RoR: Forum

My thanks to the person who was willing to admit "I wish I'd had kids."

Post 1

Monday, August 27, 2007 - 7:56pm

Tried, but never happened.....

Post 2

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 7:16am

I didn't vote in the actual poll, since people with Objectivist-minded teenagers weren't considered!
:-(

(I don't have a "young kid who'll be raised Randian", nor can I claim to have already raised an adult Objectivist---my son just turned 15.)

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I'm surprised that teens were omitted from consideration. The teen years are the most challenging of childhood...for the parent and the child.

Your very dependent child is becoming a fully independent adult, and any rational parent rejoices in this. Okay, truth is, it's bittersweet...this person who has needed you to take care of them for years is now on the verge of not needing you to do anything for them, except maybe listen when they want to talk. And it's hard to start dialing down the parental instincts, but you must. (My son does not love it when I fix his collar or start messing with his hair, especially in public, but sometimes I just can't help it.)

You start to get used to the fact that your baby isn't your baby anymore. He's thinking more and more on his own. He has more influences (besides you) than ever before. And he is finally old enough to make life-altering mistakes. (This thought keeps you up at night.)
And this is the time in his life when you actually get a first glimpse of whether or not the ideals you worked to instill in him when he was little (and still under your thumb) actually took hold securely and permanently. Now, when he is old enough to disagree with you, to make his own decisions, to go places on his own, to choose his own friends and activities.
And the choices he makes will either make you beam with pride.....or break your heart.


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Rand's influence has been in my household for about 8 years or so. I never shoved Objectivism down my son's throat, but then I never really needed to. From his first exposure to Rand (Anthem, I think), he enjoyed the books, and agreed with the message (as much as he could grasp at his age at the time.)

My son has even written about The Fountainhead for school; he'll sometimes refer to someone as a "Peter Keating" when he's trying to describe (or just insult) them. And he's never been the stereotypical, smart-ass teen who thinks he already knows it all; he has no problem discussing things with me, or asking for my advice.
(---Did you catch that? Because that part is huge...a teenager who still listens to his mom. LOL! He actually thinks I have wisdom and knowledge!!! Of course, I don't know how much longer I can keep up the ruse, but that's another story. I'll keep you posted :-D)

In our home, Objectivism wasn't just for my benefit; it helped me teach my son the kinds of things I wanted him to know (the kinds of things I wish I'd been taught at his age.) And his knowledge of the basic ideas actually form a defense, of sorts, against what I consider to be frighteningly improper influences (namely socialist educators; he definitely won't be able to escape them in college.)

So, (like a sentiment Ted Keer once expressed in another thread a long time ago) I certainly hope that other people will actively choose to raise their children with Objectivist ideas. It really is like providing them with armor against the onslaught of irrational ideas in the world. Trust me.

Erica

Post 3

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:42am

Erica, you must have noticed that certain of the categories overlap in this poll. I saw no way to design the questions exclusively. (I am happy that my polls always cover such a broad range so well distributed in responses.) I love children, but probably won't have any, and do intend to work on my niebles once they're old enough. So I voted for the second to the last choice. I think you could go for I raised my adult child as an Objectivist given your circumstances. Of course, whether it stuck is up to the child. My parents would have to say they had raised their now adult children as Catholics, even if we don't practice.

Your son will get over the don't fuss with my collar in public stage especially after he's had a decent girlfriend do it to him, certainly by 21. I certainly wouldn't be bothered by the attentions of a hot babe like you wanting me to look good.

Ted

Post 4

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:16am

I voted for I have young kids who'll be raised Randian in the sense that I will encourage them to read Rand and that I hope to instill in them the metaphysical/epistemological foundation they need to derive their own ethical, political and esthetical beliefs. Obviously, I will have to set some ethical boundaries early on in their lives.

But having been raised in a religious home, I'm wary of trying to shove my beliefs down the throats of my children. Never mind the hypocrisy in trying to force an individualist belief system onto someone else.

Erica said:

And the choices he makes will either make you beam with pride.....or break your heart.

I always resented this attitude in my parents when I was younger, specifically how bad choices I made seemed to effect their evaluation of how they did as parents. I realize your quote above might just relate to feelings for your son and I don't mean to suggest your feelings are wrong. But their attitude always made me feel as if they thought I should still be under their influence and that threatened my independence. This is especially true since, in hindsight, I think my parents raised me pretty well and should feel pride in that I've accepted many of the values they taught me, just from a different starting basis (religion plays a major role here).

I realize this is probably one of those situations where "you won't understand until you're a parent," but I would find it interesting if you, or other parents on RoR, could expand on this topic. I always hoped that at some point, I would no longer take responsibility for the actions of my children and that I would not let their bad decisions affect me past a certain level. Do you think such an attitude is possible and/or healthy, or am I just in for a rude awakening in about sixteen years? :)

(Edited by Ryan Brubaker on 8/28, 1:11pm)

Post 5

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 2:04pm

Part of this so-called problem lies in the changing attitude of what it means to be a parent... in olden times, it meant as much to be raising 'another self', and thus the reflection, for better or worse, of its success in the effected 'cloning'.... properly, however, the purpose of a parent is to raise another independent being, to shift that dependent youngster into one utilizing its own independent judgments, for better or worse, according to the lights it had acquired.... the parent as teacher, if you will - not indoctrinator, as most seem to sense it, sadly, but as an enlightening one, to the extent the parent is capable of doing.... in either case, tho, there is the emotional entanglement - with that resulting comment made by Erica - not by any means an insulting one, but a heartfelt one gendered out of one's efforts, for better or worse, of the best that one could see to do under the various circumstances that came to pass....

I should add, a part of the problem also lies in the social shifting of the understanding of what it is to be a child..... properly, this was not a problem until into the 20th century, when there was a shifting attempt to cling onto control of the next generation, for various purposes, and thus claiming that, for some so-called reason or another, they no longer were intelligent or 'grown' enough to handle responsibilities the previous generations had always taken for granted.... a child is a prepubescent being... period... a tenager as such is most certainly NOT a child - yet there has for some time been an increasing mode of refusing to let that being grow into the adult it is striving to, and to cling into that past of irresponsibility and dependency which allows control by the older generations.... and so long as parents fall into that falseness, they will always have that emotional tagging of not wanting 'to let go', believing that, somehow, further controling is to 'their' benefit instead of recognising it is merely a power play extention of themselves....

(Edited by robert malcom on 8/28, 2:11pm)

Post 6

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 2:24pm

Hi, Ryan.

You said,

"I always resented this attitude in my parents when I was younger, specifically how bad choices I made seemed to effect their evaluation of how they did as parents.

That actually isn't what I was going for when I made my statement. Perhaps you thought I meant "heartbroken" the way people do when what they really mean is "ashamed"...ashamed that their child is gay, or that their child isn't a star athlete, or if the the child is an avowed atheist, or some other such nonsense. I actually mean heartbroken as in a broken heart. If my son became a gang member, or a heroin addict, this would break my heart. I find it impossible to believe that other parents wouldn't feel the same away. These are the kind of examples I mean...would your heart not be broken if your child was throwing his life away with crime, or drugs?

You also said,

I will encourage them to read Rand and that I hope to instill in them the metaphysical/epistemological foundation they need to derive their own ethical, political and esthetical beliefs. Obviously, I will have to set some ethical boundaries early on in their lives.

I apologize that this didn't come across well in my previous post, but the above paragraph is EXACTLY what I have been doing with my child for the past few years. I allow him a tremendous amount of freedom (always have) but I have also demanded that he operate from an ethical base. It's about the only thing I demanded of him, and it's worked well. I have always had zero interest in "making him in my likeness"---I have always wanted him to be better. And he is. He's a lot more confident, and he's a better thinker. He is already a more impressive person right now than I am. That was a goal of my parenting, and I have already succeeded there.

When I feel that pride I mentioned, it's because he has made a decision that is independent of my "influence" (opinions), but is still the right one for him. I've seen him reason through a problem. I've seen him make decisions that I would not personally have made (but that weren't harmful necessarily) and that makes me proud: watching him come into his own. Conversely, if he ultimately decided that he would be happiest as socialist liberal, I would not be "heartbroken". (Okay, maybe a tad disappointed...but that's all.)

You also said,

I always hoped that at some point, I would no longer take responsibility for the actions of my children and that I would not let their bad decisions affect me past a certain level. Do you think such an attitude is possible and/or healthy, or am I just in for a rude awakening in about sixteen years? :)

This actually touches back on an idea in the first paragraph I quoted from you, (about parents evaluating how they did as parents.)
I do believe that when kids are armed with the kind of metaphysical/epistemological foundation you spoke of, as well as the correct ethics, and a healthy sense of self esteem, they have the tools to make good decisions, and withstand social pressures better. (You cannot impart wisdom to your child. Wisdom comes with age. Period. But you can do the next best thing and give them the tools they need to think critically, and reason, and even in their immaturity, they will be able to make some good decisions when the time comes for them to think. They may not always make good decisions but they will at least have the tools to do so.) Of course, parents who don't have good qualities or values themselves are unable to teach them to their (unfortunate) children. How to do counsel your children not to give in to peer pressure when you do it yourself every day? (After college age it's not called "peer pressure" anymore; it's called "keeping up with the Joneses.")

So when I look at a kid who is really a mess, and acting out, I guess do hold the parent somewhat responsible...even if it's just acknowledging that they're clueless, too, and had nothing good to pass on to their child. It does burn me up, though to see parents who behave as though their wild, out-of control teen just appeared from outer space. If your kid is doing drugs, stealing cars, skipping school, and has an extensive juvie rap sheet before he's 17...something is wrong. If it were my kid, I'd find out what it is. (I don't believe that dragging him on a talk show so a Marine drill sergeant can bully him into behaving the way you want him to is the answer. It does not address the underlying problems.) A lot of parents disagree, though, and are content with saying, "I didn't raise you like that! Get out of my house, I disown you!" and they wash their hands of their kid.
But as far as being responsible for your kids' actions...well, no one is responsible forever for what their kids do, just as no one can blame their parents forever for everything wrong in their adult lives. I do believe that you are absolutely responsible for what you taught them (or didn't teach them). What kind of a man did you raise? Is he a serial killer? No one could hold you responsible for his actual crimes, but you wouldn't feel some responsibility for what you did or didn't do as a parent? What signs did you miss?

Your child's behavior does not just come out of nowhere. And what they experience as children does influence the kind of adult they will be. There's no escaping that. But not everyone feels comfortable taking responsibility for how their child developed. They think it's a crap shoot, literally. They say, "Hey, he could grow up to be a bum no matter what I do, who knows?" I've never felt like that, but that's just how I think.

The plan you have is an excellent one, Ryan. It's been working for me pretty well. (BTW, truly allowing your child the freedom to think has another great benefit for you, as the parent: as I said, the ethical values have to be non-negotiable, but an amazing thing happens when you are not trying to control your kid's mind, and his every taste and opinion...they find they have very little to rebel against. And the teen years aren't as scary as you think they'll be.

:-)

I hope this helps a little.

Erica
(edited to add: My post basically crossed Robert's, so nothing I've written above is in reaction to his post. But I will say that I agree wholeheartedly with this, by Robert:

properly, however, the purpose of a parent is to raise another independent being, to shift that dependent youngster into one utilizing its own independent judgments, for better or worse, according to the lights it had acquired.... the parent as teacher, if you will - not indoctrinator, as most seem to sense it, sadly, but as an enlightening one, to the extent the parent is capable of doing....

I hope that people understand this.

(Edited by Erica Schulz on 8/28, 2:30pm)

Post 7

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 2:43pm

And this is the time in his life when you actually get a first glimpse of whether or not the IDEALS you worked to instill in him when he was little (and still under your thumb) actually took hold securely and permanently. Now, when he is old enough to disagree with you, to make his own decisions, to go places on his own, to choose his own friends and activities.
And the choices he makes will either make you beam with pride.....or break your heart.

As I reread this paragraph of mine, I understand now why there is so much confusion. (I knew what I meant, but I worded it poorly.) I should have said,

And this is the time in his life when you actually get a first glimpse of whether or not the TOOLS you worked to instill in him when he was little (and still under your thumb) actually took hold securely and permanently...

By using the word "ideals", it does sound as though I shoved Objectivism down my son's throat like a religion, even though I stated later in that same post that I didn't.
(I've already explained the "heartbreak" part of it in my previous post.)

I apologize for the confusion.

Erica

Post 8

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 2:53pm

Erica:

I'll post more later when I get some time, but I just wanted to clear up one thing. I didn't infer from your original post that you were forcing Objectivism onto your son. The first part of my post was more of a reflection on my own upbringing and not a response to your post. So if I came off as criticizing your parenting methods, please accept my apology. I did not mean it in that way.

Post 9

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 4:14pm

How to Indoctrinate Your Child

I didn't expect this poll to get quite so much discussion, and have been very impressed by the comments above.

Ryan had commented, and I am sure that others agree, that to some extent most of us have resented having our parents' beliefs imposed on us. Raised by Catholics, but an outright unbeliever from age 16, I realized that I would still have to attend mass weekly until I left home. This didn't bother me too much, (not really at all, since I knew they were acting in good faith) because I had already been raised as an Objectivist in another way for all my life - my parents always upheld the primacy of existence (wishing doesn't make it so) and the objectivity of concepts (words have meanings). And my father's favorite ethical saying was always "only you can make you happy" a very Randian sentiment that he learned from the Jesuit brothers that educated him at West Catholic.

If we see Objectivism as a list of concrete precepts - support for the gold standard, opposition to the psychological appropriateness of having a woman president, a suspicion of Beethoven, Rock music, and the Impressionist painters, then for us, Objectivism is a faith, and our children would be absolutely right in resenting it.

But Objectivism is primarily a method. Children will be raised as Objectivists if they are raised to respect reality and the rights of themselves and others, to think for themselves and never to accept "because I said so" as a primary.

Never lie to children. Define your terms, and always explain your reasons when questioned. Answer questions to the best of your ability, and admit when you aren't sure about something yourself. Distinguish between your preferences and your opinions and what you know to be objective fact. Teach your children not what to think, but how to be independent thinkers. They'll make plenty of mistakes (didn't you?) and they'll disappoint you with their tastes and choices in hundreds of things, just like the differences in taste on this website. Raising your child to be an Objectivist doesn't require imparting even one single belief, except perhaps nurturing the natural belief that life is worth living and that happiness is possible. The rest will follow from reason and good example.

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/28, 8:38pm)

Post 10

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 7:21pm

except perhaps the belief that life is worth living and that happiness is possible.

'life is worth living' is a belief?????? 'happiness is possible' is just a belief????? these do not come from reason???? from objective assessment of what is??

Post 11

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 7:53pm

I can't speak for others, Robert. Rand called it the benevolent universe premise. I have always taken the Objectivist ethics to be premised upon "If you wish to live, then..." It is not my place to tell people that they must wish to live, but I certainly would see no point in arguing anyone (other than perhaps a Daumer type) out of wanting to live either.

I will take your surprise at this part of my post as tacit approval of the rest of what I've said. It was nice to be able to sanction you earlier.

Ted Keer

PS Take a look at my nephew's smile in my avatar if it is not too dark to see. This pic was taken at 45 days of age.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/28, 7:55pm)

Post 12

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:30pm

Like Ryan, I too have a young son (11 days old to be exact). As a matter of fact, I would normally be in bed now, but he is restless so here I am. I agree with what Ryan said, as well as Erica, Ted, and Robert. I was raised Christian, but I wouldn't say my parents forced it down my throat. They told me about God and took me to church, but that was pretty much it. If there were an objectivist version of church, I would bring my children, and I will certainly tell them about my beliefs, so I guess you could say it is not really my parents methods that I disagree with, just their particular beliefs, but I bear no ill will towards them for it. On a semi-related topic, my wife and I chose not to circumcise our son. I myself am circumcised, and although I do not approve of the procedure, I bear no ill will here either, as I believe it was done out of ignorance not malevolence.

Ted, I particularly liked post 9, and sanctioned you for it.

Post 13

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:39pm

I'm curious of the people who say that they disagree with their spouses over Rand - and presuming this is relevant in the raising of your children - do you find that raising your children as free thinkers, as opposed to raising them to believe in any specific concrete doctrines is difficult? For example, I could possibly imagine myself marrying a practicing Catholic, Jew, Buddhist or perhaps a Hindu, (just not a leftist or a m*slim, although those Opus cartoons have me thinking...) so long as they understood that while I would respect their desires to raise the child within the faith, I would insist that my views would be made clear to the children. Like Christopher Hitchens who is raising his daughter culturally
as a Jew, I wouldn't belittle the faith, but I would raise the children to think for themselves.

Are there people who have mixed marriages who simply can't come to this accommodation with their spouses? I'll understand if people prefer to keep quiet or forward their answers through other posters anonymously.

Ted

Post 14

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 8:53pm

Erica:

After a couple of days mulling it over, I realize that I too didn't really communicate what I wanted to communicate. There were two main points I was trying to bring up:

How one expresses his feelings of disappointment in the actions of his children.
How one lets the actions of his children affect his feelings

The first point is where I really botched things, especially since I equated your statement with how I viewed my parents' actions, which I didn't mean to do. It would probably help to give a little context, which I'll try to do without getting into an online psychiatry session :)

My reaction to your statement was mainly due to the fact that growing up, I always felt my parents' ultimate happiness was dependent on my acceptance of their beliefs. I'm not talking about just feelings of disappointment, but sense of life/self-worth issues. I still believe this dependence exists, but having read Rand, I am able to see the altruism in me worrying about the situation or modifying my belief system/behavior to smooth things over.

So this context brings me to the second point and my desire to, at some point, shift the responsibility of my children's actions away from me and onto them. This attitude is not to escape judgment for any mistakes I will make as a parent, but the desire not to beat myself up over something that at some point, is no longer under my control. I also understand that I will always have feelings of disappointment when my children do something I disagree with, no matter what their age. But I hope that they always see a positive sense of life within me, regardless of any missteps they may take, no matter how severe the misstep.

Like I hinted before, I realize that I am open to criticisms of being completely naive here, and won't really understand the emotions involved with parenting until the first time my son does something that really disappoints me.

And once again, I apologize if my post came off as a criticism towards you. I did not intend it that way and I think we likely agree with each other once the communication is clear.

P.S. On a serious note, what I'm really worried about is my ability to indoctrinate my son to be a Philadelphia Eagles fan out here in Brett Favre/Packer country. I already have to compete against my wife, in-laws and every other cheese-head around here. Seeing him become a Packers fan...now that would be heart-breaking :)

Post 15

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 7:28am

Maybe he'll grow up and be wise enough to abhore the whole silliness of those stupid games.....

Post 16

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 9:36am

Ryan,

Thanks for your last post. And you're right; we are in agreement about these things.

About what you mentioned concerning a parent's expression of disappointment, and how they should feel about it:

This is just speculation on my part; even I don't have the experience of being truly disappointed in my son's actions as of yet. (He is an honor student, he's well-behaved, and he has interests in activities that I have no issue with.) The minor things that have come up over the years were, for the most part, carefully handled by me...because I had done alot of thinking about it beforehand, just as you're doing now. And, like you, a lot of what influenced what I did had to do with my own experiences with my parents, who did not handle things so smoothly with me. I grew up always believing I was a terrible disappointment to both my parents. To this day, I have a very distant relationship with each of them.

"I love you" and "I'm proud of you" were not bandied about freely in our home. A lot of hurtful, and unhelpful criticism was, though. If my parents had any love for me at all, they weren't very good at showing it. Some people just have a hard time with that. (Why they become parents, I have no idea.) As an adult, I've come to understand this, so I don't hate them for it. But children cannot understand this when it's happening, they just think that "Daddy and Mommy hate me." I'm sure I don't have to tell you what kind of damage this can do to your child...damage that is very difficult to undo later in life. Remember this, Ryan: the most important thing you can help your child achieve is a healthy, rational sense of self-esteem. It is the single greatest piece of armor you can give him, and it is also something that is damned hard to try to rebuild in adulthood.

So having said all that, my way of handling any disappointments with my child pretty much involved doing the opposite of what my parents would have done. I didn't start yelling, or hurl personal insults (you wouldn't believe some of the names my mother called me when she was angry about something.) My son and I talked about the situation, and I bent over backwards to let him know that I loved him, and that I wanted to understand why he felt had to do whatever he did that I didn't approve of. I found this amazingly easy to do, because I never, ever forgot what it felt like for me, at 5, or 10, or 15, to be yelled at mercilessly for making a mistake. (And my mistakes weren't exactly doozies, either, as a kid...no drugs, no promiscuity or teen pregnancy, nothing to make a parent tear their hair out. It didn't take much; little things would set my parents off.)

This actually brings me to another rule I have: People who can't remember what it's like to be kids shouldn't have them. Period. Before you go off on your kid, stop and remember what kinds of things you thought at that age. And when you talk with them, and show them demonstrably that you still love them, and that you're interested in hearing what they were thinking, you start to build a good relationship with them. That lasts into adulthood, and will be very, very helpful during the teen years when they begin to want (and need) more freedom and privileges. If they felt they could talk to you when they were younger, they will still talk to you when they're older. Not every single detail, mind you---teenagers also require some privacy---but if you've proven yourself to be a reasonable parent who respects and listens to them, they will want you to weigh in on the really important things. And even some of the silly ones. (My son may not like me fussing with his appearance in public, but he does still always ask my opinion on whether or not he should shave his head, or the whiskers on his face :-)

As for how you should feel about a disappointment in your child's actions...well, rationally I believe there has to be a point where you have to let yourself off the hook. I'm just not sure where it is ;-) No, seriously, I believe it has to happen when they become adults, certainly, though there's no magic age. (You aren't any smarter at on your 18th birthday than you were the day before, no matter what the law says.) Maybe a good marker is: as long as they live under your roof. I say that because you should be involved enough to know where your child's head is at when he's still living with you. (And yes, you can absolutely take this to mean that I will NOT be having a 30-year-old living in my basement. Screw that!) Once he is on his own, you can't possibly know everything that goes on in his life. But this is just a guess. I have no definite answer. I may have 15 more years of experience as a parent, but hey, I'm still figuring it out, too. :-D

I hope some of this helps, too.

Oh, and this:

Regarding the Packers/Eagles thing:

I am a lifelong Chicago Cubs fan. Naturally, I raised my son to be one as well. (I can't tell you how many miniature Cubs outfits I got for my son; I have so many adorable pictures of my little toddler Cub...sigh...)
But in a fit of what I've decided to assume was utter defiance and a need to exert his own independence, my traitorous little offspring decided one day, out of the blue, to become a Chicago White Sox fan. (If you know anything about Chicago, you know Sox fans and Cub fans hate each other.) And this was years ago, at about age 8 or 9!
It's actually worked out okay...we now have something absolutely harmless to tease each other about, and we visit both ball parks, each dressed in our respective Cubs and Sox battle gear. (We usually elicit a few chuckles from others because people can see we're clearly mother and son on opposite sides of the war.) Amazingly, his switch in loyalties actually set up many more bonding opportunities for us, not less.

The point I wanted to make, though, is this: he made the switch out of, as I mentioned, a need to be his own man, even at that age. (I have always been a single parent, so the only baseball team to rebel against was Mom's.)
Your son may decide to shock both you and your wife and start rooting for (gasp) the Cowboys, or the Giants, or the Bears...just to be independent of both of you. (And may I just say, I hope he does choose the Eagles, for your sake, or anyone else besides the Packers, because we really, really hate the Packers down here in Chicago. :-)

Erica

Post 17

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 10:15am

Robert , "a child is a pre-pubesent being ...period" What about their itellectual and emotional maturity ? It takes me a little longer to explain some things than others to my 7 and 8 year old children then it does my husband.

Ted , that last paragraph in post 9 says it all. I have ( from 4 years of age) had my children enrolled in a Waldorf education ,and plan to continue this school until each reaches 11 years of age, with their home the foundation for empistemological and metaphysical contemplation.

Terrific posts Erica :)

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 8/30, 11:19am)

Post 18

Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 11:29am