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Post 40

Friday, August 27, 2010 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
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What I thought you were referring to by "offsetting fatty meat" is offsetting its effects on heart disease and cancer -- its effects on serum cholesterol and the risk for breast and prostate cancer -- which, if you recall, was the context in which I raised the question. I do understand that you can offset the acid-forming ...
Jesus Christ, Bill. Read the damn links I provide. In this case, the link I provided in the post directly above yours (to which you are responding) directly addresses your concern. When you crunch the numbers, meat intake is offset by plant intake, among other things (e.g., fish intake).

In light of publically-available scientific evidence (you know, that stuff I keep referencing to), it is arbitrary to blame fatty meat for heart disease and cancer (without controlling for the intake of plants and fish and even carbohydrates).

Ed


Post 41

Friday, August 27, 2010 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, Ed, I read it. Interesting, but it's only one study, and I would be cautious about relying too heavily on it, in view of all the other evidence implicating a high-fat diet with heart disease and cancer. Nor do I think that omega-3 fats are a panacea that can negate the effects of a high-fat diet. I would also wonder just how much meat and fat were being consumed in these various groups. There may be a limit on how much you can eat even with an increased fruit and vegetable consumption.

I think more definitive studies and more evidence are needed to confirm the theory that you can eat as much meat and fat as you want as long as you increase your fruits and vegetables.

Just curious, how does the medical community view this information and the theory that you're advancing? Are they on board with it? Or is it a fringe view that's not widely accepted?


Post 42

Friday, August 27, 2010 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, Ed, I read it. Interesting, but it's only one study, ...

Okay, here's a review of several other studies (in relation to colo-rectal cancer, or CRC):

MAIN MESSAGE: Whether red meat is a culprit in causing CRC remains unanswered, although any effect it might have is likely moderate and related to processing or cooking. ...

CONCLUSION: Before dispensing dietary advice, physicians should understand the potential benefits and harm of specific components of various foods. People might be able to reduce their risk of CRC by increasing their vitamin and mineral levels through eating more vegetables and fruit.  ...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18000268
 
And there's much more where that came from.
 
Ed


Post 43

Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
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Here's a "systematic review" on kidney cancer ...
*****************************
We observed statistically significant positive associations or trends in pooled age-adjusted models for intakes of total fat, saturated fat, monounsaturated fat, polyunsaturated fat, cholesterol, total protein, and animal protein. However, these associations were attenuated and no longer statistically significant after adjusting for body mass index, fruit and vegetable intake, and alcohol intake.
*****************************

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19033572


one on pancreatic cancer ...
*****************************
The prudent pattern was characterized by high fruit and vegetable intake; the western pattern was characterized by high meat and high fat intakes. ...

After adjustment for potential confounders, including smoking, body mass index, physical activity, multivitamin use, height, history of diabetes, and caloric intake, the relative risks associated with a prudent pattern among the men increased slightly (RR = 1.88, 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.06 to 3.32, for highest versus lowest quintile.
*****************************
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/97/7/518?view=long&pmid=15812077#TBL2


Important note:
Men with lower meat/total fat intake had an 88% higher risk of pancreatic cancer. This wasn't found among the women in the studies.

It deserves mention that pancreatic cancer doesn't have a high background(baseline) incidence. What this means is that the near-doubling of incidence isn't a really big jump in total number pancreatic cancer cases. But offsetting this is the fact that pancreatic cancer is so lethal to begin with (so that any small increase in numbers is really, really bad).



and one on prostate cancer ...
*****************************
In a review of more than 20 studies, six cohort studies demonstrated an increased risk, and two cohort studies reported a decreased risk, of PC (Kolonel, 2001). One cohort study of 51 529 men reported an increased risk of metastatic PC with red meat (Michaud et al., 2001). However, two other cohort studies found no significant association between the intake of total meat and the incidence of PC (Park et al., 2007a; Rohrmann et al., 2007).
*****************************
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-277X.2009.00946.x/full


Note: Authors above cite the Michaud et al. study as a key study where non-charred red meat increased metastasis of prostate cancer, but the Michaud study results were actually equivocal:

*****************************
RESULTS: Intakes of total meat, red meat, and dairy products were not associated with risk of total or advanced prostate cancer. An elevated risk for metastatic prostate cancer was observed with intake of red meat (relative risk (RR)= 1.6 for top vs. bottom quintile comparison, 95% confidence interval (CI) = 1.0-2.5); this association was slightly attenuated after controlling for saturated and alpha-linolenic fatty acids (RR = 1.5, 95% CI = 0.88-2.5).
*****************************
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11519764


Can you massage the data any harder than that?

You can't have a confidence interval include 'unity' (RR = 1.0; a totally null effect) and still say that it tells you something. On top of this, the authors say the risk was "slightly attenuated" after controlling for certain fats ... and then they go on to cite a statistically-insignificant confidence interval!

Slight attenuation? Give me a break! What a scientific farce. Well, we didn't find any significant findings and, on top of that, when we adjusted for variables, our findings got even more insignificant!

Go figure.

I cannot believe that this passes for science. A bunch of hippie, peace-nik, meat-haters using statistically insignificant ("null") findings to confirm their pet theories??? I mean, what's next, not even investigating your own hypotheses?!:

New Liberal Scientist of our Near Future:
"Look people, we didn't even investigate our hypothesis and guess what we found? Well ... we found evidence that our hypothesis is supported by the data!"

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/28, 12:07pm)


Post 44

Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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And here is a review of 11 studies directly addressing breast cancer:

********************
In the meta-analysis that included data reported in the Pooling Project publication of prospective cohorts (n 8) and subsequent publications of cohort studies (n 3), no significant association was observed comparing the highest category of animal fat intake with the lowest (SRRE 1.03; 95 % CI: 0.76, 1.40). Similarly, no significant association between a 5 % increment of energy from animal fat intake and breast cancer (SRRE 1.02; 95 % CI 0.97, 1.07) was observed in the meta-analysis of these studies.
********************
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20181297


Recap:
Fatty meat intake was not significantly associated with breast cancer.


Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/28, 12:07pm)


Post 45

Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
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And here is a "systematic" review directly addressing heart disease:

***********************
Strong evidence supports valid associations (4 criteria satisfied) of protective factors, including intake of vegetables, nuts, and "Mediterranean" and high-quality dietary patterns with CHD, and associations of harmful factors, including intake of trans-fatty acids and foods with a high glycemic index or load. Among studies of higher methodologic quality, there was also strong evidence for monounsaturated fatty acids and "prudent" and "western" dietary patterns. Moderate evidence (3 criteria) of associations exists for intake of fish, marine omega-3 fatty acids, folate, whole grains, dietary vitamins E and C, beta carotene, alcohol, fruit, and fiber. Insufficient evidence (< or =2 criteria) of association is present for intake of supplementary vitamin E and ascorbic acid (vitamin C); saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids; total fat; alpha-linolenic acid; meat; eggs; and milk.
************************
Mente A, de Koning L, Shannon HS, Anand SS. A systematic review of the evidence supporting a causal link between dietary factors and coronary heart disease. Arch Intern Med. 2009 Apr 13;169(7):659-69.

See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19364995

or:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/169/7/659


Recap:
There is strong evidence to support the idea that eating vegetables, nuts, and a high-fat "Mediterranean" diet protects you from heart disease.

There is strong evidence to support the idea that eating trans-fatty acids and lots of carbohydrates puts you at risk for heart disease.

There is not strong evidence (not even moderate evidence) that just taking any kind of vitamin E or vitamin C pill does anything to protect you from heart disease.

There is not strong evidence (not even moderate evidence) that watching your saturated fat intake, total fat intake, meat intake, or egg intake does anything to protect you from heart disease.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/28, 12:08pm)


Post 46

Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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This last study is especially special because it analyzes the very epistemology of findings and how they relate to association and causation.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the study, it is a good read from a strictly philosophical point of view. Here is an example:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content-nw/full/169/7/659/IRA80010T1

Ed

Post 47

Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Again, these studies don't specify the amount of fat in the lower and higher fat diets. To make any kind of a significant difference, the fat has to be very low -- something on the order of the Pritikin or Ornish diet.


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Post 48

Sunday, August 29, 2010 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Earlier, you argued that paleo-friendly diets are unlikely to be followed correctly because of all the work that one must go to in order to procure ample supplies of meat without excess fat. You argued that the merit should be judged by whether a whole lot of folks will have the temerity to follow up like they should.

Then, now, you come on here and discount the latest scientific advancements in the subject of nutrition and human health by saying that the low-fat folks tested weren't low enough.

So, when it comes to the paleo-friendly diets, you say people won't go to the work to follow them correctly. But, when it comes to the Pritikin diet -- which involves Draconian restriction of fat more restrictive than all usual clinical trials -- well, somehow these same people will dig down deep inside of themselves and find the individual will power to make the tough changes to cut fat more than investigators were willing or able to do with their study subjects.

You can't have it both ways.

Ed

p.s. You sound like an apologist for communism who -- when presented with empirical evidence that communism didn't work in several human trials -- who then complains that "not enough communism" was implemented (asking us to trust that if we ignore results and press-on for even more communism, then we'll get the Utopia we expect).
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/29, 2:18pm)


Post 49

Monday, August 30, 2010 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote,
Earlier, you argued that paleo-friendly diets are unlikely to be followed correctly because of all the work that one must go to in order to procure ample supplies of meat without excess fat. You argued that the merit should be judged by whether a whole lot of folks will have the temerity to follow up like they should.
Where did I argue that, Ed? What I said is that you simply can't get the kind of meat that early man had available -- with the amount and kind of fat that existed in the paleolithic era. Do you dispute that?
Then, now, you come on here and discount the latest scientific advancements in the subject of nutrition and human health by saying that the low-fat folks tested weren't low enough.
The burden of proof is on you. Show me the evidence to indicate that the Pritikin and Ornish diets don't improve one's cardiovascular risk -- don't reverse atherosclerosis and don't differ from the higher fat diets in their effects on heart disease. Your studies don't show this. I've made this point before, but you keep ignoring it.
So, when it comes to the paleo-friendly diets, you say people won't go to the work to follow them correctly. But, when it comes to the Pritikin diet -- which involves Draconian restriction of fat more restrictive than all usual clinical trials -- well, somehow these same people will dig down deep inside of themselves and find the individual will power to make the tough changes to cut fat more than investigators were willing or able to do with their study subjects.
I had to laugh when I read this. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! In fact, of course, I don't say that the paleo diet is difficult to follow. I say that it's impossible to follow, because you simply can't get the kind of meat today that was available in the paleolithic era. Meat today is much higher in fat, and the fatty composition is different. By the way, Ed, still eating those juicy hamburgers? Think they're part of the paleo diet? What is called the "paleolithic diet" by its current practitioners is not the diet of paleolithic man. It is at best a pale imitation.

And as far as having the "will power" to follow the Pritikin diet, I've been on it for the better part of 25 years. If it's so hard to follow, why have I been able to do it? And why have lots of other people? Once you get accustomed to it, it's a piece of cake (bad metaphor!). And once you see the improvement in your health, you'll stay on it for life! :-)


Post 50

Monday, August 30, 2010 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I'll let Loren Cordain answer you:
Q: I wanted to ask you why it is that you discourage saturated fats in the paleo diet? From what I have read their are healthy saturated fats from coconuts that are used for around 17% of the Kitavan diet. Also, what about tubers such as sweet potato and yam, do you think that consuming these in moderate portions (small enough to keep a low glycemic load) could be detrimental?

A. ... In summary, high total cholesterol or LDL levels do not increase CVD risk but rather oxidized LDL. To produce oxidized LDL we need the factors mentioned above. Hence, consumption of saturated fatty acids is not an issue if we control several other factors such as those mentioned before.

Dr. Cordain wrote a book chapter where he shows that saturated fat consumption in ancient hunter-gatherer populations were usually above recommended 10% (American Heart Association) of energy from saturated fats yet non atherogenic.

The bottom line is that we do not recommend cutting down saturated fatty acid intake but rather decrease high-glycemic load foods, vegetable oils, refined sugars, grains, legumes and dairy.

For more information, please read Dr. Cordain's paper: Dietary Fat Quality and Coronary Heart Disease Prevention: A Unified Theory Based on Evolutionary, Historical, Global, and Modern Perspectives.

Return to Top

Q: Doesn't a meat-based diet like our Stone Age ancestors promote high blood cholesterol and heart disease?

A: The fat quality and quantity in the wild animals our Stone Age ancestors ate was vastly different from the types and quantity of fat found in the fatty meats typically consumed in the US. A 100-gram serving of roast buffalo contains only 2.4 grams of fat, and 0.9 g of saturated fat, whereas a 100-gram, T-bone beefsteak contains a whopping 23 grams of fat, and 9 grams of artery clogging saturated fat. Additionally, the bison roast contains 215 mg of heart-healthy, omega-3 fatty acids whereas the T-bone steak contains a paltry 46 mg. The types of meats permitted on The Paleo Diet are lean meats (beef, pork, poultry, fish, seafood) trimmed of visible fat. These meats are healthful because they have nutritional characteristics similar to wild animals.

Recent clinical studies have shown that lean protein-based diets are more effective in improving blood cholesterol and other blood lipid levels than are low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets. High protein diets have also been shown to lower blood homocysteine levels, another risk factor for heart disease. When nutritionists abandoned meats as part of heart-healthy diets, they unknowingly threw out the baby with the bath water.

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/faqs/#Fats

Now, will you please let Dean Ornish answer me (or are you unable/unwilling to return the favor)?

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/30, 12:22pm)


Post 51

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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Here is an introductory article which shows that nutrition is a balance:

http://health.msn.com/nutrition/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100262309>1=31036

Ed

Post 52

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You make my argument for me, for as you say:
The fat quality and quantity in the wild animals our Stone Age ancestors ate was vastly different from the types and quantity of fat found in the fatty meats typically consumed in the US. A 100-gram serving of roast buffalo contains only 2.4 grams of fat, and 0.9 g of saturated fat, whereas a 100-gram, T-bone beefsteak contains a whopping 23 grams of fat, and 9 grams of artery clogging saturated fat.
So, let us see what percentage of total calories are fat in this example of stone-age meat. There are 9 calories per gram of fat and 4 calories per gram of protein and carbohydrate. So that means that the calories from fat in this 100 gram portion of buffalo meat are 2.4 x 9 or 21.6, and the remaining calories (from protein) are 97.6 x 4 or 390.4. Thus, we see that the total calories in this 100 gram portion are 412, of which only 21.6 are fat. That means that the percent of total calories as fat is 21.6/412 or 5.24%. Keep that figure firmly in mind.
Additionally, the bison roast contains 215 mg of heart-healthy, omega-3 fatty acids whereas the T-bone steak contains a paltry 46 mg.
Precisely! But then you say,
The types of meats permitted on The Paleo Diet are lean meats (beef, pork, poultry, fish, seafood) trimmed of visible fat. These meats are healthful because they have nutritional characteristics similar to wild animals.
Do they? I don't think so. I was at the supermarket today, and the leanest beef I could find was 96% fat free, 4 ounces of which contained 150 calories, of which 40 were fat. That means that 27% of the calories were from fat, compared to just over 5% for the bison. So, the leanest beef available at the supermarket had over 5 times the percent of fat calories as the meat our Stone Age ancestors consumed, which is precisely my point. Even the leanest meat available today doesn't come close to matching the meat available during the Paleolithic era.
Recent clinical studies have shown that lean protein-based diets are more effective in improving blood cholesterol and other blood lipid levels than are low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets.
Doesn't that depend on how low the low-fat diets were and on what kind of carbohydrates were included in the high-carbohydrate diets? On the low-fat, high-carbohydrate Pritikin diet, I lowered my cholesterol from 250 to 120 mg/dL. Pritikin lowered his from 350 to 120. And many other people have had similarly dramatic reductions in their cholesterol. I can virtually guarantee that you won't get those kind of results from the diet you advocate.
High protein diets have also been shown to lower blood homocysteine levels, another risk factor for heart disease.
Oh, really? Then how do you explain the following conclusions from a study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (Vol. 82, No. 3, 553-558, September 2005)? "In conclusion, compared with a high-carbohydrate diet, a high-protein diet raises tHcy [homocysteine] concentrations throughout the day, both acutely and after 1 wk of habituation. Fasting tHcy concentrations are not affected by a high-protein diet. As we previously showed, the extent of the postprandial rise in tHcy is likely to be modified by the amino acid composition of the protein diet. The clinical relevance of our finding depends on whether high concentrations of tHcy—in particular, high postprandial concentrations—do indeed cause CVD. If so, it might be important to avoid excessive protein intake." [Emphasis added]

I agree with you that polyunsaturated vegetable oils contribute to the oxidation of LDL cholesterol, which is one reason they're excluded from the Pritikin diet. Refined sugars are also excluded, as well as such things as honey, brown sugar, syrup, molasses and high-fructose corn syrup. But whole grains have been show to contain antioxidants, and legumes are relatively low-glycemic foods, so it is difficult to see how these could be significant causes of LDL oxidation. There will always be some oxidation of LDL cholesterol, no matter what you do, so the more LDL you have, the greater the risk of oxidation, all other things being equal. The best defense is to keep LDL to a minimum.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 8/31, 6:05pm)


Post 53

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 6:35pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

You jumped the gun. You should have done your research (instead of regurgitating old talking points). A little farther down the page to which I linked is the refutation (not mere rebuttal, but a full-fledged refutation) of most of the main points of your post 52:

************************************************
So, how much fat were they getting and what types of fat did they eat? As I mentioned earlier, there was no single Stone Age diet, but rather diet varied by season, locale, and food availability. From our analyses of 229 hunter-gatherer diets and the nutrient content of wild plants and animals, our research team has demonstrated the most representative fat intake would have varied from 28 to 57% of total calories. To reduce our risk of heart disease, the American Heart Association recommends that we should limit our total fat to 30% or less of our daily calories. On the surface, it would appear that, except for the extreme lower range, there would be too much fat in the typical hunter-gatherer diet. Well, this is the same message that we (the American public) have heard for decades--get the fat out of your diet! The Food Pyramid cautions us to cut as much fat as we can and replace it with grains and carbohydrate. Not only is this message misguided, it is just flat out wrong. Scientists have known for more than 50 years that it is not the total amount of fat in the diet that promotes heart disease but rather the kind of fat. Plain and simple, it is a qualitative issue, not a quantitative one! Polyunsaturated fats are good for us, particularly when we correctly balance the omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids. Monounsaturated fats are heart healthy, and even some saturated fats such as stearic acid (found in animal fat) do not promote heart disease. Deadly fats are three specific saturated fats (palmitic acid, lauric acid, and myristic acid) and the trans-fats found in margarine, shortening, hydrogenated vegetable oils, and processed foods made with these products.

Now let’s get back to the fat content of our ancestral hunter-gatherer diet. They frequently ate more fats than we do, but they were almost invariably healthy fats. Using computerized dietary analyses of the wild plant and animal foods, our research team has shown that the usual fat breakdown in hunter-gatherer diets was 55-65% monounsaturated fat, 20-25% polyunsaturated fat (with an omega-6:omega-3 ratio of 2:1), 10-15% saturated fat (with about half being the neutral stearic acid). This balance of fats is exactly what you will be getting when you follow our dietary recommendations.
************************************************

Key points:
--Stone Age-ers frequently had higher fat intakes than modern Americans.

--the usual fat breakdown in hunter-gatherer diets was 55-65% monounsaturated fat, 20-25% polyunsaturated fat (with an omega-6:omega-3 ratio of 2:1), 10-15% saturated fat (with about half being the neutral stearic acid).

--this is exactly what you get -- while eating modern meats -- when you follow paleo-friendly dietary recommendations.

Your big mistake, Bill, was to assume that meat is the sole source of fat in a diet. That assumption would make you attempt to make the points that you did.

Ed


(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/31, 6:36pm)


Post 54

Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,


*************************
Doesn't that depend on how low the low-fat diets were and on what kind of carbohydrates were included in the high-carbohydrate diets?
*************************

Somewhat but, in general, higher protein diets are better than lower protein ones -- regardless of fat total and carbohydrate type.


*************************
On the low-fat, high-carbohydrate Pritikin diet, I lowered my cholesterol from 250 to 120 mg/dL. Pritikin lowered his from 350 to 120. And many other people have had similarly dramatic reductions in their cholesterol. I can virtually guarantee that you won't get those kind of results from the diet you advocate.
*************************

Gimme' a break! You can't do science like that! You can't focus on individual results and then generalize from there! Besides, if I searched hard enough, I'm willing to take you up on your bet. I'll bet you I could find someone who cut their total cholesterol in half.


*************************
Oh, really? Then how do you explain the following conclusions from a study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (Vol. 82, No. 3, 553-558, September 2005)? "In conclusion, compared with a high-carbohydrate diet, a high-protein diet raises tHcy [homocysteine] concentrations throughout the day, both acutely and after 1 wk of habituation.
*************************

Well, hmmm, what should I do about that? I mean it really seems like I am in a pickle here, doesn't it?

[thinking]

[some more thinking]

[still more thinking]

Oh! I got it! What I will do is complain that the researchers in your piddly-diddly, rinky-dink study only studied 20 men for only 8 days with or without a B-vitamin-deficient powdered protein supplement! What a terrible study to generalize from!

Oh, and I'd respond with an even better study regarding interactions of total homocysteine (tHcy) and food. For instance, I might respond with a study like this one ...

Dietary predictors of plasma total homocysteine in the Hordaland Homocysteine Study. Br J Nutr. 2007 Jul;98(1):201-10.

... where thousands of people were studied and "Eggs, chicken, non-processed meat, fish and milk were inversely associated with tHcy."

Yeah. That's what I'd do.

:-)

Ed

p.s. Bill, anybody could come up with a study showing protein increases your tHcy if they give you a protein powder which doesn't have the tHcy-lowering B-vitamins to prevent your body from making Hcy from the amino acids. It's a terrible way to do science, but anyone could do it.

A key factor in paleo-friendly diets is how much higher they are in homocysteine-lowering nutrients such as B-6 and B-12. Nutrition is a balance and paleo-friendly diets have the MOST balance.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/31, 7:34pm)


Post 55

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 - 8:27amSanction this postReply
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wonder what y'all think of this, then.......

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0738213624?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwviolentkicom&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0738213624

Post 56

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Did you know that there is a vegan version of The Atkins Diet?

I was surprised to find it while perusing the cybernetic journal archives at pubMed. Who would have known? A vegetarian diet with minimal carbohydrates. Usually vegetarians are "bread-etarians."

:-)

Ed


Post 57

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

If everyone switched to Brendan Brazier's chlorella-protein Thrive diet, then the world would be "saved", but the World Records (for strength athletes, at least) would cease to be routinely broken.

Ed


Post 58

Wednesday, September 1, 2010 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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I just thought it odd enough to throw out here... ;-)

Post 59

Thursday, September 2, 2010 - 10:31amSanction this postReply
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Ed , in a previous message (Post #50), you wrote,
The types of meats permitted on The Paleo Diet are lean meats (beef, pork, poultry, fish, seafood) trimmed of visible fat. These meats are healthful because they have nutritional characteristics similar to wild animals.
Once again, this statement is false. The lean meats available today do NOT have nutritional characteristics similar to wild animals. Later, in Post #53, you wrote:
--the usual fat breakdown in hunter-gatherer diets was 55-65% monounsaturated fat, 20-25% polyunsaturated fat (with an omega-6:omega-3 ratio of 2:1), 10-15% saturated fat (with about half being the neutral stearic acid).

--this is exactly what you get -- while eating modern meats -- when you follow paleo-friendly dietary recommendations. . . . Your big mistake, Bill, was to assume that meat is the sole source of fat in a diet. That assumption would make you attempt to make the points that you did.
So where do you get the other fats that you claim would offset the fatty composition of modern meat? Fish, fish oil? How much fish or fish oil, would you then have to take on the Paleo diet to offset the fat composition of modern meat and approximate the fat composition of the hunter-gatherer diets? Since modern meat is not the same as wild game, wouldn't it be difficult to know if the composition of the diet available today met Stone Age standards?

I wrote, "On the low-fat, high-carbohydrate Pritikin diet, I lowered my cholesterol from 250 to 120 mg/dL. Pritikin lowered his from 350 to 120. And many other people have had similarly dramatic reductions in their cholesterol. I can virtually guarantee that you won't get those kind of results from the diet you advocate." You replied,
Gimme' a break! You can't do science like that! You can't focus on individual results and then generalize from there!
Of course, and I didn't mean to imply that you could. These were just examples of what is possible on the Pritikin diet. As you know, there are ample studies to prove that the diet not only lowers cholesterol dramatically in test subjects, but also promotes regression of atherosclerosis, something that has not been demonstrated to occur on any other diet, including the Paleo diet.
Besides, if I searched hard enough, I'm willing to take you up on your bet. I'll bet you I could find someone who cut their total cholesterol in half.
Perhaps, but I'll bet you won't find anyone on the Paleo diet who got it as low as 120 mg/dL or who got their LDL low enough to promote reversal of atherosclerosis.


(Edited by William Dwyer on 9/02, 11:44am)


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