains all the essential amino acids as well, but in order to get enough of these amino acids, one must eat 3.3 lbs of whole wheat a day compared to .75 pounds of meat (Taubes 2007). Additionally, doing my own research on the INTERNET, I have found that all the essential minerals I have looked up are found in meat and always have been in sufficient concentrations to satisfy daily requirements.
Today, one of the most important debates in the history of man is occurring: the question of eating animals. This question is important because, whatever the answer, this will affect human nutrition for the rest of the species’ existence. If the answer is no, then humanity will have to radically change its eating habits, if yes, then a large part of human nutrition remains intact. As said before, nutrition plays a central role in a person’s life, it will determine the amount of energy one has during the day, which affects how well they function, the ability of the body to maintain itself—including defending itself against diseases, and, finally, plays a role in one’s quality of life because being hungry and weak all the time is not good for one’s health—physical, mental, and emotional.
Now, the first part of this question is its morality. In this essay, two defenses of animal rights are discussed, one defending animal rights on the basis of utilitarianism and the other on the basis of inherent value. As explained, both of these arguments rest on fallacious beliefs, either the incorrect philosophy of utilitarianism or some non-existent ‘inherent value.’ For the second part of the question, almost all so-called scientific evidence that claims meat is unhealthy is not substantial enough to prove anything, only establish a hypothesis, and all scientific evidence capable of proving such a point states meat eating is healthy. Based on these two conclusions, I am an advent supporter of animal consumption.

References:
Foer J. (2009). Eating Animals. New York: Hachette Book Group.
Klein S. (2004). The Problem of Animal Rights. Washington D.C.: The Navigator
Taubes G. (2007). Good Calories, Bad Calories. New York: Random House Inc.



Post 29

Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - 2:07amSanction this postReply
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SW: Moral rights and individual rights are the same thing. They are natural rights. They are the rights that we have simply by being human...


Thanks for being more precise because I would say that the rights to life and property as well as the right to petition the government and be secure against unwarranted search and seizure as well as the right to vote and be afforded trial by jury and many other as well are all "individual rights." But if you mean that the right to life is an "individual right" though the right to seek political office without answering questions about your religion is a "legal right," and that legal rights are not individual rights, then fine. We can go with that for now.

(Also, I give you a pass on your contradictory claim above: "We create laws to implement our individual rights." If these individual moral natural rights exist antecedent to government, then why do we need laws to implement them? In fact, since laws are made by people in society, would not law-making rest on the prior recognition of natural moral individual rights?)

But I see a deeper problem (aside from using three different words to mean exactly the same thing).

moral rights = individual rights = natural rights

moral = individual = natural.

Sounds like Rousseau: Man in a state of nature is moral (but social living corrupts him). I know you reject that, but your words speak otherwise. The contradiction comes from the inaccurate language you rely on. The terms do have precision. You can inventory all the rights we can name and put them unambiguously into one or another exclusive class. But they do not hit the center of the target: how to differentiate the regard we have for each other from our relationships with any other living creatures.

Suppose that two Crusoes out on the savannah meet. In order for them them to both survive, each must recognize the "moral individual natural right" of the other to life. Of course, that would apply to Crusoe and an elephant. (We could call him "Tamba" but I want to call him 'Jambo" i.e., "Friend.") Jambo does not eat meat. Crusoe does. However, Jambo is way more powerful than Crusoe and if he had any idea what Crusoe was thinking at that moment, Jambo would pick Crusoe up in his trunk, dash him to the ground and stomp on him. For them both to survive, they must recognize each other's right to life.

Now, you might say - as many have - that Jambo is not a "rational animal" that he does not possess volition, the ability to make a moral choice. How do you know? Have you asked him? From what I have seen (second hand) of elephants, they seem smarter than cats, dogs, and horses, probably right up there with chimpanzees and dolphins.

We grant limited rights to children - right to life; no right to property - even
before the age of reason. I referred earlier to a commercial I saw about people with Down Syndrome. Downies insist that they do all the things you do, holding jobs, for instance. Should Downies have the right to firearms? How would you like to come to trial and find a Downie or twelve on the jury? You would certainly object to finding an elephant empaneled.

(I want it perfectly clear that I am happy to be enlightened where I was ignorant about Trisomy 21. I just wish that more people thought clearly about their relationships with all other living things.)

Animals in society may have no individual moral natural rights, but they do have protection under the law: they have legal rights. They have status apart from their owners. The government will intervene on their behalf as it would for a child (or a downie). This is a fact. Apparently, some Objectivist think that this is wrong, like income tax or eminent domain. They want to remove the legal rights of animals. Other people (not Objectivists) want to extend the legal rights of animals and apparently even extend to them what Steve Wolfer calls natural individual moral rights. That is wrong on many levels and in many contexts. More on that later.

Brandon - nice essay. You covered a lot of ground. You did not prove anything, but you did cite an array of facts that substantiate your claims. For instance, you say that animals are not rational but you cite no scientific studies to establish that. You do not need a journal citation to support an obvious fact, of course. But the problem is that without a standard of rationality - qualitative or quantitative - you have the challenge of irrational people. What actions demonstrate that a person has lost the ability to reason and is therefore no longer human, by definition?

Jules - much has been written on RoR and elsewhere on this. If you read all of that are are still not satisfied, what would you like to consider? Is another perspective or context or set of facts helpful here? "Animal rights" (so-called) cannot be decided without placing them in the context of "rights" generally. And, of course, some standard must differentiate all other animals from human animals. Andrew Wiles's proof of Fermat's Last Theorem ran 100 pages. We do not have so good a tool as mathematics, but must rely on natural language. Bear with us.


(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 10/23, 3:09am)


Post 30

Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Michael. It could be a lot longer, and go into a lot more detail with explanations and sources, etc. But I'm assuming you aren't going for a master's thesis here. The essay does a good job of introducing and defining some concepts and backing up your position. I agree with everything that was said.

I think I would like to see a debate between a vegetarian and someone like Michael Phelps or Arnold Schwarzenegger, who needed so many calories/protein/creatine/vitamins, etc. to accomplish their goals. I know there are some vegan/vegetarian professional athletes, but I think it would be an awful lifestyle with unbelievable amounts of supplements. It's legitimate to say that many (if not most) Americans could benefit from eating less meat or cleaner meat, but that doesn't require complete elimination, certainly not for me anyway.

Post 31

Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
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I should have that the essay was limited to 6 pages (double spaced). This was all I could fit, unless I wanted to throw things in without really explaining them (which wouldn't have been a good idea).

Post 32

Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You wrote:
...I would say that the rights to life and property as well as the right to petition the government and be secure against unwarranted search and seizure as well as the right to vote and be afforded trial by jury and many other as well are all "individual rights."
Yes, the right to life and property are clearly individual rights. But the right to petition the government is, technically, a constitutional right, which makes it a legal right. It would also be a principle in political science that arises from man being sovereign and it is consistent with logic telling us that we require mechanisms to protect that sovereignty.
--------------------------

You wrote:
...if you mean that the right to life is an "individual right" though the right to seek political office without answering questions about your religion is a "legal right," and that legal rights are not individual rights, then fine. We can go with that for now.
Yes, the right to life is an individual right - we would possess that right even if there were no government. The right to seek office without answering questions about religion would be a legal right because I assume it was passed by legislators somewhere. I assume that law (or laws - plural - maybe there are many such laws in different states) is an attempt to implement constitutional protections in the bill of rights (legal rights) and they derive from individual rights. Legal rights can directly support individual rights. They remain separate entities in the sense that a court will have jurisdiction where it is a legal right, and there will be legislation, or code or court opinions to go on.
-----------------------------

You wrote:
(Also, I give you a pass on your contradictory claim above: "We create laws to implement our individual rights." If these individual moral natural rights exist antecedent to government, then why do we need laws to implement them? In fact, since laws are made by people in society, would not law-making rest on the prior recognition of natural moral individual rights?)
I don't want a "pass" on anything. If I make an error, or there is a confusing item, or you don't understand something, bring it up.

In this case, it is not contradictory. The individual rights do exist antecednt to government (like your right to your life), but we do need laws to recognize and describe the rights so they can be enforced. Look at all of the laws that describe prohibitions against violation of that right to life: i.e, homicide (1st degree, 2nd degree, man slaughter, etc.) - and the laws that describe the presentation of evidence, the sentencing guidelines, etc.

1. The individual rights need to be take form as law, and
2. All laws should have their basis in individual rights.

The purpose of government is the protection of individual rights and the means of fulfilling that purpose is with laws. So, yes, good law-making does rest upon the prior recognition of individual rights.
----------------------------------

Regarding "Moral = individual = natural":

"Moral" refers to the right being a principle that belongs to the field of morality - that it arises comes out of metaphysics and epistemology as opposed to being a product of legislation. You use the adjective 'moral' when you want to distinguish a moral right from a legal right.

"individual" is redundant in the sense that only individuals have moral rights, and that the moral right of one person is identical to the moral right of another. But it has at times become necessary to distinguish between the phony collective rights that have been proposed by various political theoreticians.

"Natural" refers to these rights arising out of our nature as opposed to being given to us by a government or law or special circumstance of time or place. You said that I agree with Rousseau's idea of man in a state of nature being moral but becoming corrupt when living in social circumstances. I do not agree with that and I do not know of any words of mine that would give that impression.
------------------------------------

You wrote:
[Rights as I have been describing them do not hit the center of the target: how to differentiate the regard we have for each other from our relationships with any other living creatures.
That is your target, not mine. I want to have an objective means of creating and maintaining an environment that lets men pursue their goals free from initiation of violence, threats, fraud and theft. That's my kind of target. My description of individual rights (and Rand's) only applies to humans. So there is no further need to differentiate our relationships from each other with different species.
--------------------------------------

Your Crusoes example isn't workable. It presumes a right to life for the elephant, but that is your animal rights and is somehow mushed together with man's rights and all without saying how that works. It is just plain silly to have us considering the need for an elephant to recognize and observe a moral right and to say that if the elephant doesn't do this that they both won't survive. If you think that you can ask elephants moral questions and get rational answers... fine. Go ahead and then maybe you want to talk to insects or virus, but please don't waste any more of my time with that kind of 'thinking'.
-----------------------------------------------

You said you didn't want to pursue discussing animal rights. Did you change your mind?

As to government intervening on behalf of downs syndrome victims or children... that's because they have been given legal rights, and in many cases those legal rights were properly derived from individual rights and that can be done because the children and victims of downs syndrome are humans and have such rights.

Michael, I don't call these rights "natural individual moral rights." I don't string all three adjectives together. Please don't put words into my mouth. By the way, you may not have noticed that it isn't clear in that paragraph what you are referring to when you say, "That is wrong..." Your mistaken idea of what I call rights? Or, extending such a concept to animals? Or, removing legal protections of animals?
--------------------------------------------------

Michael, Brandon shouldn't need to cite scientific studies to establish that animals are not rational - or, to cite studies that prove the moon is NOT made of green cheese.

If we come upon the severed head of a person in a morgue, do we have any question as to whether or not that is a human head? If a physical anthropologist tells us that a femur is from a 1,000 year old human child, do we question that and say, "Hey, wait a minute, that femur can't reason, therefore it can't be said to be human or even belong to human unless you can show me a 1,000 year old child, who hobbles along without a femur, but still has a capacity to reason." I remain human even if I get so irritated as to stray from being rational for a moment, and I'm still a human when I'm asleep, and would still be a human if I were to fall into a coma. Given all that, don't you think you should reconsider the way you handle your definitions? When an individual loses the capacity to reason, they do not become a member of some other species!

Post 33

Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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You wrote:
...I would say that the rights to life and property as well as the right to petition the government and be secure against unwarranted search and seizure as well as the right to vote and be afforded trial by jury and many other as well are all "individual rights."

Yes, the right to life and property are clearly individual rights. But the right to petition the government is, technically, a constitutional right, which makes it a legal right. It would also be ...


Let me perfectly clear: You are making up your own definitions. When any literate, intelligent, small-l libertarian, including a capital-O Objectivist, says "individual rights" they mean the rights enjoyed by an individual. Individual rights include the "natural rights" with which we are born, as well as the "political rights" required by a just society, as well as "legal rights" such as voting age, drinking age, riparian rights, and even (perhaps) the right to adverse possession of your neighbor's property.

Yes, we can and do discuss - even argue - what that all means, but "individual rights" are not identical with "natural rights" (or what you call "moral rights") in exclusion to other kinds of rights.

Individual rights is a broad term. I meant it that way. You use it in a special way. I was willing to accept that to move the conversation forward but we have gotten off track. I must insist that "individual rights" is the rubric under which other rights can be listed. I apologize for letting this become an issue, I should have identified the error earlier.

When an individual loses the capacity to reason, they do not become a member of some other species!

Really? Why not? How do you define "human"?

My point with the elephant was not to defend animal rights per se but only underscore that life is self-sustaining. Rights exist only because we have the wherewithal to identify and assert them. We all easily accept "right to life" but I am questioning whether or not that is redundant. If you can assert such a right and defend it, then you have it. Defending the right may come from the agreement of others to recognize it or you may need to be more pro-active. Jambo has the means to defend his "right to life." So, to me, the claim that "right to life" is special to humans not supportable.

I understand the claim that you have a "right to life" even if a communist state violates it. I could have said that a thousand times in the last 45 years myself. Now that I know more, I question it. I propose that by "right to life" we actually mean only "the ability to sustain life" especially if Crusoe does not need rights because rights are only required by social living.

We gloss over "human" as if the word were well-defined in all contexts. I point out that often it is not. Moreover, I must insist that any truth about "rights" must be applicable to any new case. We are on the verge of discovering new intelligent life, this century, the next, inevitably, and our science fiction alludes to it in stunning tapestries of thought and reflection. We do not need to find it among the stars. It may happen first that a self-aware computer program could electronically file for corporation. (See Valentina: Soul on Sapphire) Who would know? We too easily conflate and confuse what it means to be:

  • sapient

  • volitional

  • sentient

  • conceptual

  • self-conscious

  • self-aware

  • intelligent

  • moral


The valid and appropriate understanding of "animal rights" (so far) is that we protect them in society from cruelty. (Do you wish to defend dog fighting as a sport?) The rights of their nominal "owners" cease. Thus, I point out that we do grant limited rights to other life forms based on what we perceive of their range of abilities. Viruses don't no respect... but elephants do, and properly so. Ayn Rand was vitriolic in her condemnation of "primitives" and "savages" as non-conceptual beings. Do they deserve rights? If so, which ones?


You said that I agree with Rousseau's idea of man in a state of nature being moral but becoming corrupt when living in social circumstances. I do not agree with that and I do not know of any words of mine that would give that impression.

moral rights = individual rights = natural rights
moral = individual = natural.
Sounds like Rousseau: Man in a state of nature is moral (but social living corrupts him). I know you reject that, but your words speak otherwise.



(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 10/24, 6:49pm)


Post 34

Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 8:58pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You wrote:
Let me perfectly clear: You are making up your own definitions. When any literate, intelligent, small-l libertarian, including a capital-O Objectivist, says "individual rights" they mean the rights enjoyed by an individual. Individual rights include the "natural rights" with which we are born, as well as the "political rights" required by a just society, as well as "legal rights" such as voting age, drinking age, riparian rights, and even (perhaps) the right to adverse possession of your neighbor's property.
I am NOT making up my own definition. Your implication that I'm on the other side of your position which you claim means I stand against all "literate, intelligent, small-l libertarian, including a capital-o Objectivist" is nonsense. Do you expect me to cave in to that kind of argument all a tremble fearing I might not be one of these literate, intelligent people?
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Rand, Branden and Peikoff all use "inividual rights" to mean "moral rights" and with the understanding that they arise out of human nature.
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Here is Ayn Rand on individual rights: "Since Man has inalienable individual rights, this means that the same rights are held, individually, by every man, by all men, at all times." But look at what you have claimed. Different jurisdictions grant the legal right to vote at different ages - or not at all. You are claiming that voting at age 21 is an "individual right" and that is not so. Ayn Rand consistently used "individual rights" in a way that was synonomous with natural rights and would never have said that some law passed somewhere, in a just society or not, would be the same as natural rights or individual rights.

Americans today have the legal right to collect Food Stamps if their income falls below a certain level, but those legal rights are not "individual rights" in the sense that Ayn Rand meant. The government currently has the legal right to take my property through eminent domain, but that legal right has nothing to do with individual rights, which would be violated by the exercise of eminent domain. If you can't grasp the difference between "individual rights" and "legal rights" then you will continute to be unable to discriminate between good laws and bad laws in a consistent fashion.

I understand at this point that you want to use individual rights to mean any right, or any kind, that is held at that moment by a particular individual. That is not how Rand, Branden or Peikoff used the term and it is not how it is understood in Objectivist circles. So, my suggestion is that you get in the habit of using the term "moral rights" - unless it is your desire to confuse things. I suggest that since you persist in seeing "natural" as meaning "intrinsic" or something out of Rousseau (in that instance you were equivocating between 'nature' as in untouched or outside of humans, and 'nature' as in the identity of a thing).

Less than a week ago, in post 13, you were denying that anyone possesses rights based upon their nature. You explicitly stated that you did not differentiate between moral and legal rights. You said, "The concept of 'natural rights' is an intrinsicist error." Yet Rand stated, "Individual rights is the only proper principle of human coexistence, because it rests on man’s nature..."
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You decide to define "the right to life" as "the ability to sustain life." That gives a bacterium the right to life as long as it succeeds. That gives a murderous thief equality in "sustaining" his life with his victim who is attempting to "sustain" his life in self-defense. Moral relativism? Pragmatism? Or, just nonsense.

Michael, I'm losing interest in continuing this discussion with you - I find too little reward in it. You said you weren't going to continue on with animal rights, but you continue to do so. You claim you are an Objectivist but too stray far on things as core as "individual rights".

Since you clearly think that you have a better grasp of what rights are, and because you don't agree with Rand's formulation, you should take some of her quotes on rights and then present your explanation as to what the nature of her fallacy is.

Post 35

Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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Steve, this is for me an exploration of ideas.  For you it is something else.  I am not invested in proving this or disproving that, but only seeking to discover the roots and consequences of our ideology of "rights." Even Ayn Rand was inconsistent and incomplete on this subject.  Her feelings were in the right place, but over time, in many essays, she relied on vernacular to make her point. 

Your example of the thieving murderer demonstrates these ambiguities.  You posit his existence and create him - without a jury trial, I add, but OK.  I said that he has a right to life as long as he can sustain it.  The determination of his status would remove that, as it would for a harmful bacterium.  The reactions within his environment to him would kill him  (or otherwise isolate him like smallpox kept in a laboratory). 

The questions here all involve the definitions of "rights."  You offered a hierachy.  With moral rights at the root and others (legal, social, etc.) further out.  But they all can come back to the right to life.  If you have no right to serve on a jury because you have no driver's license, then by logical extension your right to life is in jeopardy because you live in a society that does with you as others see fit.

The problem of so-called "animal rights" intersects human rights when humans are defined as "rational animals."  You never defined human any other way, yet you refuse to identify what rights you lose in proportion to your irrationality... or gain in proportion to rationality (measured how)?

This is all very complicated and if you find it tiring, I can understand that.


Post 36

Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You wrote:
If you have no right to serve on a jury because you have no driver's license, then by logical extension your right to life is in jeopardy because you live in a society that does with you as others see fit.
The right to serve on a jury is a civil right - a kind of legal right. That has no effect on your moral right to your life. It is true that a government that is capricious in its descriptions of legal or civil rights, might also be less concerned with respecting your right to live, but their attitude and their actions can not change your right to live. They can refuse to respect your moral rights, but they can't take them away - they are unalienable. That is why moral rights are so important. They are the guiding compass for the creation of just law. We need to create laws - to have that jurisdictional monopoly of one set of laws that are objective and can be known ahead of time. They should flow from a sound understanding of what our moral rights are. One government creates a set of laws that are objective and define those acts that can not be taken based upon the moral right to be free of initiated force. Another government makes laws that allow one group of citizens to rob others. In both cases, the citizens of both countries still have the same moral rights, despite being under different legal systems - the first which respects their moral rights with legal rights that are in sync, and the other which allows the violation of moral rights with legal rights that are out of sync with moral rights.

You wrote:
Your example of the thieving murderer demonstrates these ambiguities. ... I said that he has a right to life as long as he can sustain it. The determination of his status [as a thieving murder] would remove that, as it would for a harmful bacterium. The reactions within his environment to him would kill him (or otherwise isolate him like smallpox kept in a laboratory).
You are making whatever governs the environment take the place of, or become, the moral principles. If a person with a weakened immune system is exposed to a harmful bacterium, it thrives - it sustains itself, and the infected human dies (does not sustain himself). In your system, the bacterium has the moral right to live and the human did not. I could posit systems where a thieving murder is allowed to continue and no protection is afforded his victims and it that case the circumstances will have defined the moral right to life, according to your system, such that a murder has a right to life but the victim doesn't. How can you continue to see any morality in that?!?!?!

You wrote:
The problem of so-called "animal rights" intersects human rights when humans are defined as "rational animals." You never defined human any other way, yet you refuse to identify what rights you lose in proportion to your irrationality... or gain in proportion to rationality (measured how)?
I have said, repeatedly, that it is our ability to choose that is the part of our nature that gives rise to the concept of rights - my position is nearly identical to Rands in this area. You, the individual, don't lose any rights when you are irrational (assuming you don't act to violate the rights of another person). And you don't 'gain' rights by being more rational. The thing to understand here is that our human nature is ours by virtue of kind of creature we are and not by our behavior at the moment, or an illness, or that we are in a coma or asleep. In all of those cases we are just irrationally behaving humans, sick humans, comatose humans, or sleeping humans - but always humans. You see this recognized in the law where they appoint a guardian for a person who can't look after their rights. They still have the rights even if they can't defend them. It makes no sense to see rights arising from each individual, individually - as if my rights might ebb and flow based upon my mental activities. You are right that this is a complex subject - and it is complex even before we attempt to think about other animals. Our rights are rooted in metaphysics, but it is conceptualized from the base of human nature NOT each individual human, but for anyone who is human. But the rights won't have any purpose in the absence of others - they are conceptualized for the purpose of ordering society in a way that best suits humans - that is the link between morality and metaphysics.

I definitely find "animal rights" to be a tiring subject, and have no desire to discuss that. You could look at Ken Wilber's BMI (Basic Moral Intuition) where he tries to sketch out a way to assign moral value based upon degree of evolution and a number of other core attributes - both individual and cultural. But I seem to remember that it has a problem with making the life of some entity an intrinsic value and seemed to ignore the concept of 'valuer.' (see "Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality: The Spirit of Evolution" 2000.)

But moral rights and the difference between legal rights and moral rights don't tire me in the least.

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