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Post 20

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 3:17amSanction this postReply
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Amazing.

I'm replacing the entire quote with something one far more relevant.


Post 21

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

"I frankly don't care if you ever submit another word."

Considering Manfred's contributions to RoR and to Ayn Rand over many years, first rate in my opinion, your statement is astonishing. It is the most egregious, willfully ignorant and depraved statement I've seen on this site, that includes it's existence as SoloHQ.

I'll check back in a few months, hopefully you'll be gone.

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Post 22

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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Boohoo.

Bye.


Post 23

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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Terresa,

I think you are reacting as if Manfred were being hostile or dishonest. I think he honestly didn't understand about the red quote marks or the points you were making. I see no intent on his part to take credit for Rand's quote. It did need to be changed, no question, but it never should have become such an angry thread over an honest mistake by normally very well-mannered member.

And if I may point out, you shouldn't change a quote to an entirely different quote, while leaving Manfred's name as the submitter. Now it looks like he submitted that Ayn Rand quote, but he didn't and that is a different kind of misrepresentation.

I don't think any of this would have become such a big deal if it were handled with more civility and an understanding that English isn't his first language. Of course there is the RoR tendency to be argumentative - which I'm as guilty of as the next person :-)

Post 24

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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I would agree that the quote change is unwarranted. However, Steve, you have to look at exactly who took this into the realm of the uncivil. Teresa is probably overreacting, but I'm getting the impression that its out of being called a liar, crude, and thoughtless. I'll leave out reactive because that assessment is just ignorant, as opposed to just plain wrong. Since it was a blanket statement aimed at all disagreement I'm a little pissed about it too. Not to mention that in his first post, Manfred went to all caps, and everyone here knows that is widely considered to indicate shouting. I would generally accept that a single word or two is simply applying emphasis, but the entire sentence followed by 3 exclamation points in post 4 pretty clearly indicates to me who made this personal pretty fast. This was at the point of debate where I was taking steps to assure Manfred in every post that I believed his actual thinking behind the post was correct. The ESL is valid only in that both Ted and myself misunderstood what Manfred was saying. We have both since apologized for that misunderstanding. ESL doesn't have a damn thing to do with calling someone a liar or shouting in text format. Which is exactly what Manfred did when he contradicted Teresa on the number of people that contacted her about this. I also assume Mike is a native english speaker, and he went way over the line from jump.
Every attempt was made to remain civil during this discussion. Manfred simply wasn't of the mind to keep it there apparently, certainly not after Mike decided to add fuel to the fire. 


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Post 25

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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You know, Steve, if I struggled with German, the last thing I would do is get defensive with people who were fluent with the language over an error I made.  People who were just trying to help. 

I'd say "woops! Sorry! I get it now. Thanks for pointing it out."  I'd be honest and acknowledge my mistake. If I didn't get it, I'd ask that someone please explain, because that's what honest people do. I wouldn't insult members and staff trying to correct the problem, and threaten them with flouncing off for not getting my way.

But that's just me. The error started out honest enough, but it didn't end that way. Not in my view.   

And if I may point out, you shouldn't change a quote to an entirely different quote, while leaving Manfred's name as the submitter. Now it looks like he submitted that Ayn Rand quote, but he didn't and that is a different kind of misrepresentation.

Christ, you're right about that.  There was nothing confusing about the original quote at all (because I do happen to have a few of Rand's books around, despite Manfred's insulting implication that I do not, I looked it up):

"'Isn't it desirable that the aged should have medical care in times of illness?' its advocates clamor. Considered out of context, the answer would be: yes, it is desirable. Who would have a reason to say no?"
 
Seriously, does this really need any interpretation or alteration to be understood by people who admire Rand? Even by people just starting to read Rand? The continued, and deliberate, obfuscation just tipped me over at 6am. Frustrated by what I can only describe as irrational stubbornness, I changed the whole quote. 

I ran out of "nice" on Monday. New supply due in by Halloween.  



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Post 26

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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I deleted the whole quote. Gone. If anyone wants to add a new quote, feel free.

I do agree that the original quote was added incorrectly. The big red quote bubbles implies everything in them is to be attributed to the source. If someone wants to add comments, it needs to go into a forum post. That's not just the way it happens to work. That's the intent. Anything else would create confusion by appearing to attribute something to the source that wasn't said by them.

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Post 27

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 5:05pmSanction this postReply
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Glad that's over...

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Post 28

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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I suggest everyone just blame me. My boyfriend does it. The guy on the crosstown bus does it. My parents do it.

That CD stuck in the SUV that only plays "Wichita Lineman"? That's my fault.

Get this. I went on a two week vacation. I was on an out-of-state vacation for two weeks. On the tenth day of my absence my landlord left me a voice mail complaining that I had crapped on top of the toilet seat the night before but not cleaned it up. Of course my roommates couldn't have done it. They even said they didn't.

Everyone does it. I don't care. So blame me.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/16, 5:42pm)


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Post 29

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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It's all your fault, Ted.

Post 30

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
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was this all a try-out session for the next "Much Ado About Nothing" play?

Post 31

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Nah, I made the first post. I guess its me. I promise guys, next time I see some kind of obvious bad attribution or easily correctable error I'll just go slam my head in a car door until it makes sense.

Post 32

Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Maybe, Ryan, but only by twenty-one minutes. And did you follow the link I posted? MS knows very well how the quote function works. He has quoted himself here at Rebirth of Reason six times. Then some of those quotes have shown up at wikiquote with this website as the cited source.

The problem is that if Rebirth of Reason is going to be used as a reference source on other websites, it has to maintain credibility. The fact that a misattribution should be obvious to us doesn't make it any less a misattribution. The solution was simple, either remove the prolog or change the attribution. MS has commented here on this very thread, so he couldn't very well say he didn't know where to add his comments if he removed them from the quote itself. And there was no attempt at censorship by anyone. No one complained about the content or suggested a vote to decide whether to censor it by collective action.

The blame is all mine. Please don't try to deflect it.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/16, 6:57pm)


Post 33

Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 12:23amSanction this postReply
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Ted: The way you insist - now already in two posts of yours - in calling attention to my six quotes (quotes I designed by myself, one of them coming from my book "Ayn Rand, I and the Universe") sounds as if you found fault in my having published the quotes in Rebirth of Reason. Yes, some people that are not members of RoR even published them in Wikiquote and if you were to enter "Manfred F. Schieder" at Google you would find my quotes cited in different languages and in many countries. I really can't see any fault neither in my presenting them to the readers nor in other people using them for their own Webs and Blogs. One of my quotes has been even taken over by the Prosecuting Attorney of the Clark County, USA webpage.

I've noticed that RoR carries 9 quotes from you yourself. Is this also a fault? If so, why should it be so? This insisting on mentioning my quotes as if publishing them were a fault makes me wonder why do you insist in calling the readers attention to them. Well, if it's to call the reader's attention to them to promote what I say, thank you so much. But if that's not the reason, then I'm truly mystified.

(Edited by Manfred F. Schieder on 9/17, 5:45am)


Post 34

Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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I am sorry, Manfred, I thought you had left, or I would have addressed you directly.

I suggest you read what I wrote, I already answered your questions.

The only problem for RoR is your bizarre inability to understand that a quote of you quoting Ayn Rand is not a quote of Ayn Rand.

Your envy regarding your six compared to my nine is your personal issue, I suggest you take it up with your therapist..

You could have fixed this easily, and in so many ways, but blaming Teresa is not one of them.

But feel free to blame me.

Post 35

Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 9:38pmSanction this postReply
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"It's all your fault, Ted."

-TSI




(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/26, 9:40pm)


Post 36

Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 10:59pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, wow!

<g>

Now that you and Steve are probably moving in on six.... lol!


Post 37

Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 1:13amSanction this postReply
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Ted: I am taking this up for one last more time, since I've seen that now additional posts were added after your message (Post 34). I will merely add my comment to your very  uncivilized:

"Your envy regarding your six compared to my nine is your personal issue, I suggest you take it up with your therapist.."
You should have checked the Internet before saying this since my quotes have been taken up and added to many websites and blogs -which speaks for itself in what refers to their importance and popularity - while of your quotes none, not even one, was added to another webite or blog. I only mentioned your "six" because you mentioned my in the Internet internationally accepted quotes in a derisive manner. Civilizedly you had neither a right nor a motive to do so, excepting, of course, the evident envy you evidenced yourself in your messages. This puts the weight of having to take it up with a therapist on your shoulders, not on mine, but as I said, we should now leave it at that. I haven't any longer any interest to carry this on.

Roper: This too just (as mentioned above) because the thread was followed by further posts. No intension whatsoever to follow this up endlessly. Your first message (Post 0) mentioned:

"Rand didn't say this in the work given (even if its true). Manfred F. Schieder said it by way of heavily borrowing from another's text and making minute alterations. YOU are the one quoted here."
You wrote this in the heat of dislike. You should have first looked up if any part of the quote I had added DID came from any of Rand's writings (I gave sufficient proof that it did) to then say: "The quote comes from Rand's writings, but Manfred prefaced it with a notice - placed between brackets - to inform the reader what he had to take into consideration when reading it. Manfred shouldn't have done this in view of the RoR mode of how quotes must be mentioned, but have placed his comments in a "Forum - Quotes" message added."

While I had thought of doing this before I added the quote with my preface, I then thought that it would be useless to proceed thus, for if those who read the quote didn't look at the "Comments" they wouldn't have noticed what had to be taken into consideration when reading Rand's quote.

Saying "Manfred F. Schieder said it by way of heavily borrowing from another's text and making minute alterations" was lacking every sense, since I neither "heavily borrowed from another's text", made no alterations to it nor wrote my preface by taking up someone else's style. I merely added the preface the way I write and then presented Rand's words in her own "style".

But it's no longer necessary to take this whole story up again.

While I know that there are quite a lot of people at RoR who like what I write (Mike Erickson is a very worthwhile example of this), there are also very many who greatly dislike ANYTHING I write, and the forums provide ample testimony to this. Teresa's words ("I frankly don't care if you ever submit another word") state this with utter clarity. Further on, she also stated: "I'll be forced to verify pretty much everything you submit from now on." It's a fact that since I write articles - somewhere else I mentioned already that I supplied them to newspapers, magazines, etc., all of them very prone to censor writings -  NONE of my articles were ever censored in any way whatsoever: they have always been published them without changing, adding or deleting anything. So, should Rebirth of Reason want me to continue supplying my articles, the person who uttered this what I read as being a menace of "verifying" what I might supply, will have to make void of what she said. All Rebirth of Reason can do in relation with my articles is to decide whether to publish them as I supply them or leave them unpublished. This will mean no offense on my side nor bad manners but merely correspond to RoR decision of what is to be published and what not. But this decision depends, of course, on whether RoR wants me to continue supplying my writings.

So much said, I will now leave the theme at rest.


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Post 38

Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
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Please feel free to. I already apologized for misinterpreting the degree of error in the quote, if you bothered to read posts instead of going crazy with the caps lock and apparently obsessing over this for days you might have noted that. As to my dislike, I generally don't take effort to inform people that I dislike that their overall idea was correct. I didn't even know you at post 0. It's possible to misread someone's phrasing due to a language barrier and also notice a glaring misattribution without disliking them. Although the acting like a petulant child obsessing over a simple "whoops" correction isn't helping the dislike factor, since it's apparently important enough for you to mention a week after thread-death.

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Post 39

Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
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Yes, Manfred, you controls the spice.



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