Blame me!

Had to write in Barr's name in Maine.

Post 1

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 1:37pm

... the perfunctory Kodos.

Hey, I'm Canadian!

(Edited by Tyson Russell on 11/04, 1:38pm)

Post 2

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 2:23pm

Blame whom?

I believe the Canadian for "I am not a (US) citizen" is "Je suis une grenouille du nord." Shall I add that extra category for you?

;-D

Post 3

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 2:50pm

It's almost 6pm and I still haven't voted. I was going to vote this morning, but the cars were streaming out into the road it was so busy. I didn't want to wait 30 minutes just to park, and was anxious to get to work anyway, so I just went to work and figured I'd vote when I got out and back home. Naturally, I'm exhausted, starving, and my feet hurt so don't want to go back out now.

Talk me into it.

You have one hour and fifteen minutes to make me vote.

Post 4

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 3:00pm

Teresa there are so many different questions that come to mind... What state are you in? Who would you vote for? How will you feel if you choose to just blow it off, put your feet up and relax?

You're on your own, kid :-)

Post 5

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 3:06pm

Teresa:

OK, I'll take my shot:

Come over to the dark side and join me in a protest against both McCain and Obama, but more importantly, a protest against a system that offers us a non-choice like this while at the same time placing untold measures on the ballot that allow your neighbors to decide how you can live and how to dispose of your income and property. Refuse to participate and sanction a system that has stepped so far beyond any form of constitutional limits on governmental authority and reach, having replaced it with the idea of simple majority (i.e. mob) rule.

Now listen carefully. Your feet are sore. You're getting tired. Wouldn't you like to take a nice warm bath right about now ..... Mmmmmmm ..... Chocolate ..... :-)

Post 6

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 3:17pm

Steve:

Probably the best thing I like about you is your ability to keep a cheerful, humorous disposition while talking about serious topics that I know must still be causing you much distress. (Like this election!) Keep up the good work! :-)

(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 11/04, 3:19pm)

Post 7

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 3:19pm

Teresa (whom I assume has already left to vote) if you don't care then what could I say that would matter?

The choice to live is prior to all ethical argument.

Post 8

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 4:04pm

Ted -

It's a matter of what I care about more, not that I don't care at all.

I'm (grudgingly) leaving in a minute. Geeze, this is a pain in the ass!

How does one qualify for an absentee ballot? In this day and age, to think people have to GO OUT into the cold, rain, snow, and crap, risking encounters with crazy homeless people, drunks, muggers and worse, just to vote, is really insane.

I hate my district. You're barely able to park your car before being assaulted by losers trying to hand you printed election crap. I don't like being approached by these jerks.

Grumble grumble.

Leaving now, but if it's still packed, I'm going back home.

Post 9

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 4:40pm

Ted wrote:

"The choice to live is prior to all ethical argument."

I love how not following the voting course prescribed by Ted is now equated with a choice not to live! I'll say one thing for this particular election, it has demonstrated what appears to be a mass insanity of the general electorate which has extended to quite a bit of what I have read on various Objectivist forums. Rationality has certainly taken a beating over the past couple of years, and that's a worse legacy that we will be paying for much more dearly in the foreseeable future than any of the specific policies that Obama may put into practice.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 10

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 5:02pm

Jeff, you are so right... Ted can not be held guilty of devaluing his positions, wallowing in intellectual humility, or failing to give his yearnings adequate rhetorical wing. Go Ted!

I just finished dinner, the choice to live being prior to all ethical argument, and it was tasty.
----------

On a more serious note, I also agree with Jeff that the level of rationality in this election has largely been missing - in the general populace and in Objectivist circles - and he is right, that this flight from rationality will cost us more down the road than any practical outcomes - it is the irrational approaches that will be fallen back on when each new crisis appears... and appear they will, since irrationality ensures more and more of them - in all areas.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 11/04, 5:07pm)

Post 11

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 5:02pm

Well, that was fun...

I moved a year ago (a few blocks away) so naturally they couldn't find me in "the book." So I had to sit and wait for "the guy" to come and make sure I was who I said I was. Ridiculous. Three blocks away put me in a whole new "precinct," which meant I was in the "wrong line" at the polling place.

The workers were all wonderful, and I was a crabby bitch. I told them they were all "great Americans" before I left, and I meant it.

Post 12

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 5:11pm

Oh Jesus.

If I want to call people depraved, I can do it without your help, Jeff. All I said was that someone has to care before one can argue them in favor of a course of action. I.e., "the choice to live is prior." Teresa asked for a reason to vote. I understand Objectivism well enough to know that offering a person a reason to act implies that that person already has some underlying motivation. I had enough respect for her not to argue that she had a duty, or that she should think in a certain way. She knows what she believes.

My disdain for your position, Jeff, is based on my belief that you see voting as a proof of moral superiority. I think you vote Libertarian for the same reason some people buy expensive wine when they can't taste the difference. I am not opposed to voting for a Libertarian, depending upon the circustances. I have done it before. I simply think that who becomes president is what is determined by an election - not how moral I am because of some "message" I send or because of some "sanction" I withhold. You are the one who thinks voting Libertarian (or whatever) is a moral accomplishment or proof of purity, and if you didn't think this, you wouldn't have jumped to that silly conclusion that I am challenging the morality of those who vote differently from me.

As it stands, I don't know how Teresa is voting. And I would prefer that she vote Barr rather than abstain. I would prefer that everyone vote his conscience, even if (shock!) his conscience indicates that he vote Obama.

Post 13

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 6:01pm

Ted wrote:

"My disdain for your position, Jeff, is based on my belief that you see voting as a proof of moral superiority."

Well Ted, I have explained my position in detail in the past and have already answered this view that you hold. You don't accept my explanation and, at least on this issue, you continue to characterize me in a negative light. There is nothing further I can say on the subject that I haven't said before or covered briefly in post #5 above.

"you wouldn't have jumped to that silly conclusion that I am challenging the morality of those who vote differently from me."

Hmmm, despite your explanation in post #12 which I do not really understand, I still do not see how the original statement in its context, could or should be interpreted differently. In addition to my exhibiting moral superiority, are you also arguing that my choice not to vote and the reason I articulated above is not based upon a desire to achieve an outcome* and that is tantamount to choosing not to live? Whatever the point, it is still as much a mystery to me now as it was the first time you expressed it. I'm listening if you care to explain further.

Regards,
--
Jeff

* I am working for an outcome that is very important to me - just not the same one you are when you cast your vote.

Post 14

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 8:18pm

Looks like it is President Obama.

Hey how many votes did Barr get? I think about 0 statistically. Wow, that really mattered.

Post 15

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 9:12pm

I'd say a vote for Barr was just as effective by most measures, as a vote for McCain.

Post 16

Tuesday, November 4, 2008 - 9:20pm

Those who voted for Barr and those who voted for McCain and those who expressed their disdain by not voting at all... all have ended up in the same sad place, and quietly wonder what will the future bring.
-------

How sad that Kurt is gleeful over how few people voted for free-enterprise - a statistic that will not auger well for our future political hopes.

Post 17

Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 4:39am

Kurt,

According to me, human motivation is the product of:

[confidence] x [utility] x [value]

If you spend time licking to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop, then you are confident in your licking ability, see the utility of licking in reducing the current size of the Lollie Pop, and you expect value regarding the chewy center. We do that with votes, too.

Here's the motivation algorithm for a smart libertarian:

[confident in my ability to see the best choice] x [find immediate utility in voting my principles] x [see expected value from such freedom-signalling in a sea of noise]

Here's the thinking of a dumb republican (caveat: most republican folks here aren't this dumb):

[confident in my ability to see the worst choice (of two evils)] x [find immediate utility in voting for a candidate who can, in fact, win] x [see expected value of living my life on-the-run from evil (rather than running after the good)]

The contrast is striking. I post this in order to gain understanding of how folks with similar core principles vote differently.

Ed

Post 18

Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 6:08am

Well, this is an old argument. I think that the better way to push libertarianism is to work in places from the ground up - you have a chance to win some smaller races, and build a solid, and more importantly, consistant, message and party, and then you can begin mounting a more serious opposition.

Meanwhile, I still believe that when the politicians look at the results they see the aggregate votes and push their agendas in the direction that fits the vote, so that is more important to do in a presidential election.

Also - another note is that the theory seems to hold that now in the TV age, the most charismatic candidate always wins.

Post 19

Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 6:05pm