About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 40

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, much much worse. Jeff, please ask yourself ,who best, can answer to Ayn Rand's criteria.

"Will he protect freedom or destroy the last of it? Will he accelerate, delay or stop the march toward statism?"

Giulinia's dismissal of the 1st and 2nd, the Constitution, eminent domain, habeus corpus. He doesn't give a damn he's a lawyer and loopholes are his life.

"In the age of moral collapse,like the present, men who seek power for power's sake rise to leadership everywhere on earth and destroy one country after another."

Everything he has taken credit for has placed him in this race. Everything he was responsible for would have landed him in retirement or actually working for those millions that Bracewell and Giuliani pay him.

"Even his antagonists admit it with grudging respect, He is seeking not to rule, but to liberate a country."

Giuliani's former collegues do not believe he has anything but power on his mind , he has screwed too many over in his quest for power. He lied and pulled out pre-election support from people who supported him based on what he was telling them, in public . You notice he asks himself questions and then answer "Yeah ,of course there ought to be this or that........" as if someone is answering a question.He is a charlatan.
 He is not Goldwater,

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 10/20, 7:46pm)


Post 41

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 8:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Apparently, you think that anyone who doesn't believe as you do is unreachable, beyond rational persuasion, because what you believe is supposedly self evident. But these matters are not self evident, unless you arbitarily restrict the definition of "evidence" to war propaganda issued by the White House." Mark Humphrey


I was discussing only the question of whether or not those who presently rule Iran are Persian (yes), fanatical (yes), and thugs (certainly).

None of this is self-evident. But it should be obvious to anyone who has been paying attention to the actions taking place in Iran and those who have taken them for the past 28 years.

That has nothing whatever to do with whether Bush, Rice, et al are good or bad. The source of that information is not war propaganda by the Bush administration, nor any other. My conclusion is based on newspaper and personal accounts of the past 28 years, TV footage, etc.

Even the most rabid Democrats don't dispute the facts that lead inescapably to the conclusion that the rulers of Iran are (a) Persian, (b) fanatical, and (c) thugs.

I won't bother to recount those facts here; they're easily available to anyone who wasn't witness to the events as reported while they unfolded.

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 10/20, 8:29pm)


Post 42

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Humphery,
        I may have exposed my ocassional emotionalism. I find myself , at every new opportunity I have of promoting Ron Paul, having to explain that "No, the "truthers" support Paul ,not he other way around." People who are never going to even consider him for this reason alone, are many in number. It is extremely  frustrating and eats away  at the limited time I have to share his positions with people. I blew up (flew of the handle) and I'm sorry.  Gigi


Post 43

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeff, the article to which I provided the link is based on an extended interview with two formerly very highly placed CIA operatives who worked as Middle East policy experts for the National Security Council. Leveret worked closely on a daily basis with Condi Rice and Colin Powell as their expert advisor on terrorist states; Mann was the Iran expert on the NSC and directly involved in secret face-to-face negotiations with Iran for over two years, on a monthly basis. During their tenure, they repeatedly ran up against Bush administration opposition to and sabetage of momentously important concessions offered to the United States by representatives of the Iranian state.

These concessions initially included  plans for Iranian help in the war aginst the Taliban in Afghanistan, including rendering assistance to any American shot down near their borders, permitting Americans to route food supply lines to Afghanistan through Iran, and agreeing to restrain belligerant anti-American Afghan war lords, such as Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, whom they placed under house arrest. According to these two CIA people, the Iranians had intimate knowlege of Taliban strategic capabilities, which they were eager to share with the USA. At the same time, James Dobbins, special envoy, was conducting public and cordial negotiations with Iranians in Bonn, Germany, in which both sides agreed to details about the government being set up in Afghanistan.

In the meantime, as the Iraq bombing campaign commenced, Leveret, NSC advisor on terrorist states to Powell and Rice, saw offers of help extended from supposedly fanatical terrorist states: Sudan, Syria, Lybia, and Iran. For example, Shortly after 911, Iranian representatives offered Mann, on several occassions, to negotiate "unconditionally"--a primary demand long set out by the Bush people as the prerequisite to progress. The Iranians said they knew 911 was important, and hoped that by negotiating without conditions they could fundamentally alter relations with the US for the first time since 1979. But this offer was ignored by the Bush people. 

As a CIA specialist in these terrorist states, Leveritt had concluded that terrorism was employed "tactically", to gain certain objectives, rather than "fanatically", which suggests indifference to incentives. (Incidentally, this distinction does not imply moral neutrality about the evil of murdering innocent people.) So he suggested to Powell that a new list of terrorist states be created, in which states that cooperated with the US, specifically by expelling their terrorist groups and getting rid of weapons of mass destruction, would be taken off the sponsors of terrorism list and engage in mutual cooperation. Powell took this idea to the White House, which immediately shot it down.

Four weeks into the invasion of Iraq, the Iranians made a dramatic offer: "decisive action" against all terrorists in Iran, an end for support of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, a promise to end its nuclear program, and an agreement to recognize Israel. As Mann (approximately) expressed it, this was momentous, gigantic, unprecedented. Immediately, the White House communicated that it would ignore the offer, and lodged a protest against the Swiss Ambassador for "meddling". (The US has no US Ambassador to Iran, so proposals and entreaties are routinely made through Switzerland.).

The article contains much more distrubing information about the Bush mindset, which from the beginning has sought war in the Middle East. Aside from the obvious fact that much in the culture of their region is unfriendly to individual liberty and reason, arguments that Iranian Persians, Palestinians, and Arabs are all just fanatical non-human beings, immune to any form of rational persuasion, indifferent to realism, utterly and hopelessly beyond the reach of incentives, is non-sense. More particularly, it is a pack of lies.

Of course,  propaganda on behalf of non-defensive wars--like all other statist propaganda--derives power from the willingness of many people to accept incredible claims uncritically. This uncritical acceptance takes the form of refusal to look at inconvenient or discomforting facts.  


Post 44

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Gigi, thanks and forget it. I recommend you read David Griffin's book.

Post 45

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Gigi,

Giulinia's dismissal of the 1st and 2nd, the Constitution, eminent domain, habeus corpus.


That's an extensive list of serious charges. It would be helpful to have some quotes and/or references to back them up. But since it's so long and that could take some time, I propose we narrow the list.

I'm vaguely familiar with Guiliani's views on gun control, but I don't recall seeing anything suggesting he was against free speech, or freedom of the press, or the free exercise of religion.

Have you read something that you can share which would tend to show that?

U.S. Constitution

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


But maybe you were referring to one of the other clauses?
(Edited by Jeff Perren on 10/21, 2:33pm)


Post 46

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeff,

For the record, I am not of the opinion that Rand would ever be willing to overlook Guliani's role in the Michael Milken case.

Ed


Post 47

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeff,
What is your favorite news source ? I am sincerely curious.
To make my life easier, I'm going to ask you to google Giuliani and the 1st amendment.
Ed,
Good points in your posts.
I have two young children that I must attend.
 Goodnight guys,
 Gigi


Post 48

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Jeff,
What is your favorite news source ? I am sincerely curious." Gigi


I couldn't name a favorite; I'm not fond of newspapers these days. But I regularly read stories in/on:

The New York Times
CNN
Chicago Sun-Times
Washington Post

and several UK papers, such as,

Daily Telegraph
The Guardian
Financial Times

and a smattering of others here and there.

On TV, I watch the Lehrer News Hour often, but no others (apart from weather and local stuff on the local CBS channel).

I check in on various blogs here and there, across the political spectrum.

Post 49

Monday, October 22, 2007 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kurt, the reason I did not respond to your idea of planting landmines along  the expanse of those borders is because no General has thought that an effective solution.

Do you know the military reason why?  I actually would like to know.  I have a suspicion that the actual reason is political, that thanks to the sainted Princess Dianna, for example, mines = "bad" without any actual reference to how they are used.


Post 50

Monday, October 22, 2007 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks Jeff,
 I read those as well, except the sun-times, the daily telegraph and the financial times.The
Guardian is great. I like the Christian Science monitor. A.P. and U.P.S. releases. Not my local paper much except
 for sundays.
Hi Kurt,
Yes, dimplomatic reason for sure. But also the expanse and topography. I imagine that we can not expect to
cover borders in mines, using only our troops and the alternative would be hell-a risky ,what with the corruption already overwhelming our soldiers. (smuggling and bribes involving the Iraqis etc.)
                         Gigi

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 10/22, 8:08am)


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


User ID Password or create a free account.