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Post 0

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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I posted this (without Robert's knowledge) because it cuts to the core of the Libertarian argument that all government services can be served by the free market. Which, of course leads to the conclusion that all government is morally depraved coercion.

This core issue has led to some very silly positions I have read recently where the USA government, on being considered in all its failings and none of its glories by these self-styled paragons of social wisdom, is considered on the same level as terrorist organizations and the President of the USA is compared as morally inferior to Osama Bin Laden.

I'm very serious here because this issue is serious. 

I know that this quote is just a drop in a half-full bucket. But that kind of crap above needs to be cut out at the root.

Michael


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Post 1

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for quoting me, Michael.

Now that you've opened the door to this line of inquiry, I eagerly await the posts of the proponents of "anarcho-definition" who will help us figure out all the implications. After all, given the undeniable benefits of marketplace competition in all other goods, shouldn't intellectual values such as epistemology, logic, concept-formation and definitions also succeed or fail by the interplay of supply and demand?

Since, as anarchists argue,  the marketplace should rule over all else, well let's be consistent about it. Let's allow philosophical truth to be determined by economics, too. Let's allow sovereign consumers to "vote with their dollars" among competing offerings, in order to decide what our principles should be. Let's put the definitions of "rights," "justice," "self-defense," "aggression" and "liberty" on the auction block, to be determined -- and enforced -- by the highest bidders.


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Post 2

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 5:25pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, you're much too intelligent and much too widely read to be stooping to such pathetic straw men.  Why don't you address what the anarchists actually say?

JR


Post 3

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff R,

I think Robert B (not to speak for him) has probably already said as much on the subject
he is likely to.

I, however, have not really been following political philosophy for several years now
and may have missed some of the more recent arguments in favor of anarchism.

Could you outline, in brief, how they might go?

Jeff P.


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Post 4

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto writes:

[S]houldn't intellectual values such as epistemology, logic, concept-formation and definitions also succeed or fail by the interplay of supply and demand?

Since, as anarchists argue,  the marketplace should rule over all else, well let's be consistent about it. Let's allow philosophical truth to be determined by economics, too. Let's allow sovereign consumers to "vote with their dollars" among competing offerings, in order to decide what our principles should be. Let's put the definitions of "rights," "justice," "self-defense," "aggression" and "liberty" on the auction block, to be determined -- and enforced -- by the highest bidders.




This is actually rather interesting philosophically in its implications(!) -- even if anarchism isn't.

I tend to view pacifism, anarchism, and isolationism as concepts and ideas which are highly related. They seem to form an intellectual continuum with pacifism being the most irrational and absurd. All these ideas and ideals seem fundamentally anti-intellectual. The proponents seem to be secretly against argument and discussion per se. They always seem to defend their views with incomprehensible gobbledy-goop, and their self-confidence in such mental rot invariably seems to lie in the fact that they can always point to some other thinker(s) who posit similar views but express them with even  more sophisticated and tricky gobbledy-goop and rot.

It all seems very anti-intellectual and unserious at its core. Whenever I read an argument for anarchism -- I always seem to experience the curious phenomenon of losing interest in the discussion at the very first sentence! I'm not sure how they manage and achieve this, but they do. For me, there just isn't any intellectual meat or rational sustenance to their arguments.


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Post 5

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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"Whenever I read an argument for anarchism -- I always seem to experience the curious phenomenon of losing interest in the discussion at the very first sentence!"

I understand. I get that when I see any argument between anarchocapitalists and laissez-faire minarchists. Is there really any point in people believing in reality, rationality and self-interest to bother arguing whether the current Leviathan needs reduced 98% or 100%?


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Post 6

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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That just about explains why I haven't posted here.


Oops.............


Is there a "mother of all minarchism-anarchism debates" thread in here? So much has been posted on the 'spawns'. On a recent occasion, a very loaded Dawkins quote started the debate from the middle of the highway somewhere, then it went every which way - fundamentals, conspiracies, insults, Bush Bashing, Saddamy...

Signal-to-noise ratio people, signal-to-noise ratio!

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Post 7

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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Hold on folks,

The whole problem with communism and why it failed is because it was built on a social system that did not take man's nature into account.

I see that hardcore Libertarians wish to place all the areas of the government on the free market. They deny that there must be a final arbitrator to ensure that certain temptations in man's nature do not allow those who succumb to them force others into submitting to their own whims.

I contend that these Libertarians make the same mistake the communists did - they deny man's nature and seek to construct a social structure around a mere idea, not people.

Robert's quote eloquently highlights this facet.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 5/05, 11:31pm)


Post 8

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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"I see that hardcore Libertarians which to place the all areas of the government on the free market. They deny that there must be a final arbitrator to ensure that certain temptations in man's nature do not allow those who succumb to them force others into submitting to their own whims."

Barring that final arbiter being a god, it too will be subject to fallible human nature. Ancap or minarchy could work if everyone was 100% rational with the same values. In reality both have serious issues due to human nature. Enough irrational or evil people, and an imperfect stateless Iceland slides into a common plundering government after 300 years. Likewise, enough irrational or evil people, and an imperfect small-government constitutional republic US slides into a nanny state confiscating >25% of income in 200 years.

If either a truly just minimal state or a just stateless society are to be viable, there unfortunately needs to be a much better ratio of rational to irrational people than there are currently. I'm not certain what that ratio is; I'm optimistic enough to believe that with education it could be possible, but it's not a short walk.

Where I see the ancap/minarchy debate as a non-issue is that if such a positive mix of people ever occurs such that either system is reached, it would necessarily also be free to morph into the other. If a rationally based voluntarily-funded police/military/courts-only minarchy were achieved, it would have no grounds for stopping private arbitration agencies and security firms which themselves operate on just principles. Similarly, if a rational anarchocapitalist society was reached, there would be no just reason to stop legitimate security and arbitration firms from merging. Which system would stabilize out would simply boil down to the question of whether security and justice system are natural monopolies in a given geographical region. I don't know what that answer is, but what is relevant now is to oppose illegitimate government actions where possible and hope to educate people such that perhaps one day the question can matter.


Post 9

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 10:21pmSanction this postReply
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num++ asks:
Is there a "mother of all minarchism-anarchism debates" thread in here?
I don't think there has been a mother of all minarchism-anarchism debates thread here on SOLO.  It comes up fairly often, but not in much detail.  For instance, this article spawned some discussion:

http://solohq.com/Articles/Perigo/A_is_A;_Anarchism_is_the_Arbitrary.shtml

I was disappointed in the thread myself.  The anarchists on it seemed driven by a fantasy of not having to pay taxes instead of a strong theoretical reason for accepting anarchism.  But it shows one of the problems with having a full debate.  Quality varies.


Post 10

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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MSK writes "The whole problem with communism and why it failed is because it was built on a social system that did not take man's nature into account."

I would say that communism necessarily fails because it does not understand economics (see Mises).

"They [hardcore libertarians] deny that there must be a final arbitrator..." This is not correct. What they deny is that there must be the same single final arbitrator for all disputes. The final arbitrator in any particular case is the one whose decision is accepted in that particular case. This is in fact the situation we have now. Not every case goes to the Supreme Court.

Aaron's point about the rationality of a sufficient percentage of the society is also relevant.

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Post 11

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the link, Joseph R. Yes, that could have been the thread.

Unfortunately, Rodney R.'s essential insight [post 1] was lost early in that thread. Marc G. actually recaptured it in one paragraph of his post [49] starting with "Small competing 'protection providers'...", but the quality was irreversibly lost way before that. Your repeated attempts to get what "opt out" means for the anarchists was answered with "the marketplace will provide" (how?) or "monopoly bad" (competition of states [war] = good?) arguments that were simply incoherent.

There seems to be a mental block on how an anarchy would function in practice - there's a greater concern with being able to "opt out" than with actually living. I cannot imagine the havoc of states becoming like so many swappable t-shirts without the spectre of civil war.

May this thread fare better... much better.

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Post 12

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Hi num++,

It was a painful thread.  Until then, I had imagined that anarchism was such a strange position that people would only accept it with abstract, confusing arguments for it.  That since it flies in the face of reality, there had to be some compelling intellectual argument for why it might work in the end.  But what that thread showed me was that it's driven from fantasy, not reason.  They're emotionally convinced, not intellectually.  They are essentially saying "Under anarchism, you don't have to pay taxes, and you only have to follow the rules that you want, and nobody is allowed to do anything about it."  Of course that sounds appealing!  Just as communism sounds appealing when someone says "You don't have to work unless you want, and you still have anything and everything you desire for free".  But if we're accepting utopian fantasies as valid alternatives, almost any system of government can be made to sound good.

Since then I've come to the conclusions that nearly all the anarchists arrive at their position through emotion.  Whether it's a fantasy of freedom without the effort of achieving or maintaining it, or hatred of government in any form, or hatred of the US in particular, it doesn't really matter.  The result is the same.  If they didn't arrive at their conclusions through the use of reason, it's unlikely that reason will change their minds.


Post 13

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 6:26pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto wrote: "... Let's allow sovereign consumers to "vote with their dollars" among competing offerings, in order to decide what our principles should be. "

That is how things work.  You have your definitions and I have mine.  We live our lives -- even if of only quiet desparation -- and the "market" i.e. reality dishes out what we deserve. You can choose your actions; you cannot choose your consequences.  That moochers and looters (government) survive and prosper indicates strongly that most people in most times and places prefer government to the lack of it. 

I am reading The Anti-Federalist Papers and it is interesting to dive into the arguments against the Constitution.  It matters little whether the President is chosen by all the governors of the states or by an electoral college chosen by voters.  More basic than that is the culture of America that favors freedom.  You cannot put a price tag on that.

Call me an anarcho-anarcho-capitalist.  I believe that the free market has shown that people want government.


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Post 14

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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You're quite right, Michael.  People do not want freedom.  They want "security," which, foolishly, they think they can get from the State.

JR


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Post 15

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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Try freedom with checks and balances for essential government powers, elected executive and legislative branches, and an appeals system for the judiciary instead of foolishly espousing a total freedom that results in tribal warfare.

Michael

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Post 16

Friday, May 6, 2005 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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Rick Pasotto wrote:
MSK writes "The whole problem with communism and why it failed is because it was built on a social system that did not take man's nature into account."

I would say that communism necessarily fails because it does not understand economics (see Mises).
LOL.

Check out the implication that economics does not need to be based on man's nature (please see Mises for a rebuttal).

Michael


Edit - Shit. Had to edit to clean up a mistake. Laughing and making a mistake ain't ever gonna get it. Fuck!
(LOL)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 5/07, 5:44pm)


Post 17

Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
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Joseph R., I would say that I currently hold the position you said so succinctly in the start of your post 12:
That since it [anarcho-capitalism] flies in the face of reality, there had to be some compelling intellectual argument for why it might work in the end.
The recent spate of threads on the subject had me looking exactly for that - the compelling intellectual argument - but exasperatingly I haven't found any. The more I read on this, the more I'm coming to the same conclusion as you.

Case in point (from MEM post 13):
We live our lives... of... quiet desp[e]ration... That moochers and looters (government) survive and prosper indicates strongly that most people in most times and places prefer government to the lack of it.
This is not an intellectual argument. This is a statement of a malevolent view of the universe.

It could be the case that anyone trying to get a reality-based grip on anarchism moves along the same procession: incredulity, exasperation, rejection. I'm nearing the end of stage 2.

In deference to MSK, I'll 'hold on' to this thread to see what comes of it. I might have one more iota of persistence before I succumb to a 'malevolent view of anarcho-capitalism'.

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Post 18

Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Num++

One of the privileges/capacities of having the faculty of volition is being able to choose between good and evil. There is no guarantee that anyone will choose the good. That is not a malevolent view of the universe. That is the nature of human beings endowed with reason and volition.

But that is precisely why we need protection against those who do choose evil. The principles of such protection cannot be in the form of market practices or majority rule. They must be based on something higher than politics - i.e. they are based on ethics, which is the true basis of individual rights. (I refer to the conceptual priority hierarchy of philosophy: 1 - metaphysics, 2- epistemology, 3 - ethics, 4 - politics, 5 esthetics.)

Only a reason based ethics will allow us to identify which government powers are needed and indispensable - and what efficacious form they must take - to contain the destructive effects on individual liberty of the poor/evil choices of others.

Instead of being malevolent, this is a glorious endorsement of the power of reason. Look what the USA and other free and semi-free countries have done in a couple of centuries!

Also, the necessity of a monopoly on government powers is precisely why reason - and especially the checks and balances system for when reason fails our leaders - are so essential.

Michael

Post 19

Monday, May 9, 2005 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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MSK, I've decided to post on this subject in a new thread here to gain a more real world perspective. Hopefully the debate there (if there is one) would stick to the real world.

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