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Post 0

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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I pulled this quote from Bill's post 77 in this thread. Another gem comes from Bill's very next post in that thread:
The culture of the people who were called "rednecks" and "crackers" before they ever got on the boats to cross the Atlantic was a culture that produced far lower levels of intellectual and economic achievement, as well as far higher levels of violence and sexual promiscuity...While a third of the white population of the U.S. lived within the redneck culture, more than 90% of the black population did. Although that culture eroded away over the generations...It eroded away much faster in Britain than in the U.S. and somewhat faster among Southern whites than among Southern blacks, who had fewer opportunities ...
The facts really do speak for themselves here. The dominant driver of human intelligence is culture. A "redneck" culture gets you a "redneck" mentality and "redneck" development (regardless of your specific genotype). Hard, real-world data indicate that genes play only a minor role in intelligence, compared to environment.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/12, 4:32pm)


Post 1

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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To gauge the extent to which racial IQ differences are innate, you would compare race A to race B within SIMILAR TIMES AND CULTURES, thereby isolating the variable. Sowell either doesn't understand this elementary principle of scientific inquiry or chooses to disregard it.

The raw (non-adjusted) scores vary across times and cultures, but the race gaps DO NOT. As black IQs rose, so did white IQs.

Sowell cites no example of IQ scores equalizing, because there is no such example WITHIN any particular time or culture (or subculture). Sowell's argument boomerangs back on him. Culture-only explanations of racial IQ variation are not logically supported by the evidence. The opposite conclusion is suggested by the fact that well-off, well-educated blacks TODAY have kids who on average score BELOW white kids whose parents are rednecks.

The only theories that explains observable realities include hereditarianism as a major component. Mainstream science points to intelligence being 60%-75% heritable. I can accurately predict the racial gaps in every country and culture on earth based on these premises. Culture-only theory has no real-world predictive value. It is pure idealism that supposes that equal cultures would produce equal outcomes -- or that infusing blacks with better cultural values than Asians would produce black superiority in IQ performance vs. Asians. Such outcomes have never been observed and never will be.

Reality, of course, is irrelevant to idealists. Still, IT IS.


Post 2

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is highly heritable and polygenic

General intelligence is an important human quantitative trait that accounts for much of the variation in diverse cognitive abilities. Individual differences in intelligence are strongly associated with many important life outcomes, including educational and occupational attainments, income, health and lifespan. Data from twin and family studies are consistent with a high heritability of intelligence, but this inference has been controversial. We conducted a genome-wide analysis of 3511 unrelated adults with data on 549692 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) and detailed phenotypes on cognitive traits. We estimate that 40% of the variation in crystallized-type intelligence and 51% of the variation in fluid-type intelligence between individuals is accounted for by linkage disequilibrium between genotyped common SNP markers and unknown causal variants. These estimates provide lower bounds for the narrow-sense heritability of the traits. 
 
http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v16/n10/full/mp201185a.html
 


Post 3

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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In reference to the above document, which is a more recent and more authoritative source for information on the heritability of intelligence than a Thomas Sowell column...  A strong heritability component to intelligence -- which is now proven, established science -- would not square with the degree and persistency of observed racial variation in intelligence unless the heritable traits for intelligence also vary by race.  We know that traits for brain size vary by race, and that these variations line up exactly with variations in measures of intelligence.   


Post 4

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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Brad,

As I said to you before, think of the epistemology here.

There is an argument that the heritability of intelligence should show up in research as getting smaller through scientific advancement. This is because the genetic argument is based on a argument-from-exclusion. For an example from the medical field, doctors sometimes use the 'diagnosis-from-exclusion' when they can't find a cause, and so rule out everything else). Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is a diagnosis lacking a positive identifier. It is only after everything else is ruled out -- excluded -- that the doctor gives the diagnosis of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

This dovetails nicely into the argument for heritability of intelligence. In other words, it's only when environmental factors have been accounted for -- or held invariable -- when we get to say that something is genetic. We subtract the effect of the environmental factors away, and the remainder is considered to be genetic. But the issue is that we keep finding environmental factors which affect intelligence.

No scientific study on intelligence, no matter how well supported by professionals, lives up to the standard of accounting for everything in the environment. Typically, a scientific study accounts for things like socioeconomic status and some broad malnutrition standards -- as things that would be confounders in a 'diagnosis' that intelligence was genetic. As we learn more about environmental factors affecting intelligence, then researchers start accounting more for those factors (if they are logical researchers). But, as I've shown elsewhere, there are key environmental factors routinely missed.

Challenge:
Show me a professional study and I will show you something -- a potential confounder to their results -- that they missed.

Ed


Post 5

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 11:16pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

The study I referenced identifies actual genetic markers for intelligence.  They aren't inferring a genetic explanation based on exclusion of environmental inputs.  They are identifying genetic causes per se -- the actual genes themselves.  They're there! 

Neither you nor I are experts in this area.  Yet you think you are in a position to dismiss the findings of genetics because geneticists haven't considered the ten billionth possible environmental factor into their research.  It would be like insisting that we can't know whether height is genetic until we've factored out all possible environmental inputs -- which, of course, no one will ever be able to do.  It's obvious to any reasonable person that height is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors.  And so is brain functioning. 

You erect impossible burdens of proof that you probably wouldn't apply to the study of the genetics of any other species, of any other organ of the human body besides the brain, or of any purely physical attribute.

That women today might be as tall on average as men were in generations past does not mean that the male/female height gap has no genetic basis. In fact, it is mostly genetic. And so is the black/white IQ gap, in my view. Maybe I'm over-estimating the genetic component of it. But the claim that the black/white IQ gap is 0.00000000% genetic is not plausible, let alone supported by evidence.  Yet you defend it.

You are being unreasonable in not allowing your views on this subject to be informed by the evidence.   At the same time, you're quoting people who make transparently bad arguments for your position.  I'm left to infer that you are and will remain firmly tethered to your presuppositions on this subject for reasons unrelated to their positival viability. 


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Post 6

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 11:27pmSanction this postReply
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If nothing else Brad is persistent.

Why he insists on posting on a site that values the individual as the highest virtue is beyond me.

Has it ever occured to you brad that iq tests are flawed?
Pfft mine tested at 162 when I was 18 and only because I happened to remember the formula for calculating compound interest amongst other formulas. Today id likely score 120-130 and I'm a lot smarter today then I ever was as an 18 year old.

IQ TESTS ARE NOT RELIABLE INDICATORS OF ACTUAL INTELLECTUAL ABILITY.

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Post 7

Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 2:46amSanction this postReply
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I second the observation Jules Troy made in Post 6 of this thread. Standardized IQ tests alone mean very little. Intelligence divorced from wisdom produces mediocrity or worse. Has Brad Trun ever visited a Mensa event?

Anecdotal evidence means little. I will therefore share it anyway. As a child in rural North Carolina, my bus route to school varied, with some years filling the bus with rednecks and other years with blacks. (One year a teacher called me "The White Shadow" under the latter condition.) I frankly found the blacks easier people with whom to get along. The rednecks tended toward violence, etc. I know this means almost nothing, but Ed's initial post in this thread did resonate with me.

Post 8

Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
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Brad,

Let's go around in circles some more. It provides for an interesting read to 3rd-party viewers and we may -- we just may -- learn from each other in the process.

The study I referenced identifies actual genetic markers for intelligence.  They aren't inferring a genetic explanation based on exclusion of environmental inputs.  They are identifying genetic causes per se -- the actual genes themselves.
That's what I'm talking about! Genes don't come with some kind of a label saying:

"This gene is a gene that controls for intelligence."

Instead, we infer the effects of the gene against and across a background or range of backgrounds. There may be first principles behind our inference -- such as that the gene codes for the hippocampal protein inside of which our non-physical memories are stored (in the form of a physical protein).

Yet you think you are in a position to dismiss the findings of genetics because geneticists haven't considered the ten billionth possible environmental factor into their research.  It would be like insisting that we can't know whether height is genetic until we've factored out all possible environmental inputs -- which, of course, no one will ever be able to do.  It's obvious to any reasonable person that height is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors.  And so is brain functioning. 
Good point. I don't mean to go that far and dismiss everything based simply on first principles or merely based on my superior understanding of epistemology (compared to average professional scientists working in the field today).

Maybe I'm over-estimating the genetic component of it. But the claim that the black/white IQ gap is 0.00000000% genetic is not plausible, let alone supported by evidence.  Yet you defend it.
I didn't go that far, Brad. The studies I've recently cited said that intelligence was about 15%-50% genetic. Because of the idea that I first mentioned to you in this thread, it's logical to take the low numbers on heritability over the high ones (because high ones can be spurious and confounded by the environment).

Ed


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Post 9

Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 5:20pmSanction this postReply
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Ironically brad according to your own doctrine we white people are less "human" than black people that have never left africa.
Why? Well way back when we migrated north we had a little "getting jiggy with it" with neanderthals!
Black people did not.
Both caucasian and asian decended people have a certain amount of neanderthal dna.
Black people and arab decendants do not.

Not that it means anything I just found it interesting in an irrelevant non racist kinda way..just sayin.

Post 10

Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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lol, Jules.

I read an interesting article about that recently. Research finally proved what scientists have speculated for decades.


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Post 11

Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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Genes-> Embryology and Maternal Environment -> Phenotype -> Development (Environment & Choice) -> Intelligences -> IQ test

When a person grasps the magnitude of the conceptual distance between the clusters of alles on DNA (those present and those absent) and the meaning (or lack thereof) in IQ tests, they can only persist in a belief that race determines intelligence because they harbor racist intentions.
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The leap being made with statistical correlations is that those genes that are associated with racial characteristics result in heritable intelligence as represented by IQ tests. But this presumes that intelligence is so well understood and defined as to be quantified. I don't think they are even close in that area.

Even if they actually knew what intelligence was, the next presumption is that IQ score equal Intelligence. NOT. As Luke mentioned above when mentioning Mensa, an organization that believes high IQ and intelligence are the same, "Intelligence divorced from wisdom produces mediocrity or worse."

Another item to consider is the separatation of development in an environment from genetic inheritance - this hasn't been adequately done. The capacity to think depends upon knowledge - knowing how to think is really a collection of learned processes that correlate to culture, to family, and to psychology - and those are all areas where choice plays the key role.

Another problem is the gap between phenotype and genotype - a gap that hasn't been adequately covered.

Take embryology and the maternal environment. Both of these are major components in the translation of a specific set of genes into a specific entity. The genes code for the creation of an entity, like a recipe codes for the building of a certain dish. That is very different from thinking of the genes as a blueprint or engineering design that only represents the finished product as opposed to being a description of the process for building it. Genes are to embryology more a set of initial instructions than a representation of a finished product. When you follow a recipe for cake, the altitude, the humidity and a host of other environmental factors will play important parts - not just the raw ingredients. In the intitial stages of embrionic development, gravity, pH, and a host of variations in chemical components will change the resulting fetus. My eyes are brown, as I sit here, because my genes made coded for certain proteins and those proteins made them so. That influence of the genes mostly ended while I was still in the womb. Studies have shown that there is a significant effect on phenotype that derives not from the genes but from the environment in which they are processed to create a child from the zygote - inside the womb. In fact, one study correlated resulting IQ with degrees of maternal environment's similarity (asking, "Is there a tighter grouping of IQ scores of those sharing the same womb at the same time (twins), than with those using the same womb at a later period - immediate younger siblings - and lastly, with those who have were born to the same mother and father, but with many years between siblings." They found a significant positive correlation which by itself reduces the claim that IQ variation is due to genes. Although both views make the dumb mistake of think that IQ = intelligence.)

And finally, the genes themselves: The claim that we not only know what intelligence is in a comparable way to how we know what eye color is... well, that's just laughable. So, we don't really know what intelligence is, but we have created a test that purports to measure it, and then we infer test score variations as being due to race? Give me a break. The only thing I like about this whole misshapen equation is that it puts determinists and racists in bed together :-)
---------------

Let's take a look at 'intelligence'

One key component of intelligence arises out of our volitional capacity. "Intelligent" people make better psychoepistemological choices - they do a better job in choosing amoung the different ways that one could 'think' and that gives them better results. They ask themselves better questions. There is a lot involved in this seemingly simple observation. It isn't just using reason over emotion. It isn't just using reason over faith. It isn't just using more rigorous logic. It also involves imagining an adequate set of alternatives so that we aren't examining an option set that doen't include the best answer. It involves forumlating questions that stay inside an appropriate context, yet share the proper direction - not just any questions will do. It involves knowing when we have questioned enough. It involves maintaining that balance between finding errors and accepting truths - at the right speed and not letting up too early.

We are rational beings, but that certainly doesn't mean we don't have emotions and feelings. Because of our capacity to reason, and our need to constantly choose amoung alternatives, and that these "alternatives" appear in our minds even though they may have no current correspondent in reality (like when we are imagining a better way to do something), and we can measure alternatives not just logically, but with emotional reactions and because emotions are the result of internalized value judgements, we have a very complex mechanism even before we consider the hierarchical structure of knowledge and the cognitive faculty needed to abstract and integrate our personal intellectual understanding of the world. We have to use 'intelligence' to separate out defensive emotions from honest, negative emotions, and we have to separate honest emotions that match with cognitive understandings, from emotions that would lead us astray. Remember any of that on your last Stanford-Binet?

It isn't race that determines 'intelligence'. It is the way one learns to choose to operate their rational faculty (a faculty that involves all the complexity of conceptualization, imagination, self-awareness, self-esteem, control of the functioning of thought in the midst of feelings and emotions, holding a thread of purposefulness, individuation and the values one has acquired, and the structure of knowledge one has integrated and indexed). Yeah, tell me that is reducible to a number, and I'll agree that the final answer to the meaning of life is 42.

Post 12

Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

You are an incredibly good writer. Virtually every post you write is eloquently written, which is not to say that I always agree with it. :-) But, let me ask you: Are you saying that intelligence is entirely a matter of environment and free will -- that there is no inherited or innate component to it?

What is interesting is that IQ correlates with mental (not physical) reaction time, which suggests that it has at least something to do with brain physiology, which is inherited. Are you disputing this as well?



Post 13

Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 10:47pmSanction this postReply
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Steve that post could be an article all on its own! Great writing as Bill pointed out.

Pass me a pan galactic gargleblaster!

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Post 14

Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 10:54pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, thank you for kind words. They are certainly appreciated.
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The primary problem is with the understanding of intelligence. We would have to get a much firmer grasp on that before we could explore what parts rest on inheritance - some part does rest on inheritance but it might be miniscule.

Your position on volition, as I remember it,is a tiny bit closer to determinism than mine. But when it comes to the chemistry - to the physical side of things - everyone is still at a loss to explain how we understand the leap from neurons firing to creative thoughts and choosing between them.

I see a great chasm between a person with x amount of intelligence and high self-esteem, and another person with the same intellectual horse-power, but flops about ineffectually due to unresolved self-esteem issues. So much of what is applied intelligence is an absence of defensiveness and self-made blindness.

In terms of learning, there are the models we start with - our parents. If even just one of them respected logical thinking, that is what we cut our teeth on and we get a giant head start in this area.

So, with those preceding paragraphs I wanted to indicate that even if there were some base that was entirely inherited, that what follows from uncertainty about volition and from mental processes chosen, and self-esteem and psychology, and what was unique in our learning environment would make any attempt to correlate genetics and intelligence (which we have no grasp of)... well, foolish.

I liked Richard Dawkins book, The Extended Phenotype, where he argues that even the beaver's pond should be seen as an extension of the beaver's genes. Taking him literally with humans we would say that every bit of our culture derives from our genes. But not so, because we have the complication of volition, which in this metaphysical context acts as an independent agent breaking much of the cause-effect chain that would otherwise tie me today to my ancestors a millennium ago. Genes may be the sole drivers of all that flows from the beaver, but for humans some things fall to genetic inheritance and others to choices - two agents of cause.

When we know more about intelligence we can sort this out better. My gut tells me that we inherit some upper capacities, and/or physiological defects via the genes. But that we inherit memes from our culture and from our family that are far more powerful in determining intelligence than the genetic component. And we stir it all about with our own choices. What I know of psychology says we may be operating at a very low percent of any genetic limitation on our intelligence that might constrain us. And the confluence of the right choices made early, in an environment that permits some good learning can take a person far beyond anything like what the dreary world of statistics might suggest in the studies I've seen.
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You wrote, "What is interesting is that IQ correlates with mental (not physical) reaction time, which suggests that it has at least something to do with brain physiology, which is inherited. Are you disputing this as well?"

I can see other explanations (and I'm not crazy about IQ tests). Some cultures have child rearing practices that encourage mental alertness and others practically discourage it. We not only don't know much about intelligence, we also don't know much about early learning. Then there is psychology. What we imagine to be our identity becomes a self-enforcing prophecy. I've been around kids that were mentally quick, but became zombies in simple sports activities because they had self-defined themselves as a klutz. I've seen bright, alert kids go stupid in romantic situations out of shyness. I don't doubt in the least that they would show physiological changes from one circumstance to another - changes in brain chemistry and hormones. It is a complex area - what about the forms of autism where the IQ score would be low, but the mental reaction time in certain areas, like math computations, or recall, are higher than normal?


Post 15

Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jules, thank you as well.

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