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Post 60

Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 9:41pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

You haven't answered the quiz question yet. No free passes.

As to where one thing starts and another begins... well, mother nature is full of things that are analog rather than digital where one blends into another. The electromagnetic spectrum is, after all a spectrum. But BEFORE you can even talk about where a boundary is, or where it should be, or how to discover it, or how to define it, you must name what it is a boundary between. You haven't done that yet. Answer the quiz.

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Post 61

Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa:

Given a particular subset of genetic sequences, such a sequence exists in a set of organisms. Some exist in most species, some in many, some only in a few or single species. Some only in a single organism.

I would say the definition of race in humans is usually meant to group people by when their parents split from their ancestors.

Wikipedia:

Anatomically modern humans evolved from archaic Homo sapiens in Africa in the Middle Paleolithic, about 200,000 years ago. By the beginning of the Upper Paleolithic period (50,000 BP [Before Present]), full behavioral modernity, including language, music and other cultural universals had developed.

The out of Africa migration is estimated to have occurred about 70,000 years BP. Modern humans subsequently spread to all continents, replacing earlier hominids: they inhabited Eurasia and Oceania by 40,000 years BP, and the Americas at least 14,500 years BP.[36] A popular theory is that they displaced Homo neanderthalensis and other species descended from Homo erectus[37] (which had inhabited Eurasia as early as 2 million years ago) through more successful reproduction and competition for resources.[38] The exact manner or extent of the coexistence and interaction of these species is unknown and continues to be a controversial subject.

======================

Caucasian: a later group of people (30,000-50,000 years ago migration) that migrated North Westernly from Africa. Potentially mated with Neanderthals (800,000-400,000 years ago migration).

Asian: a mix of some early and later migrants who migrated North Easternly from Africa.

Pacific Islander: a mix of some early and later migrants who migrated North Easternly from Africa, but a smaller portion of the later.

Native American: 25,000 year ago migration from Asia. Except some "native" Canadians had migrated all throughout 10,000 years ago to present.

African: Huge genetic diversity of the first homo sapiens (organisms considered human/homo sapien since ~200,000 years ago), but lacking some recent mutations that exist in smaller migrant groups above.

======================

See the genetic distance definition of ancestry.

We have the following races:
Native: African, Australian, Pacific Islander, Southeast Asian, Northeast Asian & American, Caucasian.

Caucasians, Eastern Pacific Islanders, and Native Americans have the least genetic variation (or greatest genetic specialization).

We successfully produce offspring when mating between the races (we are the same species). So offspring between two races would create a hybrid.

The races were caused by barriers to movement such as: large bodies of water, mountains, and great distances. Since the industrial revolution and major advancement in transportation technology, there have been more mixes between the races. Yet the races will still probably continue through the future due to distance/locality (people tend to mate with others close by).

Some ways that races might begin to disappear:
- An ice age that wipes out a great portion of the human population, causing most people to live near the equator, resulting in new races: Central Americans, Middle Easterners, North Africans, South Asians, Pacific Islanders
- A massive war where the winner kills all of the other males and mating with the females of its conquered subjects (reducing genetic diversity of the male sex genes significantly, and spreading the conquering genes to all races).
- Genetic engineering, bio-computer interfaces, intelligent self replicating computers: massive potential future diversity of designs for human level intelligent life forms... which might replace homo sapiens.

Post 62

Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

There is one more way that races will disappear. Sex, lots of sex (along with transportation to allow lots of sex between all the different races in all the different regions, and an end to stupid cultural restrictions on intermarrying - these things are happening... but that isn't something that happens in a short time.)

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Post 63

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you were serious, Steve:

One, and only one of the pictures below is of a Black American - commonly referred to as an African-American even though he has never been to Africa. Which one, and how did you know? (Hint: It does NOT have anything to do with the background color, or that one photo is in black and white, or that one fellow is older, or that one fellow is smiling, or that one fellow is looking off camera and the other isn't. This is NOT a trick question!)

Well, the guy on the left is considered "black" by modern standards, and the one on the right  is called "white,"  but that doesn't tell me what race they are. Black and white aren't races, they're colors. 

My youngest grandson is really adorable (no, really really adorable.) He looks like so many different kinds of people, you'd struggle to place his genetic origin by looking at him. He lives in Japan with his mom and dad. His dad is my son.  




Post 64

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
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Dean, I gave you a Red Check for the baseline work.  Genetic drift and isolation combine to create population groups.  Other genetic types exist as well: extrovert, introvert; egoist, altruist; guardian, trader, ... Karl Jung attempted to place them into archetypes. We know that babies are born with personalities.  Can you change your in-born personality?  It seems so.  Few choose to do so.  That, itself speaks volumes.  Jocks do not choose to become nerds in order to become computer millionaires.  Rather, they dream of being football heroes.  Gays may have hetero marriages, though they may not be happy within them. 
 
Are aviators, nerds, extroverts, and guardians races?

When I was learning to fly, I was at a party at my in-laws and I asked this guy if he was a pilot.  He was a bit taken aback and some near us might have chuckled and my father-in-law said that Mr. Kiesel owned the cherry orchard across the road.  Later Kiesel told me that he flew helicopters in Viet Nam.  Can there be a gene for "aviator"?  Likely not, but just as clearly, some  mix of inherited traits known across all so-called "races" makes some people "natural born fliers."  Others just dress up. 

      

      

    

If skin, hair, lips and eyes define "race" can you change your race?

   

 Tress's point is that whatever happened 100,000 years ago, there is no such "race" as "African-Amercan."  It is purely a social construct.  The claim that the loss of race is not rapid is simply not true. 

      

The evidence is overwhelming.  You have no way to know what someone's "race" really is.  You can guess... maybe... But whatever "race" you decide on is a social construct with no objective standard of proof.

     

     

    

(I will supply the answers later.  In the mean time, enjoy the ambiguities.)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/11, 7:13am)


Post 65

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Race is defined here in plain English: "A group or population of humans categorized on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics..." (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Race). Nerdiness is not heritable on a group basis.  A jock can father a nerd and vice versa.  Blacks can't produce oriental offspring or vice versa.  This is elementary.  Michael is playing dumb.  He seeks to deconstruct, not understand.
 
The difficulty in precisely categorizing varieties of humans does not invalidate the concept of sets of heritable characteristics within populations of a species, anymore than the color spectrum or geographical features are invalidated by ambiguities.  Where does green end and blue begin?  What precisely distinguishes a mountain from a hill?  Appeals to imprecision do not invalidate concepts.
 
Post-modernist, deconstructionist, and social constructionist views of race are anti-conceptual and politically motivated.  No amount of ambiguity justifies a surrender to epistemological collectivism in the form of calling up the neologism "social construct."  People don't use that term to name ambiguity or express skepticism per se.  They use it to avoid naming the realities underlying a concept that threatens floating social, moral, and/or political premises. 
 
Race is the only such concept to which "social construct" is heavily applied.  You never hear it applied to the mysteries of the universe or to evolution (the cause of racial variation) itself.  Either a concept names or classifies an aspect of reality or it doesn't. Nothing can make the existence or extent of biological variations among human populations become dependent on social attitudes. The only things that could be said to be socially constructed about race are cultural and legal responses to race.  Race itself can only be recognized or denied.  It can't be socially constructed.  Michael both denies race and calls it a social construct.  His concept-forming faculty has been wrecked by political correctness.  He's spouting utter nonsense that is wholly at odds with the Objectivist metaphysics and theory of concept formation.

Dean, Europeans and Asians carry remnants of neanderthal DNA. Africans do not (http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/26/feeling-like-a-neanderthal-heres-why/).  Neanderthals had large brains.  Africans today have relatively small average brain sizes. Brain size is positively correlated with intelligence:


Studies of brain size, including those using MRI,
show a correlation of 0.40 with IQ. Substantial population differences exist in brain size that parallel the IQ differences. In average cranial capacity (cm3), East Asians =1364; Whites =1347;
and Blacks =1267. Since every cubic centimeter of brain
tissue contains millions of brain cells and billions of synapses,
the race differences in brain size help to explain the race differences in IQ

 
(http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Templer%20&%20Rushton%202011%20Intelligence.pdf)


Our respective evolutionary roots help explain who we are today.  Race denial is evolution denial, on par with creationism -- except that creationism is more plausible than social construct theory, and it represents much less of a direct attack on reality and reason.  Creationism merely posits a first cause rather than a full-fledged denial/deconstruction of observable realities. 

Dean, are you going to take a firm stand on this?  I suspect you are more fully in agreement with race realism than you have thusfar chosen to state explicitly.

(Edited by Brad Trun on 12/11, 11:11am)

(Edited by Brad Trun on 12/11, 11:17am)


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Post 66

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 1:21pmSanction this postReply
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Marotta wrote, Other genetic types exist as well: extrovert, introvert; egoist, altruist; guardian, trader, ... Karl Jung attempted to place them into archetypes. We know that babies are born with personalities. Can you change your in-born personality? It seems so. Few choose to do so. That, itself speaks volumes. Jocks do not choose to become nerds in order to become computer millionaires. Rather, they dream of being football heroes. Gays may have hetero marriages, though they may not be happy within them."

So Michael thinks that egoism, altrusim, and moral stances consistent with Jane Jacob's Guardian and Trader positions are genetic. So much for volition and choice. We are just robot run by the genes. He then contradicts himself by implying that some choose to change their personality... Does that mean we can change our genes if we think hard enough? Or does it mean he was just kidding when he said that our beliefs and our personality traits are genetically determined?

Jung never considered Archtypes to be genetically transmitted. They are part of Platonian sort of other universe or set of forms where the past and present are all the same and we channel timeless experiences via the Collective Unconsciousness. I haven't heard of any geneticists looking for the genes that carry the Shadow, or The Great Mother, or even the location of the Collective Unconsciousness.

Jung had some very loose intellectual boundaries between reality, mysticism and symbolic representations of the psyche useful for therapy or understanding of the personality. From Wikipedia, "...Jung's last book and focused on the "Mysterium Coniunctionis" archetype, known as the sacred marriage between sun and moon. Jung argued that the stages of the alchemists, the blackening, the whitening, the reddening and the yellowing, could be taken as symbolic of individuation - his favourite term for personal growth." He was big on Astrology and Alchemy and believed in Clairvoyance, Precognition, Telepathy. This was a very mystical man.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 12/11, 2:03pm)


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Post 67

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
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(Mine)

While biological scientists sometimes use the concept of race to make practical distinctions among fuzzy sets of traits, others in the scientific community suggest that the idea of race is often used by the general public[5] in a naive[6] or simplistic way. Among humans, race has no taxonomic significance; all people belong to the same hominid subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens.[7]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-AAPA-7"[8] Regardless of the extent to which race exists, the word "race" is problematic and may carry negative connotations.[9] Social conceptions and groupings of races vary over time, involving folk taxonomies [10] that define essential types of individuals based on perceived sets of traits. Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete,[11] and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits.[6]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-aaa-11"[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_humans)


Post 68

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

What I glean from your quote is that there is a biological basis for race, but it isn't very useful, and the defining traits are fuzzy.

It also says that race is used in the public in ways that the scientific community wouldn't support.

The part that you highlighted in bold doesn't mean anything because no one is claiming that each race is a different species or subspecies.

It says that the use of the term 'race' is problematic because it is often used with negative connotations. That's very true, but it doesn't mean that race doesn't exist. Because some people have wrong, and even ugly, connotations about something doesn't mean the thing doesn't exist. People have negative connotations about Capitalism.

Biological Essentialism is the name given to the belief that one race is superior to others and it was never right - it should just be called what it is: racism. But there are still limited amounts of valid research in areas of human anthropology/migration and in medical research where race is a minor factor.

All in all, I think that text that you quoted supports my position fully - there are races, that the concept is abused by those who imagine moral traits or some kind of superiority to attach along racial lines. That although the genetic aspect of race has some minor scientific benefits, overall the term is used in the populace for collective assignments of ethical or political purposes.

Post 69

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Brad, What specifically do you want me to confirm or deny?

I think brain functions have a baseline ability by genetic design (baseline genetic potential) given a standard nutrition, sleep, exercise, education, and experience. Then a more or less optimal nutrition, sleep, exercise, education, and experience would multiply the baseline by percentages. But people do not have "standard", nor "optimal" environmental lifestyles. Some have more "privileged" upbringings as the socialists like to call it.

Yet in the long term (~25 to 30 years after birth), after a person has been making their own decisions for a long enough duration, things like nutrition, sleep, exercise, education, and experience begin to shift from what their childhood guardians chose for them to what they choose for themselves. Even things like inherited wealth are lost. At this time, at last, the ability of their brain functions are primarily determined by themselves, as they make their own decisions on nutrition, sleep, etc. And this is where I would say a person has become themselves, a fully mature adult, and they have become as their genetic design manifests itself in this Earthly environment.

Brain functions:
Long Term Memory: write speed, capacity, kind, detail, duration, recall speed.
Short Term Memory: capacity, kind, detail.
Sensory: kind, detail.
Motor: kind, detail, power, speed, strength, endurance.
Simulation: kind, complexity, capacity, outcome correctness.
Pattern matching (inventive discovery learning, planning): pattern complexity, kind, patterns per second, quality of tries.
Passion & goals: self motivation to make a difference vs satisfaction with what comes in idle, primary goal selection.
Prioritizing: combination of planning, passion, and goal selection, to choose priorities given to time for doing all of the above, and priorities for which information to use in short term and long term memory.

Where do these brain functions come from? What determines their performance and limitations? What determines passion and primary goal selection?

Genetics hold the design creating the biological computational system that has the above abilities. Each design is different in each person. Designs have similarities and variations between people equivalent to the similarities and differences in genetic material between them. Plus effects of experience. Experience becomes less important through generations, and natural selection and genetic design become supreme.

Its easy to refute that genetics has no effect. Suggest a woman try to birth a fertilized monkey egg instead of a fertilized human egg. With the same experience, the monkey will not develop anything near the brain functionality of a human.

Do I expect a random 30 year old African to be of lower IQ than a random 30 year old Caucasian? Yes. Would I expect the African to more likely to have committed a violent crime? Yes. Why? I think that in general Africans have lower intelligence and lower respect for other's property than Caucasians. I think this is due to differences in genetic design, due to natural selection.

Colder environments require greater planning and respect of property rights for a population to survive. You have to build a shelter, and prepare stores for the winter, and you have to kill looters or else you die in the winter.

Warmer ones do not require much planning nor any respect for property rights: year round plants and animals to eat, always warm: athleticism is supreme. People don't spend so much time caring for and building homes, nor storing food. Little value stored for looters to deprive you of, little reason to kill a thief.

There were a significant enough number of generations with natural selection in order to find statistically significant differences between the races in IQ, respect for property, and athletic performance.

But then, how useful is it to know these generalizations? Practically, since there is so much variation even within a race, we still have to meet each person individually.


Post 70

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, its directed at Brad, from Post 65:

The difficulty in precisely categorizing varieties of humans does not invalidate the concept of sets of heritable characteristics within populations of a species, anymore than the color spectrum or geographical features are invalidated by ambiguities. Where does green end and blue begin? What precisely distinguishes a mountain from a hill? Appeals to imprecision do not invalidate concepts.

Post-modernist, deconstructionist, and social constructionist views of race are anti-conceptual and politically motivated. No amount of ambiguity justifies a surrender to epistemological collectivism in the form of calling up the neologism "social construct." People don't use that term to name ambiguity or express skepticism per se. They use it to avoid naming the realities underlying a concept that threatens floating social, moral, and/or political premises.

Race is the only such concept to which "social construct" is heavily applied. You never hear it applied to the mysteries of the universe or to evolution (the cause of racial variation) itself. Either a concept names or classifies an aspect of reality or it doesn't. Nothing can make the existence or extent of biological variations among human populations become dependent on social attitudes. The only things that could be said to be socially constructed about race are cultural and legal responses to race. Race itself can only be recognized or denied. It can't be socially constructed. Michael both denies race and calls it a social construct. His concept-forming faculty has been wrecked by political correctness. He's spouting utter nonsense that is wholly at odds with the Objectivist metaphysics and theory of concept formation.
 
Clearly homo sapien sapien isn't good enough for him. He wants real Latin classifications and specie divisions within that single class. He's sure all efforts to avoid that end are politically motivated and anti-conceptual.  Not morally motivated, supported by what is actually known about a specific classification, but politically motivated and anti-conceptual.   
 
Do you think Micheal's premise is politically motivated and anti-conceptual, Steve? Is Brad correct, here?
 
This is one of the most interesting and revealing PBS documentaries I've ever watched.  You'll really enjoy it, Steve. It proves that what you see on the outside doesn't necessarily correspond on a bio/genetic level.  Fascinating.
 


Brad, do you sport white sheets on occasion?   For the record, the end of green and beginning of blue is called "teal." The end of red and beginning of yellow is called "orange."  A horse must be at least 15.2 hands high. Anything less is a pony.  The end of a black man and beginning of a white is still called homo sapien. Deal with it.


Post 71

Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

Here are statements from your post, where you are quoting Trun, that I agree with:

1. The difficulty in precisely categorizing varieties of humans does not invalidate the concept of sets of heritable characteristics within populations of a species.
2. Appeals to imprecision do not invalidate concepts.
3. There are people who want to invalidate the concept of race for political reasons. [As to exactly why Michael is taking this path of denying heritable patterns of traits... I don't know.]
4. The only things that could be said to be socially constructed about race are cultural and legal responses to race. [ I need to qualify this one, because I only partially agree with it. People can create social constructs that expand, shrink or miscontrue the facts of race.]
----------------

No way I'm going to argue in favor of Trun's beliefs, including those you mention in the section of your post done in a bold font. Afterall, I'm hoping he will be banned. I do agree that the denial of race is hard to categorize except as anti-conceptual. I think that people do very funny intellectual dances when they try to deny race.
-----------------

I'm enjoying the PBS African American Lives (finished part 1 so far). You remember that Henry Louis Gates is the fellow that falsely accused a Boston cop of being racist, and then Obama brought it all to our awareness as an "teachable moment" where he said he didn't know what happened but he was sure the police acted stupidly - then to difuse the heat from that stupid statement he had the "Rose Garden Beer Summit."

Gates is a bit racist, but there are things I like about him. Here is a description of Gates from Wikipedia: "Gates has combined literary techniques of deconstruction with native African literary traditions; he draws on structuralism, post-structuralism, and semiotics to textual analysis and matters of identity politics. As a black intellectual and public figure, Gates has been an outspoken critic of the Eurocentric literary canon. He has insisted that black literature must be evaluated by the aesthetic criteria of its culture of origin, not criteria imported from Western or European cultural traditions that express a 'tone deafness to the black cultural voice' and result in 'intellectual racism'."

For a "black intellectual" and a professor of African Americanism he is far less strident and much easier to listen to than his collegues.

In the documentary, I particularly liked the bit about Oprah as little girl being told by her grandmother that when she grew up she should be sure to get her some good white folks. And then Oprah saying she did get some good white folks, but that they worked for her. It was such a striking example of how her genes decided the color of her skin, but she decided her beliefs and character, and they decided her accomplishments. She raised herself from the rural poverty of the Jim Crow South to the extraordinary woman she is today. As to her genes... they clearly had little impact on who she is and I agree with that fellow that said those who are so proud of their ancestors are a bit like potato plants - the best part of them being underground.

The video is all about the lives and histories of people where the video has them united by race. But they all were highly successful and their success all came from the good beliefs, the determination, and the hard work - nothing to do with genes. Some were from really good families, some from awful families, some from poverty, some not so much. It wasn't genes or environment - it choices.

Gates weaves a story that takes individual achievements of people who are black and makes of their stories a claim of racial worth, that African American heritage is of special value. I see that as racist, in a very benign and well-intended manner - but none the less it misses the point that accomplishment and character arise out of the individual.

Post 72

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 3:47amSanction this postReply
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Steve, re Gates, ya ya ya, I know.   I should have told you to just skip toward the end when they get into the science part, even though I found the stories themselves quite touching.  

As for imprecision not invalidating a concept, that's been the "God" argument for who knows how long. I think Mike pointed that out.  I'll have to drag out Kelley's text "The Art of Reasoning," though, because I don't remember how he treated the claim.   It's a great textbook.


Post 73

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 3:51amSanction this postReply
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As so often happens, we have four or five people writing well while talking to themselves. We will not convince or persuade each other.

Dean, so, how do you explain East Asians (Chinese, Korean, Japanese)? Would you say that their larger brain size influenced their collectivist societies which in turn rewarded their larger brains? They excel beyond property rights to propriety rites: causing someone else to lose face is as bad as (if not worse than) taking their physical possessions. We here are like primitives warring with each other, rather than seeking middle grounds for agreement. In fact, I have recommended here a book, Getting to Yes about business negotiation. As Master Po might have said it, "Profitable exchange does not come from defeating bad syllogisms, Grasshopper." After you have read all of Ayn Rand, I have a Tao Te Ching in dual language that you can borrow.

"Greed is expensive.
Hoarders are destined to for a great loss.

A content person will not be disgraced.
A person that knows when to stop is in no danger."


Compared to the average Japanese we are functional illiterates. They have four writing systems used in parallel: Kanji (Chinese symbols), hiragana (Native script), katakana (for foreign expressions and exclamations and for other emphatic messages), and also our alphabet, Romanji. In Japan, all four are used commonly. I had two college classes in Japanese for business and watched Japanese TV. In a soap opera, these two women were talking and then switched to English and then back to Japanese. They were cultured and showing class. Think about that ... 

As for our property rights, if you read the Iliad or the Nibelungenlied, you will understand why Scots Highlanders with names including Johnson and Nixon continued their cattle raids when they emigrated to the New World. I have pointed out before on RoR that Muslim women in Cairo 1600 had more real property rights than their sisters in England or France of the time. Then, things changed... Many factors came together to create European capitalism in the Age of Reason. And it swept the world, or, more precisely, the cities of the world. But it is not because of our genes that we were more successful than our competitors. Some Europeans discovered enough of the right ideas at the right time.

Steve, you misunderstand me, again. Almost anything we are born with, we can change. (You have sailed with dolphins; and I have flown with hawks.) But we are born with personalities, abilities, and capabilities, mental, physical, and emotional, chemical, biochemical, and biophysical. And many roads lead to success. So, people with different qualities come to the same places and vice versa. Some people change their personalities, remaking themselves in their own image. Most people apparently do not. You are wrong about race, but that does not in my view make you stupid or evil, only ignorant; and the nice thing about that is that ignorance is so easily remedied.

Tress, we are on the same page, as you know.

Brad, you write good Objectivism, but fail in the argument. One time, in a Japanese class, we had a break, and one of the girls came back late. She made a nice entrance: "Minasen, tadaima!" (Everyone, I am here!) The teacher said, "Very nice, but you would never say that." The Japanese do not draw attention to themselves the way we do. Maybe it is because their brains are bigger and they have higher IQs; or maybe it is because they are crowded on islands; hard to say. You are a White Racist, nothing more. Your arguments are all against people whom you dislike, rather than for people who by your claims are your superiors.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/12, 5:04am)


Post 74

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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BTW, just a note on the electromagnetic spectrum:
Wavelengths are discrete, not continuous.  There is no gentle gradation from blue to green.  They are different energies.  Our perception of them is the cause of our thinking; and our thinking influences our perception. 

It is a theorem in linguistics that people do not invent words for brown and purple until after they have differentiated blue from green. 

English is highly special among languages because it amalgamated and integrated so many influences.  We have a huge vocabulary including Indian words such as bungalow and catamaran and Indian words such as moccasin and wigwam.  When only Britons lived on Britain, not that long ago, blue and green were the same word.  They are not the same wavelength. And they do not gradually shade into each other.

And so, too, with "race."  We think we perceive something; and we have words for instances of it.  However, our common sense claims are invalidated by science.


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Post 75

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

In another topic, Fred Bartlett denied the existence of ghosts -- even though so many people believe in them that we can discuss their attributes at length.

In all fairness to ghosts, I expressed my doubt that they exist as ghosts, even though, for 12 hours of my life, I was included in that group of 'so many people who believe in them that they can discuss their attributes at length, as witnessed with others using their very eyes."

I pointed out that for exactly 12 hours of my life, I and 3 of my close friends were absolutely convinced, by the evidence of our own eyes, that we had all seen the same ghost at the same time, and for those 12 hours, would have sworn on a stack of Bibles or lie detector test or whatever as to the truth of what we saw with our own eyes.

I expressed my belief that it is conceptually impossible to prove such a thing as 'ghosts do not exist,' but equally, that so far, it has been impossible to prove that they do exist(even including eyewitness evidence such as that which would have been readily provided by me an 3 of my closest friends...for exactly 12 hours, until the knowledge we shared was transformed from 'currently unexplained except by a ghost' to 'thoroughly explained by a completely natural process.'

But in our political context, there is no equivalence between 'ghosts' and 'race.' There are no end to government forms which request that one self-identify their race(I often choose 'Eskimo' as a favorite for no particular reason, and will gladly swear that my mother once told me I was an Eskimo. Just ask her; she's a ghost now.)

Count me among the folks who regard race as something that clearly exists, yet not in any significant way, yet is so politically significant that it demands specific legislation and the power of law; see the 8(a) Program.

-Should- race exist, as an intellectual concept? Towards what end? And on that basis, I must agree with Michael.

Those ends are always tribal/collectivist.



(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 12/12, 9:24am)


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Post 76

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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Maybe, or maybe not, but maybe there is insight to be found from comparing the concept 'race' to 'syndrome.'

I was just discussing this the other night at our annual 'Williams Syndrome' Xmas Party, where folks from the MidAtlantic states with children diagnosed with Williams Syndrome get together.

My youngest was diagnosed at the age of 18 months with Williams Syndrome. It is a genetic deletion in a particular gene (Elastin gene), but it is not always the identically same deletion. It is akin to a random 50,000 pair deletion in a local 500,000 pair region of the gene. It happens often enough in the population to be defined as a 'syndrome.' There is a long laundry list of characteristics that folks with WS might experience, some serious, some not-- simply characteristics of their personalities, and so on, or musical ability, or linguistic ability(a love of words)or math inability, 3D spatial concept processing, etc. All WS folks get some attributes but not all.

Just as Downs is a syndrome(though opposite -- too many as opposed to too few DNA pairs...)and Downs kids kind of resemble each other, so do WS kids; when you go to a WS convention, it is like going to a family reunion where only the kids resemble each other. It is sometimes called 'Elfin Facies Syndrome', because the kids are all kind of 'Elfin' cute, with fine facial features, smallish, and with the most incredible personalities. Let me tell you, not all of the consequences of WS are negative, by far. WS kids tend to be the polar opposite of autistic; if autism is an inability to connect to others, then WS is an inability NOT to connect to others, even, perfect strangers. WS kids are like love monkeys. (Is it 'racist' to notice this fact among WS folks?)

WS folks are literally like a race of elves, pixies, and may even be where some of these myths and legends came from. The magical wee people.

Because of the laundry list, folks with WS benefit in some ways from being diagnosed as part of a 'syndrome'; the laundry list is kind of an advanced 'heads up, here are candidate things to look out for in advance; if you detect them early, you have an increased opportunity to deal with them before they get serious.' An example is aortal stenosis/narrowing, which is common but not universal in WS folks(and so, my youngest sees a cardiologist every year for his annual checkup..since he was 18 months old.)

Now, we all -- all of us -- have genetic deletions. Maybe not as severe and concentrated as WS folks, but we all have them. It is part of what makes us unique. But when those genetic deletions are totally random, we are not diagnosed as part of any 'syndrome.' We are on our own to stumble into the consequences of our own genetic deletions.

Said another way, I worry just as much about my older 'non WS' son as I do my WS son, because the older brother did not come with any 'heads up' syndrome laundry list.

Because of the nature of DNA deletions, they are dominant, and would tend to be passed on to later generations. (Think about it; how would the missing/deleted pairs be passed on?)

And so, back to race. Suppose there exists a genetic syndromatic trait that can be associated with certain races; an increased predilection to Lupus or heart disease or whatever. Is it beneficial to study those genetic traits, to identify them, to provide the 'heads-up' laundry lists?

Is 'race' ultimately similar to 'syndrome?'

Because I guarantee you, syndromes exist.

regards,
Fred

(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 12/12, 8:26am)


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Post 77

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 10:44amSanction this postReply
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Brad,

Then how do you explain blacks with high IQ's or Asians with low IQ's? If race determines IQ, then why don't all Asians have higher IQ's than all whites, and all whites, higher IQ's than all blacks? And if they don't, then all you're identifying are statistical differences. If you selected any large group of people at random, it would be astonishing if they all had an equal percentage of skills and abilities. That being the case, don't you have to judge each person as an individual? You're not against judging people as individuals, are you?

In his review of The Bell Curve, Thomas Sowell (who is no politically correct hack) made the following observations:
[Herrnstein and Murray] seem to conclude... that... biological inheritance of IQ... among members of the general society may also explain IQ differences between different racial and ethnic groups.... Such a conclusion goes... much beyond what the facts will support....

[T]he greatest black-white differences are not on the questions which presuppose middle-class vocabulary or experiences, but on abstract questions such as spatial perceptual ability.... [Herrnstein and Murray's] conclusion that this "phenomenon seems peculiarly concentrated in comparisons of ethnic groups" is simply wrong. When European immigrant groups in the United States scored below the national average on mental tests, they scored lowest on the abstract parts of those tests. So did white mountaineer children in the United States tested back in the early 1930s. So did canal boat children in Britain, and so did rural British children compared to their urban counterparts, at a time before Britain had any significant non-white population. So did Gaelic-speaking children as compared to English-speaking children in the Hebrides Islands. This is neither a racial nor an ethnic peculiarity. It is a characteristic found among low-scoring groups of European as well as African ancestry.

In short, groups outside the cultural mainstream of contemporary Western society tend to do their worst on abstract questions, whatever their race might be....

Perhaps the strongest evidence against a genetic basis for intergroup differences in IQ is that the average level of mental test performance has changed very significantly for whole populations over time and, moreover, particular ethnic groups within the population have changed their relative positions during a period when there was very little intermarriage to change the genetic makeup of these groups.

While The Bell Curve cites the work of James R. Flynn, who found substantial increases in mental test performances from one generation to the next in a number of countries around the world, the authors seem not to acknowledge the devastating implications of that finding for the genetic theory of intergroup differences, or for their own reiteration of long-standing claims that the higher fertility of low-IQ groups implies a declining national IQ level. This latter claim is indeed logically consistent with the assumption that genetics is a major factor in interracial differences in IQ scores. But ultimately this too is an empirical issue--and empirical evidence has likewise refuted the claim that IQ test performance would decline over time.

Even before Professor Flynn's studies, mental test results from American soldiers tested in World War II showed that their performances on these tests were higher than the performances of American soldiers in World War I by the equivalent of about 12 IQ points. Perhaps the most dramatic changes were those in the mental test performances of Jews in the United States. The results of World War I mental tests conducted among American soldiers born in Russia--the great majority of whom were Jews--showed such low scores as to cause Carl Brigham, creator of the Scholastic Aptitude Test, to declare that these results "disprove the popular belief that the Jew is highly intelligent." Within a decade, however, Jews in the United States were scoring above the national average on mental tests, and the data in The Bell Curve indicate that they are now far above the national average in IQ.

Strangely, Herrnstein and Murray refer to "folklore" that "Jews and other immigrant groups were thought to be below average in intelligence. " It was neither folklore nor anything as subjective as thoughts. It was based on hard data, as hard as any data in The Bell Curve. These groups repeatedly tested below average on the mental tests of the World War I era, both in the army and in civilian life. For Jews, it is clear that later tests showed radically different results--during an era when there was very little intermarriage to change the genetic makeup of American Jews.

My own research of twenty years ago showed that the IQs of both Italian-Americans and Polish-Americans also rose substantially over a period of decades. Unfortunately, there are many statistical problems with these particular data, growing out of the conditions under which they were collected. However, while my data could never be used to compare the IQs of Polish and Italian children, whose IQ scores came from different schools, nevertheless the close similarity of their general patterns of IQ scores rising over time seems indicative--especially since it follows the rising patterns found among Jews and among American soldiers in general between the two world wars, as well as rising IQ scores in other countries around the world.

The implications of such rising patterns of mental test performance is devastating to the central hypothesis of those who have long expressed the same fear as Herrnstein and Murray, that the greater fertility of low-IQ groups would lower the national (and international) IQ over time. The logic of their argument seems so clear and compelling that the opposite empirical result should be considered a refutation of the assumptions behind that logic....

A man who scores 100 on an IQ test today is answering more questions correctly than his grandfather with the same IQ answered two-generations ago, then someone else who answers the same number of questions correctly today as this man's grandfather answered two generations ago may have an IQ of 85.

Herrnstein and Murray openly acknowledge such rises in IQ and christen them "the Flynn effect," in honor of Professor Flynn who discovered it. But they seem not to see how crucially it undermines the case for a genetic explanation of interracial IQ differences. They say:

The national averages have in fact changed by amounts that are comparable to the fifteen or so IQ points separating blacks and whites in America. To put it another way, on the average, whites today differ from whites, say, two generations ago as much as whites today differ from blacks today. Given their size and speed, the shifts in time necessarily have been due more to changes in the environment than to changes in the genes.

While this open presentation of evidence against the genetic basis of interracial IQ differences is admirable, the failure to draw the logical inference seems puzzling. Blacks today are just as racially different from whites of two generations ago as they are from whites today. Yet the data suggest that the number of questions that blacks answer correctly on IQ tests today is very similar to the number answered correctly by past generations of whites. If race A differs from race B in IQ, and two generations of race A differ from each other by the same amount, where is the logic in suggesting that the IQ differences are even partly racial?

Herrnstein and Murray do not address this question, but instead shift to a discussion of public policy:

Couldn't the mean of blacks move 15 points as well through environmental changes? There seems no reason why not--but also no reason to believe that white and Asian means can be made to stand still while the Flynn effect works its magic.

But the issue is not solely one of either predicting or controlling the future. It is a question of the validity of the conclusion that differences between genetically different groups are due to those genetic differences, whether in whole or in part. When any factor differs as much from Al to A2 as it does from A2 to B2, why should one conclude that this factor is due to the difference between A in general and B in general?...

A remarkable phenomenon commented on in the Moynihan report of thirty years ago goes unnoticed in The Bell Curve--the prevalence of females among blacks who score high on mental tests. Others who have done studies of high- IQ blacks have found several times as many females as males above the 120 IQ level. Since black males and black females have the same genetic inheritance, this substantial disparity must have some other roots, especially since it is not found in studies of high-IQ individuals in the general society, such as the famous Terman studies, which followed high-IQ children into adulthood and later life. If IQ differences of this magnitude can occur with no genetic difference at all, then it is more than mere speculation to say that some unusual environmental effects must be at work among blacks. However, these environmental effects need not be limited to blacks, for other low-IQ groups of European or other ancestries have likewise tended to have females over-represented among their higher scorers, even though the Terman studies of the general population found no such patterns.

One possibility is that females are more resistant to bad environmental conditions, as some other studies suggest. In any event, large sexual disparities in high-IQ individuals where there are no genetic or socioeconomic differences present a challenge to both the Herrnstein- Murray thesis and most of their critics.

Black males and black females are not the only groups to have significant IQ differences without any genetic differences. Identical twins with significantly different birthweights also have IQ differences, with the heavier twin averaging nearly 9 points higher IQ than the lighter one. This effect is not found where the lighter twin weighs at least six and a half pounds, suggesting that deprivation of nutrition must reach some threshold level before it has a permanent effect on the brain during its crucial early development.

Perhaps the most intellectually troubling aspect of The Bell Curve is the authors' uncritical approach to statistical correlations. One of the first things taught in introductory statistics is that correlation is not causation. It is also one of the first things forgotten, and one of the most widely ignored facts in public policy research. The statistical term "multicollinearity," dealing with spurious correlations, appears only once in this massive book.

Multicollinearity refers to the fact that many variables are highly correlated with one another, so that it is very easy to believe that a certain result comes from variable A, when in fact it is due to variable Z, with which A happens to be correlated. In real life, innumerable factors go together. An example I liked to use in class when teaching economics involved a study showing that economists with only a bachelor's degree had higher incomes than economists with a master's degree and that these in turn had higher incomes than economists with Ph.D.'s. The implication that more education in economics leads to lower incomes would lead me to speculate as to how much money it was costing a student just to be enrolled in my course. In this case, when other variables were taken into account, these spurious correlations disappeared. In many other cases, however, variables such as cultural influences cannot even be quantified, much less have their effects tested statistically....
From: Vol. 28, American Spectator, 02-01-1995, pp 32.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 12/12, 10:48am)


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Post 78

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
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Crippled by Their Culture: Race and Racism doesn't hold back America's Blacks

by THOMAS SOWELL April 26, 2005 (extract)

For most of the history of this country, differences between the black and the white population--whether in income, IQ, crime rates, or whatever--have been attributed to either race or racism...Three decades of my own research lead me to believe that neither of those explanations will stand up under scrutiny of the facts. As one small example, a study published last year indicated that most of the black alumni of Harvard were from either the West Indies or Africa, or were the children of West Indian or African immigrants. These people are the same race as American blacks...

What then could explain such large disparities in demographic "representation" among these three groups of blacks? Perhaps they have different patterns of behavior and different cultures and values behind their behavior. There have always been large disparities, even within the native black population of the U.S. Those blacks whose ancestors were "free persons of color" in 1850 have fared far better in income, occupation, and family stability than those blacks whose ancestors were freed in the next decade by Abraham Lincoln.

What is not nearly as widely known is that there were also very large disparities within the white population of the pre-Civil War South and the white population of the Northern states. Although Southern whites were only about one-third of the white population of the U.S., an absolute majority of all the illiterate whites in the country were in the South.

The North had four times as many schools as the South, attended by more than four times as many students. Children in Massachusetts spent more than twice as many years in school as children in Virginia. Such disparities obviously produce other disparities. Northern newspapers had more than four times the circulation of Southern newspapers. Only 8% of the patents issued in 1851 went to Southerners. Even though agriculture was the principal economic activity of the antebellum South at the time, the vast majority of the patents for agricultural inventions went to Northerners. Even the cotton gin was invented by a Northerner.

Disparities between Southern whites and Northern whites extended across the board from rates of violence to rates of illegitimacy. American writers from both the antebellum South and the North commented on the great differences between the white people in the two regions. So did famed French visitor Alexis de Tocqueville...Slavery also cannot explain the difference between American blacks and West Indian blacks living in the United States because the ancestors of both were enslaved. When race, racism, and slavery all fail the empirical test, what is left? Culture is left.

The culture of the people who were called "rednecks" and "crackers" before they ever got on the boats to cross the Atlantic was a culture that produced far lower levels of intellectual and economic achievement, as well as far higher levels of violence and sexual promiscuity...While a third of the white population of the U.S. lived within the redneck culture, more than 90% of the black population did. Although that culture eroded away over the generations...It eroded away much faster in Britain than in the U.S. and somewhat faster among Southern whites than among Southern blacks, who had fewer opportunities for education or for the rewards that came with escape from that counterproductive culture.

Nevertheless the process took a long time. As late as the First World War, white soldiers from Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi scored lower on mental tests than black soldiers from Ohio, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania. Again, neither race nor racism can explain that--and neither can slavery.

The redneck culture proved to be a major handicap for both whites and blacks who absorbed it...The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with...

Ref. http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006608 (Extract)

Post 79

Monday, December 12, 2011 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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I've sanctioned your last two posts, Bill. Well done. Thomas Sowell is real treasure.

I haven't gone after the bad research purporting to show IQ differences by race, because, as a psychologist, in grad school, I've had to take the major IQ tests, to administer them, to study them and the theories they are based upon - most importantly, the concept of what intelligence is. From that background, my perspective is that I don't have much respect for IQ tests.

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