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Post 40

Monday, November 30, 2009 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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Michael -- Thanks for the book reference (and a sanction) -- will check it out, see if Gould can shoot down "The Bell Curve"s thesis.

Wiki'd it, but I'm skeptical of the notion that IQ / g (the general intelligence factor) aren't really fairly good measures of something real.

I think perhaps a more important measure of a person than IQ would be how they use their intelligence -- far better, far more laudable, to be a fry cook at McDonalds with an IQ of 80 than a brilliant statist like Ellsworth Toohey.

Post 41

Monday, November 30, 2009 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,,

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Wiki'd it, but I'm skeptical of the notion that IQ / g (the general intelligence factor) aren't really fairly good measures of something real.
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I agree.


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I think perhaps a more important measure of a person than IQ would be how they use their intelligence
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Indeed. I think you are describing something orthogonal to intelligence: rationality.


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far better, far more laudable, to be a fry cook at McDonalds with an IQ of 80 than a brilliant statist like Ellsworth Toohey.
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Indeed. One of the smartest men in the world -- Chris Langen -- is merely a bouncer in a bar. And Spinoza, himself, was just a shoemaker (or something just as menial).


Ed

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Post 42

Monday, November 30, 2009 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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I've read the Bell Curve, it was required reading for one of my college courses, which the professor took an adversarial stance against the book.

The authors of the Bell Curve have established a variety of correlations with respect to IQ test scores, but the question remains if such a correlation proves a causal link for innate intelligence, which is what the authors of the Bell Curve fail to establish. They claim they can isolate environmental factors and the remaining variation in IQ test scores between races should account for innate intelligence. One way they tried to do this was to compare IQ test scores between African-Americans and native Africans, indicating that African-Americans scored higher than native Africans did. They theorized this was do to a "mixing" of traits with European genes, since most African-Americans have some white ancestry. They then compared South African blacks that also have some of this "mixing" in their ancestry and found the average IQ test score was similar to African-American test scores. Europeans scored on average 10 points higher than native Africans did. So they draw the conclusion that genetic inheritance is a necessary causal link to explain this discrepancy.

Convinced yet? I'm not. In not one instance has this successfully isolated environmental factors such as cultural attitudes or the state of education in a country. No one in their right mind would think Africa is on par culturally or educationally with America or even with South Africa. Yet Herrnstein and Murray think the only possible explanation is a variation in innate intelligence between races. The only way to isolate environmental factors as a variable in order to measure 'innate intelligence' is to take two individuals that experienced a history of identical environmental stimulation, teach them both a set of concepts, then test both of them to see how well each scores. The problem is no two people have identical sets of environmental stimulation, so it would be impossible to test this.

Environmental stimulation is an extremely important factor for performing well on an IQ test. Take for example the case of "Genie", an abused child referred to as a "feral child" that received no environmental stimulation until she reached the age of 12 due to severe child abuse she suffered. Which entailed being strapped to a "potty chair" and kept isolated in a room with no social contact for almost her entire life. After social services had learned of this, she was rescued and then rehabilitation was attempted. Genie could not talk nor could she walk upright. She had to be taught how to walk, and while attempts were made to teach her language, the best that she could do was memorize vocabulary, she could not grasp grammar at all. It's theorized that during early child hood the brain undergoes lateralization, which is a process where children are able to grasp concepts like language syntax and its critical for children to learn this during this time. If this is missed, an individual may never recover and learn grammar. Genie had no physical or mental deformities to speak of (another words she did not suffer from Down Syndrome or any other genetic defect) yet she would score lower on an IQ test than someone with Down Syndrome. It begs the question of how much intellectual stimulation a child gets during lateralization that can profoundly influence how quickly and efficiently that individual can pick up concepts later in life. A dull uninteresting environment will yield a dull and uninteresting individual.

Take also the IQ test itself. Is it a fair measure of intelligence? The question itself is a floating abstraction without a contextual basis for what one means by "intelligence". Intelligent in what way? Mathematics? Biology? Law? Philosophy? Mechanics? Music? Painting? The authors use "g" as a measure of "general intelligence" but this has no concretization to reality beyond just an IQ test score. Was Michaelangelo more intelligent than Mozart? Was Albert Einstein more intelligent than Ayn Rand? The questions become absurd once you realize each one of these individuals were geniuses in their own respective fields of study. You couldn't give them a test that could accurately measure one being more intelligent than the other since they both exhibit their intelligence in wildly different ways.

Some of the IQ tests that the authors use in their data include aptitude tests given to military personnel, which include trigonometry questions. I don't care how smart you are, if you've never learned trigonometry, you will never answer any trigonometry questions correctly on an aptitude test. There is no such thing as a "trigonometry gene".

Also consider that the brain is a physical organ, like your heart, lungs, kidney, liver, muscular system, etc. The most noticeable difference between humans are outward appearances such as skin color, hair color, height, weight, etc. Yet these seem to be the most variation you would ever find between any two humans. Everything else has an extremely limited genetic variation between humans. A stomach is not drastically different from another stomach, nor is a heart all that much different from another individual's heart. People look at height differences and presume that other traits must have just as significant a variation between humans, but there is no evidence for this. The brain as a physical organ shouldn't be that much different in that regard. In fact there is less genetic variation in humans than there is with any other animal. Elite athletes only slightly vary in ability. The difference between first and last place in many Olympic events such as swimming or running is down to a matter of a couple of seconds. The military is an excellent example of a random sampling of the human population, after only one month of physical training, the variation in the "military run" is less than 20%. The variation keeps getting smaller and smaller as more months of training go by. The fact is genetically were are extremely similar to each other, but with regard to ambition, desire, values and environmental influences, the differences become more apparent.




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Post 43

Monday, November 30, 2009 - 11:03pmSanction this postReply
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Let's try an alternate phrasing of the poll question that may have more real life relevance:

If you had to choose to marry / be in a long-term relationship with one of these two people, which would you choose:

1) Someone very intelligent

2) Someone less intelligent than person #1, but whose company brings you greater happiness than person #1


P.S. I'd choose door number 2 here.

Post 44

Monday, November 30, 2009 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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John, you raise some interesting, thoughtful objections. Sanctioned your post.

Re: this, though:

Everything else has an extremely limited genetic variation between humans.

This assumes that large differences in ability and physique can't arise from tiny differences in genetic variation. This is not true. Chimpanzee and human DNA only have slight variations, yet no one would maintain that a chimp could function as well as an average human given the right environmental influences.

And yes, top athletes of the same gender have only miniscule performance differences. Yet, there has NEVER been a single woman who has made the NFL, because of a single chromosomal difference.

And, if you look at the racial makeup of NFL teams, you will notice that these teams do not even come close to matching the ethnic makeup of the general population.

Further, if you compare a top athlete to a couch potato, huge differences in ability arise. Yet, all of these differences arise from tiny genetic variations.

The reality is that, no matter how much anyone coached me, I would never have made the NFL. It's not in my genes. And I have some innate athletic ability. Some people, say Woody Allen, are even more wildly unsuited to have made the NFL.

So, I'm not buying the notion that tiny differences in DNA couldn't manifest in huge differences in cognitive ability, nor am I buying the notion that everyone has the cognitive ability to achieve anything they want. Some people, regardless of how they are raised, are not going to be able to be nuclear physicists or concert violinists.

I'm not dismissing the importance of environment, and neither did the authors of The Bell Curve. But, their point is that there are some very large differences in cognitive ability between individuals. Some (or in the example you gave, virtually all) of that ability may not be realized due to environment, but by the same token there is a biologic limit to how much ability any given individual can manifest in any endeavor even if maximum effort is given to develop those abilities.

Someone with trisomy-21 isn't going to get a PhD. Women aren't likely to make the NFL anytime soon. I'm never going to be much of an artist, or be a social butterfly, or an incurable optimist.

It's not a bad thing to recognize that individuals differ in their maximum potential. It IS a bad thing to have laws passed based on the faulty premise that these differences don't really exist, and ignoring the nasty consequences that inevitably arise from bad laws that deny reality. The important thing is to realize that the fair and ethical thing to do is to judge individuals as individuals, on their own merits, and not on racist group notions.

And so I maintain that things such as the EEOC's rules and regulations ARE based on collectivist, racist group notions, the notion that despite the evidence to the contrary, there really aren't any differences in the cognitive curves for different ethnic groups, and so the government is justified in enforcing equality of outcomes within ethnic groups at a business.

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Post 45

Tuesday, December 1, 2009 - 12:28amSanction this postReply
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Further, if you compare a top athlete to a couch potato, huge differences in ability arise. Yet, all of these differences arise from tiny genetic variations.


You hardly make your case with a sentiment like that. Would you look at a body builder and a couch potato and think "Oh my, it must be from tiny variations in genetics!"


Some people, say Woody Allen, are even more wildly unsuited to have made the NFL


And yet, Woody Allen at 5'5" is one inch shorter than two current players at 5'6". Historically, quite a few football players have been the same size or smaller than Woody Allen.

From - http://www.profootballresearchers.org/Coffin_Corner/20-06-772.pdf


That question was posed to me by Billy J. Cross, the mighty-mite, pint-sized 5-foot-6, 150-pound halfback with the Chicago Cardinals in the early 1950s. Pat Summerall, his old roommate1 had mentioned on a television broadcast that Cross was the smallest player to ever play pro football. The diminutive Cross, now retired in his hometown, asked me if I could verify Summerall's assertion. In taking a quick survey of references in my library, I was able to inform him that he very probably was the smallest player in the modern post-1950 era.
However, I found twenty players who were either shorter or lighter in weight than he had been. These guys could have been horse race jockeys. Admittedly, most of the players played in the 1920s and had brief flings, but the findings were statistically fascinating (in a trivial kind of way). Just Ito name a few, there was Patsy Giugliano (5’4”,140), Slim Jimmy Van Dyke (140), Bobby Wilson (147), John "Shorty" Tanner (5'5”), and Pard Pearce (5’5”). A lot of the players deservedly sported nicknames like "Pee Wee" and "Tiny." There were even two who also played major league baseball: Chuck Dressen (147) and Pid Purdy (145).
A couple of the really short players who stretched to Imeasure 5'3" included Butch Meeker and John Law, but there was one player who beat everyone else in smallness -- Jack "Soapy" Shapiro. He was a 5'1", 119-pound blocking back on the 1929 Staten Island Stapletons.


A 5'1" 119 lb football player! Well, I guess Woody Allen had a shot after all.

These kinds of assumptions gloss over the biological laws of scaling. While a larger player is stronger in an absolute sense, relative to *his own weight* he is actually weaker than a smaller player, this is because muscle strength increases with the cross sectional area (the square of the linear dimension) while muscle MASS increases with the CUBE of the linear dimension. For this reason, smaller people can change directions faster and jump higher (compared to their own heights) for certain positions in many pro sports the ability to rapidly accelerate offers tremendous advantages.
(Edited by Michael F Dickey on 12/01, 12:35am)


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Post 46

Tuesday, December 1, 2009 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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Jim:



, if you compare a top athlete to a couch potato, huge differences in ability arise. Yet, all of these differences arise from tiny genetic variations.


Because the couch potato never exercises or trains to be an athlete! Just as it is possible for a human to be dimwitted because he never receives any intellectual training. I didn't say there's no such thing as variations in intelligence or ability, the question is how much of these differences we see are due to "innateness" or concentrated effort. The fact is you can turn a couch potato into an athlete and an athlete can become a couch potato. The huge differences come from exerting some actual effort. Do you think specific individuals are born with the ability to play football or do you think they train a good number of years to play football? Is there a "football" gene?

Would you like to see what a couch potato was able to accomplish in 8 months? (Tell the children to leave the room)



The horrifying picture on the left was me when I was a couch potato. I became this way because I ate horrible food and never exercised. The picture on the right was a result of a strict diet, and an exercise regimen consisting of cardiovascular conditioning and heavy weight training, and you can see just how huge a difference this is. If you want to sit there and tell me the picture on the right is not from hard work and effort and it's mostly just genetics, go on fooling yourself into thinking that. I'm convinced people that say this are just trying to find some excuse to justify their lack of exerting any effort.



(Edited by John Armaos on 12/01, 10:20am)


Post 47

Tuesday, December 1, 2009 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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Impressive results, John! Way to go! Did you use a particular commercial program to get into shape or one of your own design?

Post 48

Tuesday, December 1, 2009 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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Excellent job, John!

Ed
[former fitness guru]


Post 49

Tuesday, December 1, 2009 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Luke and Ed.

Luke I started off doing some light cardio for the first couple of months and light weight training consisting mostly of just machines combined with a calorie deficit diet. I then tried the P90x program and that worked for me quite well but I wasn't really able to put on some decent muscle mass until I dropped down to a small bodyfat percentage, which I was able to accomplish with the P90x program, and I then went straight into a traditional weight-lifting regimen, a 4 day split training each major body part once per week. The standard was Bench Press, Back Squat, and Deadlifts and then various ancillary exercises combined with a calorie surplus (tried a bulking phase). I'm still in my bulking phase and when the new year starts I'm going to try and trim away the extra fat I gained in the past 6 months during this bulking phase. I gained in a year a total of 15 pounds of muscle.

I also want to address Jim's assertion that we have only slight variations between chimp and human DNA. The problem with this thinking is a lack of holding up a proper standard for such an evaluation.

We do not have a tiny variation of DNA with chimps, it's that we are closest genetically to chimps than we are with any other animal. But a human being could not mate with a chimp. The genetic difference between humans is far far smaller than that if compared to a chimp. By that standard of measurement, the difference is drastically smaller between sets of humans than it is between humans and chimps. The other thing to note is that this genetic variation between humans seems to have the smallest variation within an animal population. That is pick any other animal species, and they will exhibit far more genetic variation between individuals within that species than is the case with humans.

Post 50

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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Glad to read another P90X success story! I did P90X regularly a few years ago and dropped from 27% body fat to 10% body fat. (See the results here.) Graduate school knocked me off my schedule and getting back into it has been tough. I look forward to seeing your progress reports next year, John.

Post 51

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Impressed. Good work(outs) John!

jt

Post 52

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, getting rid of that last bit of bicycle inner tube around ye is always the hardest...

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Post 53

Friday, December 4, 2009 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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I suspect there are many people who are too sad and stupid to answer the question.(!)


(Edited by Ed Hudgins on 12/04, 3:41pm)


(Edited by Ed Hudgins on 12/04, 3:42pm)


Post 54

Friday, December 11, 2009 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/11, 8:28am)


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