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Post 20

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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What is wrong with my idea of mining the border of Iran and Iraq?  You never gave me answer to that in another thread.

As to the terrorists, realize that they cannot operate effectively without state sponsorship.  If there were no state sponsors then yes it would be a criminal issue- for example, the Oklahoma bombing was a criminal issue, even though yes it was a "terrorist" act.  However, with state funding, what would be criminals become much, much more dangerous.  The only way they can be stopped is by eliminating the state that supports them.  There is no other way!

That is not to say that we should not be wary of loss of our rights, because it turns out that for example, in Germany, there was a wholesale violation of rights as we know them in the US (and for that matter, my guess is despite crying we are doing this, they STILL have far fewer rights than we do in the US) during the red terror period.  These gangs were supported by the KGB and Soviet state, and were not eliminated until that state dissolved!

Then I also ask, what parts of say, the Patriot Act, are actually bad?  Some are, some are NOT.  YES they should monitor calls to foreign, suspect countries, and YES non-citizens should be subject to greater scruitny - we don't have to be "equal" when we know where the bad guys are most likely to be!

So when you cry about rights being violated, tell me what ones they are and how they impact me, and lets fight those specific issues as being non-related and wrong.  Lets not undermine the very reasonable effort to eliminate these countries that sponsor and harbor terror, or hog tie our efforts to protect innocents on the alter of giving rights to terrorists.


Post 21

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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What I am refering to Newberry, is the rousting of artists displaying their work on the sidewalk as has been done all over Europe and in large metropolitan cities in the US for 10's of years. You can catch this in "Giuliani Time". And please point out where, in any of my posts, I am guilty of "Fying of the handle " My last sentance in post 17 was directed at Giuliani. Where are all of these times I've "flown of the handle and been wrong ."? If you believe the critiquing of art should be left in the hands of politician, then I guess I was wrong about you. And I am sorry.

Kurt, the reason I did not respond to your idea of planting landmines along  the expanse of those borders is because no General has thought that an effective solution.We need to be working on our defense of America. Look at what Putin and Ahmadinejad are doing and discussing. That is what scares me. We are over there frittering away trillions of dollars while Russia has been busy as bees.

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 10/19, 10:06am)


Post 22

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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Oh Gigi,

You didn't take me literally. I was literally curious the percentage in which you find yourself wrong about anything.

Why would you assume that I think "artists" should be able sell their work on the sidewalk without a license, overhead, responsibility, accountability, etc. What does the store front owner do, in the one of the highest rental districts in the world, with a vagabond setting up shop in front of his plate glass window?

In Europe, which I lived in different areas for over 15 years, artists are licensed like every other street seller.

Michael

Post 23

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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You support licensing, Michael?

Post 24

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

The bigger issue is not about licensing, its about the right of private property does not give anyone the right to public property.

Whoever "owns" public property is responsible to take care of it.

In NY there are plenty of street vendors that don't disrupt the walking traffic, there are tons of artists selling their work in Parks--and when you buy from them you know who they are.

But you may think everyone has a right to live and sell on the public street. Think about the fraud and tainted hotdogs!!!

hahahaha,

Michael

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Post 25

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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           I guess I would say I'm wrong about 15 % of the time. Maybe more , but I do my very best to check my premises and this forum has been a great help in that regard. I don't think "artists" have the right to plop themselves down on private property or public property blocking the sidewalk and that was not my contention. Strong arm fear tactics (Giuliani had gone a little too far, so said his ex-Chief of Police Bratton) and making ones self judge and jury about what is appropriate for the masses, as far as the federally funded (which I think is BS) showing of art is concerned ,was my issue. "When you buy from them you know who they are." I'm more of a free-market type I'spose, and feel myself quite capable of taking care of my interests. As far as living on public streets, of course not. I am not saying he was a huge disaster as a mayor, I'm saying he did not seem to know when to pull up. Which is a trait I'm not comfortable with as it has the faint aroma of a potential dictator.

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Post 26

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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On Iran's Nuclear Weapons

"What is your definition of "defending America" ? To me, it means much more than pre-emptively striking another country because they are developing a nuclear weapon. We possess 2000 with which we can dispose of a few when we have declared war.
...
"I am also very sorry that it would appear that this adhearance to this mindset, that we must make them pay or teach them a lesson or strike them before they strike (with no bomb in sight)(see a bomb , Declare War)..." Gigi


If I've misinterpreted your view of Iran, I'm pleased to hear it. Use of phrases like "pre-emptively striking another country because they are developing a nuclear weapon" suggests to me that you view Iran as "just another country peacefully pursuing nuclear weapons as a legitimate defensive deterrent against possible unjust aggressors, such as the U.S."

But I acknowledge, my interpretation is a stretch. That's why I softened it by hedging with phrases like "write as if." Because I wasn't sure.

As to our own stockpile, which admittedly far exceeds what Iran could develop in the next 20 years, if ever, are you proposing the U.S. government should wait until Iran actually has a nuclear weapon, then we exchange blows?

And, apart from the nuclear weapons issue, should we ignore the past 28 years of aggression against the U.S. and its allies - much of it sponsored by Iran?

Damn right we should "make them pay." Big time. That's called justice.

On the ISG>

On the issue of the Iraq Study Group, you assert a false alternative. I've never attended any of their meetings nor even read much of the report, but I claim to have a fair knowledge of what is going on there. (And many others know a great deal more who have paid no attention to that committee either.) Are you saying that's the only way, or the best way, to become knowledgeable about what is going on in the Middle East?

On Uniting Jihadists

If we are in fact uniting jihadists, a highly dubious assertion, I suspect that is probably a very good thing. One neck for one axe. Chop off the heads and the body will fall.

But the proposition is highly questionable in any case. The jihadists are united primarily by their belief in the legitimacy and importance of jihad, as based on their interpretation of writings in the Quran and elsewhere. The U.S. is no doubt a figurehead of Satan to such people, but they are committed to violence even against the native populations in the Middle East. See the history and current events of Lebanon, Iran, Afghanistan, Palestine, and elsewhere.

Do I care if they kill each other? Not much. But they weren't willing to leave it at that. I don't believe in Wilsonian democracy, but I'm a fan of Jacksonian. Don't mess with me or mine and we'll get along fine. Otherwise, duck.

Do you think it's legitimate for the jihadists, whether as part of al Qaeda or the Iran-backed Mahdi army, or any other sect, to shoot at U.S. soldiers simply because those soldiers are in Iraq? Are you implying that they are protecting the Iraqis from us? I don't think this is your view, so please tell me why the U.S. should not respond to them.

As for whether the U.S. should be there in the first place, this would take us far afield. I would not have chosen Iraq as a first target, though the U.S. committed no immoral act in deposing Saddam's regime and it could make a very good staging ground for an invasion of Iran.

In any case, we're there now. Pulling out before winning would be disastrous.

So, once again I ask a question you didn't answer: What would Iran have to do, beyond what it has done the past 28 years, for you to believe that military action against Iran is called for?


On Listening to Generals and Putin

Finally, on "our willful ignoring of our Generals and Admirals"... Opinions among them differ. Can you be specific?

I gather Bush listened too well to some of them at the beginning. Listening to General Petraeus seems to have paid off pretty well so far.

Are you saying we should be listening to (and talking with) Putin as well or instead? What could he have to say that would be of value? It would be better if we did a little more sabre rattling in his direction, too.



Post 27

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Gigi,

I loved your last post...I gave it the sanction...and gotta run several things to do.

M

Post 28

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 3:52pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Newberry, I really enjoy your art. My husband is an artist as well, and he concurs.

Hi Jeff, It's pumpkin carving time and such..I'll get back to all our topics, but a quick observation is that Patraeus
recommended a draw down with a focus on transition tasks , but ultimately a withdraw.

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 10/19, 3:52pm)


Post 29

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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"[A] quick observation is that Patraeus
recommended a draw down with a focus on transition tasks , but ultimately a withdraw." Gigi


Six months from now. And, though I don't have the figures in front of me, I seem to recall it was a draw down to levels prior to the surge, leaving still about 110,000 in the area. I read nowhere that he favored complete withdrawal from Iraq anytime soon. Maybe in 6 months, I'll agree with him. We'll have to see.

In any case, this is a side issue.

The main question is this: Do you favor U.S. military action in the Middle East - against al Qaeda, Iran, Syria, (possibly) Saudi Arabia - or anyone else, anywhere?

So far, your answer seems to be akin to Ed's. Hire private hit men to deal with jihadists one by one. But I don't want to put words in your mouth. (Honestly!)

Jeff

P.S. By all means, take however much time you wish to respond and at whatever length you wish.

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Post 30

Friday, October 19, 2007 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Dean said:
With the increased productivity and pleasures from free market capitalism, will be even more kick butt and nobody will want to mess with us. And if they did mess with us, we'd have even more incredible resources to erase them from the future.
I disagree.  Sure, we might have even more incredible resources due to the free market.  But the assumption here is that having these resources would somehow make people not want to mess with us.  And as counter-evidence, look at all those people out there who mess with us now even though we already have the resources to crush them.

Power is only half of the equation.  The other fundamental component is the will to act.  The US has immense power, but it's obvious to everyone that we lack sufficient will.  Sure, we might have the guts to start a war, like in Iraq, but not enough to finish it.  We have to make excuses, like we need to liberate the Iraqis.  And we avoid civilian casualties.  And we don't want to mess with gunman shooting from mosques, since we don't want to offend their religion.  And even that took 10 years of shooting at our aircraft.

The will to act comes from moral confidence.  Not only does this country not have it, but we've got the opposite.  We have those people who insist that America is the evil one, that all of the violence of the world is our fault, that we get what we deserve, and that's it's fundamentally immoral to even consider self-defense.

Power is not the issue, and it's a mistake to believe that the problems will go away if we simply amass more power.  The will to act is the issue.  It dominates our foreign policy, and how countries interact with us.  The lack of moral confidence invites violence.  People know they can win any argument by resorting to violence because the US is incapable of standing up for itself, at least for very long.  If any two-bit country in the world displayed the lack of moral confidence that the US does, it would be overrun by its enemies in no time.  The overwhelming power we have, coupled with the off chance that desperation might force us to act, to generate that will to act, is what keeps us relatively safe for now.

Which candidate is likely to continue to promote the view that the US is a paper tiger?  Absolutely, Ron Paul.  Which candidate has a chance of conveying to the world that we have the moral confidence to act?  Maybe, hopefully, Guiliani.  He'll have a hard time of it, that's for sure, especially given how much support there is for the moral cowardice position.  But Ron Paul would be a step in the other direction.  He'd make moral cowardice the official US policy (naturally, he'd name it something else, like "non-interventionism").

I'm not saying you have to make a decision on a candidate by this measure alone.  But if you want to deter people from messing with us, don't make the mistake that more wealth or power will somehow fix the problem.  That is not and hasn't been the issue for quite some time.


Post 31

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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Joseph,
I disagree that it is "moral cowardice " to promote facts and Prepare for a declaration of war.
Jeff,
Yes, I believe "premptive measures" with no declaration of war, has been "moral cowardice". The American public can handle the truth, as to why we are in Iraq, but it is difficult when you have been "fooled once" as they say. Iran is becoming , with their persual of the bomb, a much more lethal threat. Justice, true justice, in my opinion, has to do with disclosure and justification. We can sell justification easily on a foundation of truth.
 What I would propose is withdrawal and (simaltaneously) : Prepare (this time) for war, snactions against any country that aids Iran, withdrawal of all monies with any coporation that does business with Iran, and proceed as necessary, with a declaration of war. Iraq study group: It is a far better alternative then to choose Norman and by association John Podhoretz to educate you on policy and foreign relations in the ME. You've got a 24hr non-objective "news" blog rather then hearing from the CIA and the NIE etc.?
I absolutely don't believe Al Qaeda and the Mahdi army are protecting Iraqis, I believe their paying Iraqis though.
Yes, our soldiers are like ducks in a shooting gallery. Pull em' out, Declare war where there is war to declare. I, to, would not have chosen Iraq ,though the deposing of Saddam was legitimate, except at the end of 6 years it looks like crap because of this administrations penchant for BS.
People Giuliani should consider listening to : General Patraeus, Admiral William Fallon, General Pace , Brigadier General Michael Walsh, Admiral Mullen to name but a few. Fallon is forcing Patraeus manhood to the surface : )

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 10/20, 8:21am)


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Post 32

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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I voted for Ron Paul.

Dr. Paul is not the ideal spokesman against foreign military adventuring--in the Middle East and elsewhere--because his religious outlook tends to encourage his adherence to ideas that at times appear "rationalistic", as Bob Bidinotto expresses it. At times, Dr. Paul does come across as one who adheres to ideas based in part on tradition and faith. But he's far more thoughtful and honest in his attempts to make sense of ideas, and in his loyalty to reason, than any of the other candidates.

A reasoned approach to making sense of today's foreign policy crises must take account of all facts that bear on the issue. But even otherwise reasonable and reflective people who post on this site, people who authentically want to uphold and defend the good, seem to, at times, disregard facts that threaten their view of the world. I refer, as always, to disturbing facts about the official story about the mass murders of 911--stubborn facts that have been carefully identified and analyzed in David Griffin's Debunking 911 Debunking. The typical reaction to the preceding sentence by war supporters is outrage, anger, and even hatred. But the facts are there for anyone with the courage to see. If what I am writing about this is true, is not the refusal to give these facts an honest reading itself a form of rationalism?

Another fact that war supporters seem to cast out of consciousness is the growing risk of mass killings of innocent Americans by Islamic terrorists using biological or nuclear weapons. The biological weapons are avaliable to these people right now, according to an article published in a US Army journal. The dangers of suitcase nukes or hazardous radioactive materials are well known. In short, it appears that terrorists motivated by twisted ideological hatred and the desire for revenge (which our foreign military adventuring has whipped up) have both the motive and the means to kill many Americans. Bombing Iran won't protect us from this growing danger, but it will increase the likelihood of a vicious retaliation through non-state paramilitary action. War supporters don't have much to say about this point. They'd prefer to believe that American "pre-emptive wars" uphold the good and protect Americans. They assume the United States is safe from calamity, protected by two oceans and our vast military machine. But this assumption is a fallacy.
  
If one assumes that Iran is in fact actively seeking to arm itself with a nuclear weapon, one ought to wonder if our long-standing policy of invading and bullying small states has encouraged this quest. Clearly, states like North Korea or India or Pakistan that have nukes don't get invaded. Continuing, if one assumes that Iran will in a few years acquire a few nuclear weapons, would Iran then pose a serious threat to the security of Americans in the United States? It's pretty obvious that Iran would pose no more threat to Americans at home than does North Korea; a nuke launched against territorial United States would trigger an immediate American response that would obliterate the population--and a good share of the ruling class--of the belligerant state.

What if the Iranian state armed Islamic terrorists with nukes? That's possibile, and all the more reason to withdraw from the Middle East today, and concentrate on our own civil defense. For our violent meddling adds fuel to the fires of hatred among angry Muslims, yet does nothing to protect Americans. For there are many avenues by which terrorists can acquire terrible weapons with which to murder innocent American citizens. The notion that bombing Iran with tactical nuclear weapons, thereby delaying their pursuit of nukes while murdering large numbers of innocent Iranians, will insulate Americans from retaliation, sooner or later, is just nonsense.

My argument is not motivated by cowardice. It simply acknowleges that individual rights are real, and that a policy that consistently upholds rights is the best--ultimately, the only--route to securing our safety and happiness. For Americans, such a policy includes freeing energy producers to profit by repealing taxes and punitive environmental regulations, and opening up federal lands and offshore oil and gas deposits to development, which in a short time would bankrupt socialist oil-states and render helpless the thugs who control them. Such a policy includes withdrawing our military from around the globe, to reduce the injustice of the tax burden on Americans, to spare them the unnecessary risks imposed on them by military adventuring, and to respect to rights of foreign innocents. Finally, such a policy would include reaching out to the world through trade and enterprise, while declaring our neutrality with respect to all foreign quarrels that fall short of a direct attack on the USA.


Post 33

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Humphreys,
 You know Ron Paul DOES NOT support your conclusion of 9/11 and that you do him and his campaign a horrible diservice if you allow people to believe he does. You and your fellow "truthers" are promoting a lie when you put Ron Paul in your corner agaignst his will  (just cuz you luv him)!!

You know he does not share your beliefs concerning 9/11 ,yet you come on this thread talking about it as if he hold this "truther"  position. That is dishonest damnit ! DO NOT put words and YOUR beliefs , mentally, as word balloons coming out of his mouth !

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 10/20, 3:43pm)


Post 34

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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This article refutes the notion that Iran is essentially and unalterably a nation of Persian fanatical thugs, with whom the Bush administration has tried and failed to engage in serious negotiations: http://www.esquire.com/features/iranbriefing1107

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Post 35

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
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No country is "unalterable." But the fact is that Iran is presently ruled by "Persian fanatical thugs" and no article could prove otherwise, since it's so obviously true. The past 28 years has shown that to be the case and George Bush's behavior, whether good or bad, has nothing to do with the case.

Anyone who believes otherwise is unreachable, since the only way to rationally persuade someone of the assertion is through facts. Those facts have been unavoidably available to anyone for the past 28 years. Anyone who has bothered to investigate an alternative explanation for the events of 9/11 is almost certainly aware of them.

There may be valid, rational debate about what the U.S. should or should not do in light of those facts, but the conclusion from them that Iran is indeed ruled by fanatical Persian thugs is not.



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Post 36

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand wouldn't vote for Guliani (nor would she have "nice things" to say about GWB's policies & procedures).

I'm just sayin' ...

;-)

Ed


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Post 37

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,
    I think the points you make in post #32 are excellent and seem to reflect very closely the views held by Ron Paul (excepting 9/11 speculation).  I completely agree with your analysis.  I see Dr Paul's approach as something akin to Bruce Lee's demonstration to an aggressive thug in the movie Enter the Dragon of the "art of fighting without fighting". 

   Is our national self-esteem so fragile that armed force and agression has become a necessity in order to save face or to avoid appearing weak and cowardly?  Drum beaters say it's all in the name of national security, but Ron Paul is positing a principled legitimate alternative that is more likely to actually lead to real security for us.    


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Post 38

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Are you channeling, or do you have some substantial reasons for thinking so?

Guiliani is pro-right of abortion, moderately pro-free market, substantially pro-American defense.

I don't like him (I haven't liked any politician since Madison), but he seems to have many positions she would find, on the whole, far preferable to any of the other leading Republican candidates, while lacking many of their flaws.

And she would certainly want him to win against Clinton.

So, what do you suppose would hold her back?

Ayn Rand on Goldwater

From "A Suggestion," The Objectivist Newsletter, October 1963:

In today's state of political confusion and contradictions, it is difficult to endorse any candidate with any degree of certainty. All one can say is that it appears, at present, that Senator Goldwater may become very much worth supporting, particularly in view of his recent stand on Cuba and the nuclear test treaty -- and most particularly because he seems to be our last chance to preserve two-party government.

If, between now and nomination or election time, Senator Goldwater should change his stand, or adopt some major form of "me-too'ing" compromise, or tie his candidacy to some doctrine of a mystical nature -- we will, of course, be free not to vote for him. At present, he is the best candidate in the field.

From "How to Judge a Political Candidate" The Objectivist Newsletter, March 1964:

If a candidate evades, equivocates and hides his stand under a junk-heap of random concretes, we must add up those concretes and judge him accordingly. If his stand is mixed, we must evaluate it by asking: Will he protect freedom or destroy the last of it? Will he accelerate, delay or stop the march toward statism?

By this standard, one can see why Barry Goldwater is the best candidate in the field today. [...]

In an age of moral collapse, like the present, men who seek power for power's sake rise to leadership everywhere on earth and destroy one country after another. Barry Goldwater is singularly devoid of power lust. Even his antagonists admit it with grudging respect. He is seeking, not to rule, but to liberate a country.

In a world ravaged by dictatorships, can we afford to pass up a candidate of that kind?"


Is Guiliani that much worse than Goldwater?


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Post 39

Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff, I could not clearly understand your comment.

Apparently, you think that anyone who doesn't believe as you do is unreachable, beyond rational persuasion, because what you believe is supposedly self evident. But these matters are not self evident, unless you arbitarily restrict the definition of "evidence"  to war propaganda issued by the White House. Since you seem to believe that the Bush administration policies have "nothing to do" with the apparent intransigence and fanaticism of the present wielders of power in Iran, I can only suggest you read the article linked in my previous post.

Seriously Jeff, you owe it to yourself to consider all the pertinent facts in reaching your conclusions. If the article is bunk, you're smart enough to figure that out; doing so will strengthen your grasp of the subject and inspire even greater intellectual self-confidence. On the other hand, if the article has merit, you'll gain by reading it because facts are important.

I don't understand your sentence about 911. Do you think the last 28 years somehow refutes any account for that tragedy other than the one served up by the Bush people? Do you think that fundamental and blatent contradictions to the official story have been debunked by "experts", such as the staff of Popular Mechanics?

Gigi, I hesitated to respond to your tirade, because it is absurd. I wrote no statement or implication about Ron Paul's ideas concerning who was responsible for the 911 mass murders. Ron Paul voted for the war on Afghanistan, which was a mistake; and his statements about "blowback" imply support for the official story. But I don't care what Ron Paul thinks about this. Why should I?

Steven, I'm glad we agree. Like you, I suspect that some of the appeal to these "pre-emptive wars" is gauzy national "pride". I'll have to see Enter the Dragon.


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