RoR: Forum

Life is not a 'plot', it is your existence

Oh?
"A plot is a purposefull progression of logically connected events leading to the resolution of a climax."
"In real life, only a process of final causation -- eg., the process of choosing a goal, then taking the steps to achieve it -- can give logical continuity, coherence and meaning to a man's actions. Only men striving to achieve a purpose can move through a meaningful series of events."
"The events of men's lives follow the logic of men's premises and values -- as one can observe if one looks past the range of the immediate moment, past the trivial irrelivancies, repetitions and routines of daily living, and sees the essentials, the turning points, the direction of a man's life. And, from that viewpoint, one can also observe that the accidents or disasters, which interfere with or defeat humans goals, asre a minor and marginal, not a major and determining, element in the course of human existence."
["Basic Principles of Literature"]
"If a man possesses volition [which he does], then the crucial aspect of his life is his choice of values -- if he chooses values, then he must act to gain and/or keep them -- if so, then he must set his goals and engage in purposeful action to achieve them. The literary form of expressing the essence of such action is the plot."
["What is Romanticism"]

Post 21

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:55pm

Rich wrote:

I'm not much into old saws, but "live every day as if it were your last" is not a bad way to go at it.

I had a friend who lived that philosophy explicitly. He died of cirrhosis of the liver at age 42. It was sad. He had some sympathies for Objectivism but remained a man of faith to the end. In addition to loving God and Neal Boortz, he also loved marijuana and cigarettes and drank vodka like water. To say he abused his body understates the situation. Amazingly, he still managed to remain a productive and respected employee at a cell phone plant until his final days.

We had a mutual friend who weighed over 600 pounds. Concerned for his health and quality of life, we eventually persuaded him to have gastric bypass surgery to help him to lose weight. The two men in question made a gentlemen's agreement that if the overweight one lost 100 pounds, the drinking one would stop drinking. The overweight one kept his side of the bargain but the drinking one did not. The overweight one attended the funeral of the drinking one -- and here the three of us had feared the overweight one would die first.

I prefer the advice of the late millionaire Charles Givens: "Buy insurance as if you will die tomorrow and invest as if you will live forever."

The family of my late friend had initially planned to keep the funeral "family only," but at the last minute decided to open it to friends. Unfortunately, they held the funeral on the same day as my September SOLO Local Club meeting. In a somewhat difficult values choice, I opted to skip the funeral and spend time with people whose values choices I considered more life-affirming. I know some will criticize this choice, but they are not I.

Post 22

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 9:09pm

Wonderful thought, Ciro.

Michael

Post 23

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 9:51pm

Muito obrigado, Michael.
Ciro.

Post 24

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 11:25pm

I sanctioned Michael's posts, excellent points. There is a difference from fearing something and being a coward.

Fear is an emotion, a strong one, that lets you know that something is terribly wrong, or something terrible is about to happen. Fear shouldn't be ignored, or suppressed. Instead, it should be taken care of. Identify what caused you to feel fear (it will probably be some sort of problem), and then solve the problem.

Some problems are difficult to solve, like cancer and other problems that cause our bodies to have a non-infinite expected mean-time to failure. There are also some problems that greatly reduce a person's ability to live an enjoyable life.

After you learn about these problems, maybe "fear" isn't the emotion you would feel anymore. Or at least, the fear is a more abstract long term one, generated by your uncertainty that a particular problem will be solved. If you value your life, you may feel an emotion of urgency, an urgency to solve these problems.

I do fear my death, and the destruction of those and that which I value. Of course, fear isn't my only emotion, and rarely is it anywhere near the strongest. Haha, and in fact, I do not expect to die-- less some people in Iran get their way.

Post 25

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 7:31am

Robert Malcolm, absolutely nothing you say or quote, no fancy little saying or metaphor will ever make me want to die, so why don't you save us both some time and just stop trying to convince me that I should *want* to die in order to, in some twisted way, give my life meaning. If you agree to do so I will agree to stop trying to make you want to live. What a sad and pathetic disagreement. I might as well be arguing with some Catholic who thinks it evil to not want to die or some altruist who feels it is his moral duty to sacrifice his life because of some lame principle.

Besides, absolute nothing you quote suggests one should die to give life meaning, your logic is flawed. Everyone of those quotes suggests the importance of goals and striving toward the goals in your life. My life is full of goals, some probably irrationally ambitious, but no goal of mine includes dying, least of all so my life will subscribe some abstract metaphor. One of those goals is to defeat aging and live indefinately.

A plot is indeed a purposefull progression leading to a climax, but I do not agree, obviously, that life is a plot (that is one particular plot with one particular climax after which you must die to complete the plot)

Let's look at your chain of reasoning

Life is a plot
plots have ends
plots are a series of progressions toward a climax
there fore life is a series of progressions toward a climax
and life must end, so it can be a plot.

feh, what kind of crazy reasoning is this? Obviously I disagree with your premise "life is a plot" and therefore it's conclusion, that it must end.

Instead how about considering life a continual series of progressions?

Michael F Dickey

Post 26

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 9:26am

I wonder why so many fear death even though they never died!
Benedetto Croce

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/29, 9:36am)

Post 27

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 10:34am

Dean:Fear is an emotion, a strong one, that lets you know that something is terribly wrong, or something terrible is about to happen. Fear shouldn't be ignored, or suppressed. Instead, it should be taken care of.

Dean, how,? by thinking that you are going to die?

Post 28

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 11:09am

That is his fallacy, Summer - if one is not 'fighting' death, or merely accepts it as an aspect of reality, then one is 'pro-death'... the same mistaken viewing that was on the other thread, the one mentioned... so in that living, as Rand pointed out, one's life is like a plot - purposeful, goal directed, and one of one's own making...

Post 29

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 11:49am

I have no beef with the attempt to gain immortality, if possible. Go For It!
Personally, I think it's an attempt on the scale of creating perpetual motion or turning lead into gold.

To what extent should one love life? Should one never sleep? Isn't sleep taking time away from living life and experiencing the world (think Hank Reardon forcing himself to continue in the face of extreme fatigue.) Are we going to eradicate sleep next? Then vacations, and naps?

Post 30

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 12:22pm

That is his fallacy, Summer - if one is not 'fighting' death, or merely accepts it as an aspect of reality, then one is 'pro-death'...

Robert Malcolm, I have never once said or even remotely indiciated that if one is not doing everything they can to fight death than they are 'pro death' I am attacking absurdist attitudes like yours, and the others illustrated in that thread, that suggest death gives meaning to life, that the destruction of the capacity to value is somehow a good thing.

I have stated instead that by accepting death as a natural part of things or the way things are supposed to be or the end which gives the beginning meaning, or that life is a plot and must have an end, or whatever other nonsense you people, who are 'pro death' feel they must delude themselves with, then you are sabatouging any desire to ever *do anything* about death. Attitudes like that, a philosophical acceptance of death, are a primary reason why so little has been done to conquer aging.

I have stated repeatedly that once someone disavows themselves of the premise of accepting death, than whatever else they might want to do follows naturally. Some people might want to spend their whole life fighting aging and disease, others might contribute a little time and effort to organizations dedicated specifically to that goal, while still others recognize it would be a nice thing but are content in doing nothing about it. That is thier choice, none of these people are 'pro death', even the ones who do nothing to stop aging and disease. It is the people who think death gives meaning to life who are pro-death, who in fact *want* to die. People like you.

You obviously have a splendid gift for misinterpreting me or are doing it intentionally for no reason I would ever care to understand.

Michael F Dickey

Post 31

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 12:28pm

"I wonder why so many fear death even though they never died!"

I also fear being stabbed though I have never been stabbed, and shot, and getting cancer, etc etc. Because we fear these things we act to make them less likely, by avoiding bar fights, ghetto's, smoking and over eating.

This is a cousin of the 'you cant truly value something until you lost it' pro-death argument, e.g. you cant truly value freedom until you are imprisoned or health until you are sick. This is rubbish on two parts, first intelligent rational beings can emulate a scenerio with enough accuracy without having to go through that situation to know it is desirable to avoid it. Second all of those examples pre-suppose the capacity for perception remains in tact. Since you no longer exist when you die, it can not possibly give you an alternative state of perception that will make you value the living state more. You will not be able to think 'ah, so this is what death is like' because you will not be.

Michael F Dickey

Post 32

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 12:35pm

"Personally, I think it's an attempt on the scale of creating perpetual motion or turning lead into gold"

The laws of physics forbid the existence of perpetual motion machines of the type I am sure you are alluding to, no laws of physics forbid the concept of indefinate life spans. Lead can be turned into gold by bombarding lead with protons.

This attitude, I think is a cousin of the 'no matter how hard I try I could never possibly accomplish this' is still something I find strange to be coming from objectivists. It is also a defeatist attitude that justifies in action and absolves one self of the responsibility to have to act to further their highest value, their life. It is one thing to acknowledge a preference for living indefinately but choose not to pursue achieving it (or contrubuting to organizations that would make it more likely) but it is entirely another thing to presume it always to be impossible and thus never act to forward it. Men once said flying was impossible.

Personally, I have no idea if it is possible, but no laws of physics forbid it. Like most of the projects I undertake I do not wait to prove it to myself that I can in fact accomplish it, I just presume I could and act on that, always working my way toward my goals.

Michael F Dickey

Post 33

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 12:47pm

I was referring to the alchemist attempt to turn lead into gold. I did not know it was possible by proton bombardment.
I need to get me some lead and protons and do some bombarding!

Re:Indefinate lifespans: " But no laws of physics forbid it."

Is that true? (Seriously, I don't know)...What about entropy? And even if an individual is sustained by cellular regeneration, doesn't that presume that those cells are replacing dead ones?

"'This attitude, I think is a cousin of the 'no matter how hard I try I could never possibly accomplish this'"is still something I find strange to be coming from objectivists."

I don't think the attitude is what you describe; I think that most Objectivist would put the attempt into the category of "perpetual motion" or "platonic worlds of ideals." And when the oldest person alive usually happens to be little more than a century, I think it's fair that most Objectivists are being true to reality as known. But if it can be done, REALLY done...all I can say is GO FOR IT!
Just going to take a LOT of convincing, is all...(And I don't want to be 200 years old and unable to wipe my own butt...it better be a GOOD lifespan!).

Post 34

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 1:43pm

no laws of physics forbid the concept of indefinate life spans

Except reality - only the universe exist indefinitely, as all within it alters and/or changes - ceases to exist as such or 'comes to an end' as it were... so why should life be the exception...

As for changing lead into gold - so true, at a cost greater than the results...

Post 35

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 1:48pm

I think that the bottom line is that, however you take it on as an individual, the attitude about death has to be a healthy one. Not denial, not resignation, not fear. That death is part of the cycle. It's interesting how old people are looked at as being compromised, weaker. In some respects yes, but they also acquire wisdom- their consciousness is very different. The way they look at the past (and the future) is different. Often, it is healthier than that of a younger person.

Post 36

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 2:21pm

Having had several life-threatening health problems, I have experience fear of death. I didn't choose to invoke this emotion. It showed up as I heard the words, "thyroid cancer." My response however, was something humorous to the effect that cancer is just another word for growth. (The doc liked that one.) After discussing the options and scheduling surgery, my spirits lifted and the fear started to subside. I beat the cancer and even though it could return, I face each day with eagerness. My point? Fear happens. Now get over it and march on.

Post 37

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 6:06pm

Re:Indefinate lifespans: " But no laws of physics forbid it."
Is that true? (Seriously, I don't know)...What about entropy? And even if an individual is sustained by cellular regeneration, doesn't that presume that those cells are replacing dead ones?

No laws forbid it. The human body is a type of machine, with many complicated parts. All we have to do to live indefinitely is keep the parts in good condition and have backup parts and replication to take care of failures.

Yes, there are a lot of parts. Yes, we do not know how some of them work yet, or how to fix them when they break... etc. But I think just as the mechanic keeps his 1920 automobile in good running condition through time-- so too can we keep our bodies in good running condition. We just have to figure out how the parts work, fix em up, and improve them.

That crap about "entropy" is just that-- crap. How do you think the human genome can survive through generations, despite this "entropy"? Because its been built to last, and is self repairing and regenerating. Unfortunately, evolution doesn't require or even much benefit from individuals live indefinitely. So we have to upgrade and design ourselves.

Post 38

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 6:51pm

Dean: "How do you think the human genome can survive through generations, despite this "entropy"? Because its been built to last, and is self repairing and regenerating."

I honestly don't know, not being a genetisist. I was under the pressure that the individual genes were reproduced, not that particular genes have existed throughout time. Self regenerating but not everlasting, I though...

Post 39

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 6:47am