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Post 0

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
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I voted for Singapore from the choices listed but I think Andorra is a better choice. There has to be a reason Andorra has the highest life expectancy in the world. Perhaps its minimal government regulation and taxes?
(Edited by Bob Palin on 5/29, 3:28pm)


Post 1

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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Definitely Estonia, due to the fact that they're more open to free market capitalism and liberty than most nations.

-- Brede

Post 2

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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While the poll is still able to be edited, I suggest you add "none of the above" and "stay in the US" as options.

Ted

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Post 3

Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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Where are Israel, a free Alaska, and a lunar colony as alternatives? Where is a starship or a floating island? I think this poll is decidedly anti-American and not truly forward or outward looking, but is actually reactionary in the true and passive sense. Reactionary as in, "If Bush wins, I'm moving to France." I do respect Johnny Depp, at least he doesn't just talk about moving to France.

And, of course I wouldn't "rather die." That again is an unfair skew. I'd rather be a rebel than an emigre.

The real alternative is "I'd rather stay and fight."

Ted Keer


(Edited by Ted Keer
on 5/29, 10:55pm)


Post 4

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Ted, the Poll here is not the one I submitted.  The administrator edited it, though I found his addition of "Other" and "I'd rather die" at once useful and witty.  Therefore, I have no complaint.

I confess that this is, indeed, controversial and challenging.  We Objectivists inherited Ayn Rand's love for America, but rational politics must transcend traditionalist nationalism.  So, I tossed it up for discussion.  I have not voted.  And I have not emigrated.

 In my old neighborhood, there was always a tension between those of us from old immigrant families who came here to enjoy freedom and opportunity and the newer "displaced persons" who were only hanging around until their homelands were freed from communism.   They wanted to go back to the life that we left. 

We Objectivists are predisposed to thinking the worst about Scandanavia.  Why did the USSR collapse, but not Finland, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark?  Why do they continue to enjoy a high standard of living.  According to all of our precepts, they should have slid into chaos and poverty in the previous generation.  You can cite all the facts and figures about taxation you want.  What counts -- oddly enough -- is how people feel.  In point of fact, as a result of protests here and support in Parliament, our taxes in 1776 were only one-fourth of what they had been in 1763.  I have never lived outside the United States.  In my whole life I spent as much time in Canada as I did in Switzerland: five days each.  Lacking personal experience, I have nothing against which to compare the statistics.

You mentioned the moon and the Antarctic and I do not know how serious you were.  "Vonu" means "invulberability to coersion."  There are vonuans living on the continent in motor homes and on the high seas on sailboats.  Urban vonuism is making a paradise for yourself in what everyone else calls a "ghetto."  There are many alternatives.

As a general rule, it is hard to prove that staying to fight is optimal.  Historically, those who flee survive.  The ancient Greeks, being mercantile, rational, and monetized packed up and rowed away in the night when surrounded by Persians or Catheginians.  The loins of Roma gave forth tens of thousands of sons who died in battle after battle -- fine enough for the Senate and the People of Rome, but each one of the boys was individually and permanently dead.

Modern nationalism is not rational patriotism.  Nationalism is a consequence of Hegelian idealism, and is not pro-life. 

Whether America is (or was) the greatest nation in history is another question, entirely.


Post 5

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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France, with an independent income of at least 100,000 euros and a long-term lease on the Ile St. Louis.  Because of their low humane orientation I'd try to avoid driving, though back roads in the country are OK.

Post 6

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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During the dot-com crash, my wife and I seriously considered New Zealand. We vacationed there in 2000 and loved it. Also, it consistently scores high on various freedom indices.

Post 7

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan Zimmerman: "... New Zealand ... consistently scores high on various freedom indices.
Yes, it does, indeed, though my particular references looked at factors other than the ones you and normally consider, so it was lumped in with the "Britsh" nations such as the USA and Canada.  According to my sources, it does score higher on the Secular-Rational scale (about the median) and extremely high on Self-Expression.

Yet, some Objectivists consider it a horrible welfare state inhabited by "sheeple." 


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Post 8

Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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I didn't inherit my love of America from Rand, she validated it and so, I approved of her.

I happen to think that Anglo-American culture is the highest cultural tradition on Earth, some popular music and film of the last five decades notwithstanding.

The best of the Greek, Roman, Judaeo-Christian Celtic and Germanic traditions are distilled in Anglo-Saxondom. English literature is unsurpassed. American and British film and popular music are unrivalled. English is the language of science and commerce.

Liberty, law, and fair play are simply taken for granted in America and England in a way they are nowhere else. Denmark and the Netherlands may be efficient and polite.

"What counts -- oddly enough -- is how people feel."

I am quite happy being a gringo, and would happily fight for the privilege. (I actually made a placard and went to protest against Gore's attempted 2000 coup.) I have travelled overseas. Nice to visit, wouldn't want to have to live there.

Ted

Post 9

Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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America is/would be a great place to live. The only problem is that it is filled with Americans; they are not high on the KLASS scale: http://www.solopassion.com/node/2521 

Italians come up #1 on that meter. The rest of Europe, Japan, Asia, South Americans, then the English, haven't been to India--Americans, Kiwis, and Aussies tied for who looks best in slept-in T shirts.

I didn’t consider technologies, political systems, or freedom stats.

Guy


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Post 10

Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Yet, some Objectivists consider it a horrible welfare state inhabited by "sheeple." 
Fortunately, I now ignore those Oists ;)


Post 11

Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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What?!! Ye Lind-sayed out?????

Post 12

Saturday, June 2, 2007 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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It is interesting that while Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Great Britain are left out of this poll, as well as the Netherlands, like these neglected options the other first four choices are all countries of Teutonic nationality or former rule. Hungary was part of the Austrian Empire. Estonia was part of the Hanseatic league. The Scandinavian countries are all part of the Nordic linguistic area (as is Iceland, which is left out) and Germany, Austria and Lichtenstein all count German Proper as their official tongue, while Switzerland is predominantly German speaking. Hong Kong and Singapore were both colonized by Teutons, after being settled by Chinese. Even Nigeria was a Teutonic colony, and Rus is an ethnonym for Vikings. (I assume the inclusion of these two countries was a joke.) Is there something about the Teutons we should know about? N'y-a-t-il pas de liberté en France?

Ted

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