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Sunday, January 5 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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This doesn't really read like a poll where someone wants to find out what others are thinking - but more like a way to make a statement. Is it yours, Dean?

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Sunday, January 5 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

You got me. My intention was to get others thoughts on the subject. Off the top of my head I thought of so many "conspiracies" of how the gold price is manipulated that I ran out of space for the "I'm not sure" option.

Maybe I shouldn't have put so many details into the poll and instead just had options like:
- Not manipulated
- Some market cornering by corrupt financial institutions
- Central bank secret loaning and selling
- All out war on the price of gold
- I'm not sure

So hey, if your not sure on this poll, chose "lower due to futures market operating on margin"... which is a fact that isn't necessarily manipulation.

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Sunday, January 5 - 9:07pmSanction this postReply
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Dean -you've got some sort of agenda that just doesn't compute. Gold prices have risen from below $200 per ounce to $1200 today in the last 35 years or so. I initially bought gold at $171 in about 1975. If you want to state your reasons why it has risen so much, why don't you say so?

Sam

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Post 3

Monday, January 6 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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I just want to know to what extent others here think that gold prices are manipulated. How is that an agenda?

Of course... I do have an agenda to expose and end fraud... if that is what you are getting at? Is there fraud in the gold market?

If the gold price went up instead of down in April 2013, then how might the world be different?

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Monday, January 6 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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I took the first choice only because it was closest to the facts. Adam Smith wrote that no sooner does a group of tradesmen meet in a pub than the talk turns to ways to restrict the markets to their own benefit.  Why should gold be any different?  Moreover, gold's primary use is jewelry. Monetary demand is a distant second.

If the price of gold is being kept "artificially" low (a questionable assumption), we all benefit because we all buy gold. Only so much exists.  Counting unworked mines, sea water, asteroids, even transmutation of energy,it would still be limited in abundance. Sooner or later, the price must rise to its (putative) "natural" level and we all benefit from our holdings.

The only value of any kind of money is what you can buy with it.  And there are more kinds of money than gold. It was always true.  Hayek's essay, The Denationalisation of Money, hit upon that fact, but the fact always existed.  We all know about gold-silver bimetallism. Many other forms have always been in use. For most of history, gold had a limited role, mostly for international, large-scale commerce.  Also, the Eastern Roman Empire bought off barbarians with so much gold that you can buy these coins for only about double bullion, not a bad retail price for a 1000-year old coin.  Day-to-day, people used silver, and eventually, copper.  In the Middle Ages, with no small change, people in England turned to "counters" lead tokens previously used in checkerboard accounting tallies.  The demand for copper merchant tokens in the 1790s was the impetus for the success of the Soho Mint of Heaton and Watt. 

In fact, the bullion price of copper was always a barrier to production. Eventually, the world settled for a token or fiat base metal floor for coinage.  However, these were not legal tender (or only up to a small amount like three dollars). They were a convenience, commonly accepted and thereby given value in trade.

We need to differentiate social values from objective values.  Gold might have objective value, but generally speaking, money is a social value, or we would never have gotten off the so-called (and short-lived) "gold standard".


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Monday, January 6 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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MEM,

You chose the first choice because in your mind "it was closest to the facts". The "facts" huh? OK, glad we have this settled. Next poll please!

Agreed, if the price has been held "artificially low" via market manipulation such as central and bullion banks secretly selling their citizens and their depositors gold into the free market... then people who have purchased gold at the undervalued price (lower than if this fraud was not going on) would benefit.

Eventually, I'd agree, a manipulated price does still over the long term move towards where it should if the fraud wasn't there. For example Sam's post which actually does bring some "facts" to the table on the gold's price changes. But enough of your shenanigans. This is a big deal:

This poll is asking about whether central banks and bullion banks are a fraud. If they do not have the gold they claim to have, then when it comes time to deliver, people who have claims on them will be left with nothing. The longer this potential fraud goes on, the greater extent people would be victim to financial fraud. If there is no such fraud involved, then there are no such victims.

Lots of people invest not by underlying fundamentals but instead by technical analysis. This would compound the impact of such a potential fraud. So for example the April 2013 incident would sway away all but the most self confident independent thinking investors.
We need to differentiate social values from objective values. Gold might have objective value, but generally speaking, money is a social value, or we would never have gotten off the so-called (and short-lived) "gold standard".
What the heck? I shouldn't even respond to you when you post this bullshit. Channeling your inner Toohey?
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 1/06, 9:03am)


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Monday, January 6 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

Sorry I guess I didn't fully answer your question.

"If you want to state your reasons why it has risen so much, why don't you say so?"

I think the gold price has "risen" in dollars because: The market value of dollars has decreased. The market purchasing power of gold has more or less maintained its value. The market value of dollars has decreased due to the vast increase in the number of dollars that exist.

=========

Now as for the manipulation that this poll is about...

Lets first drop the debate on other than the outright theft/law/military suppression of gold trade and gold contracts (some acknowledged as fact by governments, some are non-government conspiracies).

Lets just focus on the potential market fraud.

=========

Market fraud:

Lets say that the central banks, bullion banks, and gold price tracking funds around the world actually don't have as much gold as they claim to have, that instead, if everyone were to ask for delivery, they'd default on their accounts.

This would imply that the market currently thinks there is a much larger gold supply than there actually is. Wikipedia says there is an estimated 174,100 tonnes of gold ever mined. If for example the US doesn't actually have the 8.1k tonnes of gold it claims to have (4.66% of mined gold), then we'd all realize that gold is actually ~4.66% more rare than the market previously thought due to the US's fraudulent claim. Or if say the US fails to deliver Germany's gold... how many tonnes of gold does the US claim to store for other countries?

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Monday, January 6 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
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Dean, if central banks are defrauding each other, what is that to me? You are not alone in "exposing" this "secret." (You got it from reading the claims of others. I have known about this for years and have posted on it also.) People who trade in financial markets whether on "technical" analysis, or "fundamentals", or tea leaves are still morally responsible for their own choices. Do you mean to tell me that innocent individuals (intellectually innocent, i.e., unknowing) buy millions and billions of dollars worth of gold futures (long, short, put, call, covered, naked) not knowing about this "secret" manipulation that you know about?

Again, money media are social values. Gold is objectively more valuable as money than is salt if only because gold does not melt in the rain. However, in other times and places people traded away gold to get salt, again, on the basis of social value.


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Monday, January 6 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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MEM,

"Do you mean to tell me that innocent individuals (intellectually innocent, i.e., unknowing) buy millions and billions of dollars worth of gold futures (long, short, put, call, covered, naked) not knowing about this "secret" manipulation that you know about?"

No, most people in the US don't participate in the gold market. Most people watch the prices (technical analysis), listen to the mainstream financial media for interpretation, and accept the advice of their Fidelity customer service representative. Hence most people are buying US Treasuries and big houses instead of gold. They don't buy gold due their unknowing.

For some reason US citizens seem to trust the word of their government. Maybe this is slowly changing? The internet is allowing people to directly communicate with each other and get alternative news sources and see others opinions, unlike before where people would primarily only see what is fed to them on FCC TV. Its not "secret" manipulation that only I know about... its just a great deal of fraud that for some reason the general US population doesn't demand to have answers on. Why hasn't there been an audit of central bank gold storage for so many years? Because we live in a democracy, and the majority are fraudsters who don't want to be exposed?

Its the middle class I'm fighting for here. Their market purchasing power is being dishonestly harvested by the elite. Maybe I should just let it be. I don't know. I guess I wouldn't care so much if it wasn't that the elites also steal from me too in other ways... and that this is part of the process of how they attain their market purchasing power. The "innocent" sheeple are empowering the elite manipulators.

I guess it is the same thing with the concept of "Atlas Shrugged". People who fall for duty ethics empower elite manipulators too.

====

Enough with the "social value" bullshit. To me it sounds like you are making the point that market valuations of money is completely determined by sways in popular opinion like the latest fashion or the latest child toy collectible, with no recognizable reason behind it. Various commodities are used as currencies in various contexts based on their ability to increase efficiency of trade. Trade historically has shown to increase net goal attainment via specialization increasing production efficiency. This is objective. Gold has this objective value, a component of its value that over time lasts through sways of "social value". Gold's vulnerability to theft and taxation by country sized governments in the recent ~100 years has significantly reduced gold's utility in trade and hence this aspect of its value. Fiat money, although maintained monopoly status by government force, still has objective value through its utility in trade. Bitcoin is a new technology gaining acceptance that has the potential to compete against fiat even in the face of government's attempt to forcefully monopolize money. Objective value.

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Tuesday, January 7 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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Dean, Ayn Rand explains "social values" and "objective values" toward the end of this lecture: From the ARI Campus. Based on that lecture, I understand monetary media to be social values. Otherwise, people would demand gold. Even here in Texas, I never see a gas station that prices in anything but FRNs.

That said, I expect that most of those gas station owners do save via gold and silver, long before they buy a big house or T-bills.

A few months back, we had a very real shortage of retail silver and gold. You must be aware of that. People went into coin stores and bought it all up. The situation has eased somewhat. I just question how you measure what "most" people do.


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Tuesday, January 7 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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I didn't want my thoughts to sway the poll results... but so far the participation has been so low that I guess I might as well post my thoughts now...

I initially bought some gold at about $425 in 2005. My reasons for buying it were mainly due to knowing that the banks were offering home loans at ridiculously low interest rates... which I though would inevitably lead to FRN supply inflation. Back then I was just buying gold to hedge against USD inflation. I hadn't realized the magnitude of the corruption and manipulation of the gold market by the Federal government and banks.

The paper gold market short dump in April 2013 (after Cyrpus) and Germany's inability to get its gold back from the US (http://rt.com/business/germany-to-return-gold-737/) for me put "the nail in the coffin". Now I believe that there exists a group of elite bankers who systemically do everything they can in order to manipulate the gold price and other markets in order to harvest as much wealth as possible from the unknowing productive middle class. So my answer to this poll was the last one: all of the above. And more.

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Sunday, February 16 - 6:43pmSanction this postReply
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I chose all of the above.



Post 12

Tuesday, May 20 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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DMG asserted, "I initially bought some gold at about $425 in 2005. My reasons for buying it were mainly due to knowing that the banks were offering home loans at ridiculously low interest rates... "

 

I initially bought gold at $38 per ounce in 1971 because I knew history.  I also bought all the way up to 1979 and all the way down... If I could buy Lutetium so conveniently, I would.  So, if I am low on fuel and pull into a gas station here in Texas and I need like 1.8 ounces of silver to make a tank of gas, I can do that with bars, and rounds, and 90% common US silver coins.  How do you do that with Bitcoins?

 

I like Bitcoins. They are, and point to, a new dawn in money media.  They are an extension of the "virtual money of account" (pounds-shillings-pence) invented by bankers of the Middle Ages.  Bitcoin may well hallmark our time in the course of monetary history.  

 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 5/20, 6:18pm)



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Wednesday, May 21 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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MEM

 

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.  Maybe this will answer your question:  You can divide a bitcoin in any fraction between 21,000,000 (if you had all 21 million bitcoins) down to "0.00000001" (10 nano bitcoins).

 

If bitcoin became so valuable that 10 nano wasn't small enough of a denomination, we could alter the data structure to allow more decimal places.

 

(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 5/21, 7:00pm)



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Thursday, May 22 - 5:49amSanction this postReply
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Another odd fact in plain site, due to 'valuation.'

 

Stock market at or near 'record highs.'    Main street long ago scratching its head over that one, that fact is not reflected in circulation of actual real value in the economies (people working and consuming.)

 

But financial engineers are saying not a problem, because the companies whose stock is so high are 'valued' highly in units of US dollars.

 

They are 'valued' highly because they are sitting on huge static piles of US dollars.

 

So stand back at 10,000 ft. and notice exactly what happened, which is the following:

 

1] Some masters of the economic universe in DC got the bright idea that it would be good to ask a secretary to print a lot of zeros on a piece of paper.   She did.

 

2] She walked over to the FED window, showed them the nice seal, and handed over the piece of paper.

 

3] The FED window accepted the piece of paper(basically, a promise to show up with another piece of paper just like it in the future)and increased the government current account of spendable cash.   They pressed a button.

 

4] If you are keeping track, so far. the total amount of new value in our economies is the effort of the secretary to print out the paper with the zeros and the nice seal, plus lets not forget pressing the button at the FED.    On the spendable IOU side of the ledger is a trillion or so new US dollars in treasury.

 

5] WAM.  Selective rain falls in the economies as this money runs downhill.   At some point, someone in the economies who actually produced something of value accepts these IOUs, hands over value, and then turns around and looks in the economies for new value.   Not finding sufficient new value, and uncertain about the future of the economic gaming, these folks sit on the IOUs, do not hire new workers, do not expand, do not find increasing demand from folks not connected to the free rain machine, and so... there is insufficient increased circulation.   

 

But the good news is, their 'valuation' in units of US$ increases.    The enedmic inflation can't show up as increased wages because of the high unemployment.   This also keeps prices down, and so, the inflation erupts about the only place it can erupt;   inflated stock prices 'balanced' by companies sitting on valueless dollars.   0=0, economies gasping because the economic masters of the universe have found a scheme to tax them into oblivion and let them struggle indefinitely to provide enough 'value' for those connected to the zero printing secretary and sustinance for the rest.

 

Times are booming in DC; never skipped a beat.  Not once during this whole transition to The Hunger Games.

 

Wake up and smell the serfdom.

 

regards,

Fred

 

(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 5/22, 5:55am)



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Sunday, October 12 - 7:09amSanction this postReply
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On the topic of Magic and Illusion

 

The Illusion:  the full faith and credit of the US Treasury rests on its ability to issue bonds backed by a promise to tax working people -in the future- and repay those bonds with actual value.    Spend money now and demand actual value now, but it will be repaid with actual value in the future(paid for taxation.)

 

What our government actually does, and what many claim has no consequences:

 

 

The US Treasury prints a 1 with 12 zeros on a piece of paper.  (It might be many pieces of paper, but not important.)    The FED accepts that piece of paper, backed as it is by 'the full faith and credit of the US Treasury' and assigns current accounts to the US Treasury, which it can now spend in the value creating economies, either directly or indirectly.    It carries those assigned current accounts, based on the printed piece of paper, and demands actual value from the value creating economies and those who create actual value.   (It also does the same thing with taxes.)

 

In the future, when those bonds come due, the US treasury prints a 1 with 13 zeros on a piece of paper, does the same thing, pays off the old bond, but now has fresh new demand current accounts.  It goes out again into the value creating economies and demands actual value from those who create actual value in the value producing economies.   It does the same thing with taxes.

 

When Congress blithely 'increases the debt ceiling', it is authorizing the painless printing of additional zeros on pieces of paper.

 

What the nation experiences - not in the future, but immediately, as the funny money is 'spent' - is the sense of working harder and receiving less value from the economies.     Unless you can position yourself very close to this tsunami of valueless cash coming from the painless printing of zeros on pieces of paper, you will find yourself on the value producing end of a parasitic scam, where value-less dollars rain from on high and run downhill, stealing value from the value producing economies.

 

Notice that there is little difference between direct taxation and the painless printing of zeros on paper bonds, as far as the value producing economies are concerned; they provide the actual 'value' whether the government 'spending' is funded from direct taxation or from zeros painlessly printed on paper bonds.

 

The same people who produce the value also fight and die in the wars, while the same people who appropriate the value for nothing but painlessly printed zeros on paper - who buy votes and power with their ability to painlessly print zeros and 'run the Economy' and wars from the safety of subsidized Georgetown Bistros-benefit from it all as if this new Serfdom was the real life version of The Hunger Games.  

 

This parasitic rot from above is the new insidious 'socialism' in America, which has found a way to limitlessly (as if  Congress ever refuses to raise the debt 'limit' when it simply needs more money to hand out)find new ways to ride value producers, like a parasitic disease.

 

There is no 'fixing' this parasitic disease.  That is human nature.   The infestation is dug in like ticks.

 

What remains is to see this scam for what it is, and to shrug.  To not support it.  To resist in place.  To hide in plain site.

 

To create as little excess value as possible.  To employ none.   To not support the new Serfdom.

 

Ie, the new economies.   Which are the human nature response to human nature run amok.

 

The parasites believe that they can always confiscate ever more zeros on paper via taxation, mainly because they never once, in all this confiscatory gluttony, ever once understood the nature of value.   They are all about the value-proxies.   'Record' stock prices scored in units of value-proxies, not value.

 

Zeros = Zeros.

 

And then what?

 

It isn't necessary to dig deep looking for a cabal of value manipulation; it is being done in plain site, with most of us(not here but in the nation at large) arguing that there is not only no consequence to Congress blithly raising the federal debt ceiling, but that 'of course' Congress should do that.

 

In such an environment of offically sanctioned government criminal actions as 'normal and proper and necessary to the functioning of needed government,' I can find no basis to criticise the extra-legal activities of anyone trying to live out their lives in this tribal cluster fuck, including bankers, traders, and welfare queens gatering up their extra $50 of lobster tails in their little shopping carts while connected cronies along the CronyFest on the Potomac are raking in billions of purloined value from the value producing economies, all under the banner of 'Running The Economy' as if we were the failed USSR..

 

 

Regards,

Fred 



Post 16

Monday, October 13 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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I've posted this theory of 'federal spending stimulus' several places, including, a Princeton Alumni site where folks of a liberal bent, including bankers, often give forth.    I'd think after all this time, someone from the camp that supports the alternate theories of how all this government intervention into the economies has been beneficial would show up and point out the flaws in this thoery, and set me straight on how the US treasury and its interactions with the FED 'really' work.   Especially there.

 

The silence has been overwhelming.   

 

I'd listen hard.   I'm always eager to learn.    I'm not an economist.   I'm not a political scientist.   This isn't my wheelhouse.   So can't a PhD economist/political scientist from those fields of scientific inquiry show up -- here or elsewhere -- and illuminate this laymen how the full faith and credit of the US Government really works to 'run the Economy?'   (And then, while I have their attention, it would be great to ask them to explain Krugman's liguidity trap paper and its 'endowment' economy model with all the trust Fund babies; the explanation should be riviting.)

 

In their own words.  It should be easy, because obviously, the alternative actually works and is good for the nation and so on.

 

I am eager to learn that we really aren't just a more sophisticated USSR.

 

The sound of the crickets, here and elsewhere, is telling me otherwise.

 

regards,

Fred



Post 17

Monday, October 13 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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The fallacy of both "insider trading" (so-called) and punishing people for it is that EVERY trader believes that they have special insight - charts, rumors, tarot cards - that no one else does. Even the passivist who places their money in an index-based fund thinks that their strategy is more insightful than that of the very many others chasing  superstitions.  So, too, is it here. 

 

I accept the claim that central banks are "cooking the books" by listing as assets gold they lease from and to each other at the same time.  But everyone knows that.  So, the price of gold is the price of gold, objectively.  

 

The US Mint is not alone in striking coins in palladium, platinum, and other metals. Gold holds no monopoly.

 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 10/13, 7:45pm)



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Post 18

Tuesday, October 14 - 7:17amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

 

I accept the claim that central banks are "cooking the books" by listing as assets gold they lease from and to each other at the same time.

 

Our FED is not the only central bank in the world, but here is the FED balance sheet for October 2014.   http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/current/h41.htm#h41tab1

 

Of the over 4 trillion in assets listed, Gold is 11 billion.    4500 Billion is assets (all debt) vs. 11 billion in Gold assets.   Gulp.

 

Our FEDs dealing in Gold is a pretty dusty concept.  (As in, note the gooseggs in the recent changes of holdings.)

 

The FED is 'cooking the books' by listing as assets pieces of paper printed by the US Treasury with ever more zeros painlessly printed on them.   Bonds as debt are only real assets when the debt is -real debt.'

 

US Treasury debt, in the form of zeros painlessly printed on paper bonds, is not -real debt- if it is backed only by future pieces of paper with even more zeros painlessly printed on them.

 

Debt is 'real debt' when it is backed by sound banking principles -- loans made to real people who promise to go out into the future economies and create -real- new value.

 

US Treasury debt isn't even backed by taxes on people who create value-- the debt is never paid down with taxes.  (The debt is never paid down, period.)     Us Treasury debt in the form of zeros painlessly printed on paper bonds is backed only by future Congress' boundless willingness to painlessly sign pen to paper and print even more painless zeros on paper bonds 

 

The US Treasury is printing money out of nothing by way of handing zeros on paper to the FED.  Not even debt.   Not even taxes on people who create value.   And certainly not Gold, or even, manipulations of Gold.

 

Surely that can't be?   Surely the US dollar is backed by more than Congress painlessly signing pen to paper and printing zeros on paper bonds?

 

What is a dollar?  A dollar is debt; it is an IOU for value offered.

 

It is worthless as an IOU when our government can print them in its own name willy nilly as a stealth form of national taxation.

 

This is how the new socialism in America funds itself, agreed to by both parties of power, who compete not over alternatives, but for alternating control of the gig.

 

Meanwhile, we are perseverating about the roundoff errors in the FED balance sheet..

 

regards,

Fred

 

(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 10/14, 7:18am)



Post 19

Tuesday, October 14 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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On the topic of Gold, what units is its value scored in?

 

regards,

Fred



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