About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 7:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't root for any statist. I may vote for one for the time being, but I have no desire to root for or sing the (lack of) praises for any of these candidates. None of them is deserving of praise.

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
You forgot to include Ron Paul. I believe he is still a major party candidate getting double digit support in some states.

You also left off the Huckster, thereby depriving many of us of the chance to creatively use invective.

And, since you asked us who we're rooting for, it seems you missed an opportunity to make a pun and advance a laudable pro-liberty candidate by leaving off Wayne Allen Root, who is running on the Libertarian Party ballot.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
As Ayn Rand said, voting for no one is still a vote. It's equivalent to "None of the above, which, I think, is how I'll cast my vote.

Of course, voting for the Libertarian Party candidate is itself equivalent to "None of the above," since he has zero chance of winning.

- Bill

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Voting for the Libertarian Party candidate sends a different message than not voting.  The former says, "Perhaps if you act more libertarian, you might get my vote next time."  The latter says, "You can probably ignore me."  If a few million people who didn't vote last time around cast a Libertarian Party ballot in a presidential election, and the number of those voters in the swing states are greater than the margin of victory in those states, politicians in both parties will start paying attention to libertarian concerns, or at least paying lip service.

Post 4

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

I see two major considerations, one short-range and one long-range:

 

(1) Short-range--The war on terror: Will Clinton or Obama prosecute the war on Islamist jihadism and do what is necessary domestically to protect us from another devastating attack on a major American city (or worse), or do we need to act in the interest of survival and vote for McCain? Does McCain’s ingrained altruism, as shown by his “humane” opposition to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, make him just as dangerous as either Democratic choice?

 

(2) Long-range—Preserving the last vestiges of freedom: If the short-range factor is mitigated by the glaring foreign policy flaws of all three candidates, it would be preferable to have a Democrat in office whose liberal proposals will be opposed by the still somewhat (marginally) pro-Capitalist Republicans.  If it’s McCain, the extent of the Congressional opposition he would receive for his predictably disastrous legislative agenda would be minimal. 

 

The pro-Democratic Peikoff perspective seems moot here.  It’s possible that defeating a groveling, sham conservative like McCain might weaken the Republican Party’s pro-religious philosophical base, but I doubt it.  It will probably strengthen that base.  If McCain loses--as seems likely--the religious right will gain more control of the party by blaming the defeat on McCain's deviation from conservative principles.  If McCain wins, he might potentially move the party away from the religionist social agenda, since his own views on issues like abortion seem less doctrinal.

 

There are numerous complicating factors to consider, obviously.  Glenn Beck argues that McCain would damage the US economy so severely that prosecuting the war would become impossible.  I don’t buy that.  Will the Democrat's promise to cut and run in Iraq give the terrorists a stronghold that will spell certain disaster?  Very probably.

 

The first issue--who will best protect the nation from Islamic terror--is the decisive one.  At this point, I don’t think we know for sure if McCain would do the better job.  Hopefully we will have sufficient evidence to act on before November

 


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 4:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It's important to state at the outset that there is no morally correct choice here. All choices are bad to a degree.

I started writing this with a desire to suggest that Obama might be the least-bad choice. But, then I went to his website: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf - there is very little to commend in his platform.

I also went to Hillary's site: http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ - At least Obama's platform is a single, readable document. Clinton's issue papers read like a technocrat's wet dream.

McCain's issues site http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/ is an odd mix of right-ish sounding ideas and left-liberal sounding ideas.

It's all so depressing :(

In the end, I'll vote for Obama if he gets the nomination. He seems like an empty vessel of platitudes and, thus, may not actually do anything - which is the best I can hope for.

Post 6

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
In the end, I'll vote for Obama if he gets the nomination. He seems like an empty vessel of platitudes and, thus, may not actually do anything - which is the best I can hope for.

What an excellent observation, Jordan.  I don't think he has an ounce of guts, either.


Post 7

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
In the end, I'll vote for Obama if he gets the nomination. He seems like an empty vessel of platitudes and, thus, may not actually do anything - which is the best I can hope for. (Jordan)

I agree with the platitudes part, but not that it means he won't do anything. He will appoint cabinet members, advisors, and a slew of other positions. They will do something, and they will do it the way government usually does.

Speaking of "platitudes" -- more accurately, egregious false advertising -- see his positions on health care and insurance at the website you linked in post 5. Here is an excerpt from his blueprint for change: "Obama’s plan will bring down the cost of health care and reduce a typical family’s premiums by as much as $2,500 per year."  How? Blank out.


Post 8

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I just finished having dinner with Richard Gleaves, and we were having fun considering how we'd vote given different possible scenarios. 

For example, if McCain chose Giuliani as his running mate, we both agreed that it would be a ticket worth voting for, just to line Giuliani up for 2012.  On the other hand, if McCain were to chose Huckabee, then we'd both stand with Mr. Bidinotto and work against the ticket.

I don't think I could bring myself to vote for Hillary, even if there was some great strategy involved in teaching the Republicans a lesson.  I might be able to cast a vote for Obama, though.   On a non-political level, I like him.  That is, I like his communication style and a sense of dignity and pride that shines through in his character.  If there were nothing more to consider than who would deliver the most uplifting State of the Union speech, I'd vote Obama hands down.

But there are other things to consider, and a lot of disappointing alternatives.  I don't know anything about the Libertarian candidate.  Who is he?  If he turns out to be an acceptable candidate, could it be worth voting libertarian in order to fulfill Mr. Bidinotto's goal? After all, if the Republicans lost due to a sizable libertarian vote, they might rethink some of their positions in the right direction. 


Post 9

Friday, February 8, 2008 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
As I recall, FDR promised, prior to first being elected, to cut back a bit on government.  Then when he got into office, he grew it as fast as he possibly could.

I worked for six years for a state Senator who, like Obama, was a noncommital nice guy who let people project their own personality upon him.  He told me several times, in kind of bemused manner, that the voters obviously thought, "He's a nice guy.  I'm a nice guy.  He MUST be just like me."  So, quite a few of them got a shock when they found out this mild-mannered Republican was pro-choice and kind of a squishy moderate -- not really like them at all.

Part of my job turned out to be cranking out what my boss described as "non-committal committal" letters to his constituents, using vague language that implied he agreed with what they said when he in fact intended to do the opposite.  I was real good at it, but I felt like taking a shower after writing a few of those bad puppies.  And this was one of the BETTER politicians at the legislature.  Most of the rest were real scumbags.  I finally had enough and quit my job there, as I became increasingly libertarian and found the cognitive dissonance with being employed by the government to be overwhelming.

I have, from bitter experience, acquired a huge distrust of all politicians and their promises, in particular politicians who hide behind platitudes and bonhomie and let you project upon them.  I don't give them the benefit of the doubt.  I assume the worst may happen.

That said, the remaining non-Paul candidates in the race have an ugly track record of actual deeds in office (or around the office, in HRC's case) clarifying what they would do if they seized power.  But don't assume Obama couldn't possibly be worse than them.  FDR happens.


Post 10

Saturday, February 9, 2008 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I bought a new USB drive (thumb drive or jump drive or memory stick) yesterday.  I went to Office Depot because I get my printing done there.  The office supplies are not as attractive as the ones at Staples, but they do a good job at printing and binding and at a lower price than Staples.  Staples employees in the copy shop do not impress me, but at Office Depot, they seem to take an interest in their work.  Anyway, I decided on a Verbatin 1 Gig for $14.95 as the most cost effective.  I usually save documents, not music or videos.  I have three or four of these now, a big 4-Gig for permanent backups and a little 500 Meg for important stuff.  I have another for transporting files.  Then, I got this one for my backpack, to carry around.  I keep it on a keychain with a little one-cell flashlight.

My backpack is bulletproof.  More on that later.


Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Saturday, February 9, 2008 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"As Ayn Rand said, voting for no one is still a vote. It's equivalent to "None of the above", which, I think, is how I'll cast my vote."
- Bill


Bill, if the two were really equal, the non-voting majority would be the most powerful party in the states.  If just a million people voted for Hillary and everyone else in the union "voted" none of the above, who would be running the 300 million lives for the next 4 years?  (short of a revolution anyway...  a revolution lead by mostly apathetic people, and those united only by lack of consensus.  Atheism comes to mind....)  Not voting is the equivalent of saying "please, run my life and do my thinking for me."  Power is lost, not gained.  Silence is not a voice because, though it may be powerful, it cannot be depended on to deliver a coherent message.

Vote for John Galt if you must.

(Edited by Doug Fischer on 2/09, 12:25pm)


Post 12

Saturday, February 9, 2008 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Doug, great post. Sanctioned it.

Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Saturday, February 9, 2008 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Doug Fischer writes:

> Not voting is the equivalent of saying "please, run my life and do my thinking for me." Power is lost, not gained.
> Silence is not a voice because, though it may be powerful, it cannot be depended on to deliver a coherent message.

The analysis of deciding which of the political candidates to vote for or whether to abstain from voting altogether is a very complicated matter influenced by numerous factors for each individual and there is not one answer that can be applied to all. Doug's statements on the matter may represent his personal view and may be correct for him, but it is not one which I share. Let me offer a few observations of my own.

* When one votes, it is a private matter in a voting box, which no one sees or hears. The "message" is the aggregate vote where the individual's contribution in a presidential election represents maybe 1/1,500,000 of the total. In other words, it is insignificant. Unlike other areas of my life where I can see immediate measurable consequences of my actions, voting does not afford this and therefore I do not see how voting delivers a "coherent message". My view is that voting is more an emotionally cathartic experience for some people, offering the illusion of "control" over their fate, rather than being a truly effective action.

* It shouldn't need pointing out, but abstaining from voting is not the same thing as remaining silent on issues of significance. One can raise their voice in support of ideas and actions which one sees as good and vocally condemn those things which one judges to be wrong or evil, without having to vote. If you believe that Rand's observation was correct that meaningful change in this country is going to have to originate from cultural and not political roots, then I believe that taking a vocal stand on issues is an important factor in influencing the direction of culture, while voting is not. Of course, I'm not saying that it's an either/or choice. I'm simply making an observation about how I rate the relative importance of these two types of actions.

* In case it's not clear yet, I do not vote. My decision has a lot to do with my personal hierarchy of values which I'm sure differ from many other people on this list. I understand that for some people, politics is seen as some sort of strategic game where one maneuvers in order to attempt to maximize benefits and minimize losses within the framework of what is possible, given the circumstances of a specific election. I don't think that there is anything morally wrong with that process, but it doesn't fit me. As a highly individualistic person, my approach is more self-centered. I wish to live comfortably with myself, and the simple fact is that I would be in a state of internal emotional turmoil if I had to acknowledge that I contributed to the election of any of the jackasses who have represented us over the years. I did vote once for Richard Nixon in 1972, and I am still embarrassed by that outcome. Ronald Regan is possibly the only President whom I could have voted for and felt somewhat "clean", and yet, had he been able to outlaw abortion as he pledged, how would people then feel about him?

* Another voting-related issue that is very important to me is the fact that I do not agree that most of the issues advocated by the candidates in political races are even fair game for discussion. To take one case as an example, the issue of nationalizing our health care system is not something that should even be on the table. It is prima facie unconstitutional. And yet, not only do we not have the Supreme Court striking this down, we don't even have a candidate willing to stand up and make an issue of this. The debate centers on what and how much of medicine will be under federal or state control. Given these circumstances, casting a vote - any vote at all - validates a system which allows anything and everything to be up for grabs, with no constitutional limits of any kind. It is my analysis that the long-range harm done by individuals who vote with otherwise good intentions, is enormous and far outweighs any "good" accomplished. You may disagree with my conclusion, but I hope you can acknowledge that it is nevertheless a conclusion for not voting that is based upon some rational thought.

* Is voting and then complaining about our government's policies a conflict of interest? No, I do not think so. But many people do, and it can be a real diversion in discussing one's objections with other people who raise this challenge. Being able to point out that you didn't vote for and support the current government can be very effective in knocking down this false objection. Agreed, that's not a very strong argument for not voting, but it is one that I have found useful in many circumstances and it really throws the critics off kilter.

The ultimate point I am trying to make here is that voting can be a risky business for those of us who accept a lot of personal moral responsibility for the consequences of our actions as voters, and as a strategy, abstaining from voting shouldn't simply be dismissed. Not voting is NOT the same thing as saying "please, run my life and do my thinking for me", and I'm offended by this charge. I do think much more could be accomplished if non-voting was articulated as a real political strategy and a very vocal movement was organized. I have suggested this before as something that Objectivists should do. It would offer a platform for a unique message that would very probably get significant media traction and it would also provide a rallying point for many disaffected citizens who would never be attracted to a philosophical movement, but might be willing to lend support to a political organization that offers a unique alternative to politics as usual. It is a method that offers the possibility of having that all important cultural impact that must precede political results.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 14

Saturday, February 9, 2008 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Jordan Zimmerman wrote:
>>>In the end, I'll vote for Obama if he gets the nomination. He seems like an empty vessel of platitudes and, thus, may not actually do anything - which is the best I can hope for.<<<

I thought bush was an empty vessel of platitudes too, and look at the mess we're in now.

Post 15

Saturday, February 9, 2008 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeffrey -- sanctioned your post.  I don't agree with the conclusion, but you did lay out a compelling rationale for not voting.

If a candidate appeared on the ballot for a legislative seat who said his or her sole purpose in running was to be a protest vote against the other candidates, and that if by some miracle they got elected they would abstain from voting or accept a paycheck, thus making it harder for the incumbents to pass anything because of the need to get quorum and the need to get 50% of the vote of the total membership of the body, including those who abstain from voting -- would you vote for this non-candidate?


Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Post 16

Saturday, February 9, 2008 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dr. Paul still gets my vote. Even if he doesn't have a chance in hell of getting nominated.

Post 17

Saturday, February 9, 2008 - 5:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim Henshaw wrote:

> If a candidate appeared on the ballot for a legislative seat who said his or her sole purpose in running was to be a
> protest vote against the other candidates, and that if by some miracle they got elected they would abstain from voting
> or accept a paycheck, thus making it harder for the incumbents to pass anything because of the need to get
> quorum and the need to get 50% of the vote of the total membership of the body, including those who abstain from
> voting -- would you vote for this non-candidate?

Jim:

Thanks for the sanction. Yes, I might vote for such a candidate if they clearly articulated a good reason for why they were adopting this position. I'm not opposed to voting in principal, but neither am I interested in some sort of nihilist position of just voting for obstruction. This wouldn't convince anyone of anything. My goal is for movement back towards a culture of individual autonomy and personal responsibility, and I believe that is only going to happen in the face of a full disclosure of the ramifications of our current socialist policies and an corresponding demonstration of the benefits of the alternative. In the meantime, a principled campaign of obstruction wouldn't be all that bad a thing!

Another related point I might have mentioned in my previous post which cuts a bit closer to home is the problem I have voting for a typical local political candidate. There is not one who is not in favor of a set of programs which involve taxation and redistribution of wealth. Besides the personal affront of having the government stick their hands in my pocket, I simply cannot abide the thought of pulling the voting lever, knowing that I would be complicit in aiding someone in doing the same to my neighbors. I've explained this view to many of them and yet have to find someone who is willing to extend the same level of respect to me.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 18

Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm probably not going to vote, since I think the current system is fundamentally corrupt. I wish I could in good conscience choose from the three front runners, but none of them have my values at heart. Not McCain, Obama, nor Clinton. They all support invasion of privacy, theft of property, and initiation of force, all which are in direct conflict with my values. I wish people were smart enough to recognize these facts of the candidates set forth, but most folks can't grasp that you can't use violence to get your way without the consequence of opening the door to reprisals (foreign or domestic). I hope that reality makes it clear that you can't have your cake and eat it too, especially to those that sanctioned this hegemony of evil.

-- Brede

Post 19

Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 11:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dennis, you wrote:

I see two major considerations, ...
(1) Short-range--The war on terror: ... do we need to act in the interest of survival and vote for McCain? ...
(2) Long-range—Preserving the last vestiges of freedom: ...
The first issue--who will best protect the nation from Islamic terror--is the decisive one.
Why? Is Security more valuable than Liberty? I say, no. I use the following principle of logical thought in order to determine which of 2 things is more valuable:

If A is valuable even without any B whatsoever, but B isn't valuable without A, then A's more valuable than B is.

Here it is with the 2 possible substitutions (proving a superiority of one over the other):

If Security is valuable even without any Liberty whatsoever, but Liberty isn't valuable without Security, then Security is more valuable than Liberty is.

If Liberty is valuable even without any Security whatsoever, but Security isn't valuable without Liberty, then Liberty is more valuable than Security is.

I'll leave the right one unannounced -- as an exercise for the reader.

;-)

Ed


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.