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Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for your commentary on this bleak and indefensible act, and on 'Bomber' Harris. Anyone interested in background on RAF's targetting civilians should also check out the Lindemann plan. USAF's Curtis LeMay also adopted the same aiming for civilians in US' terror bombing campaigns.

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Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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While I agree that the carpet bombings were not the best way to end the war, and also of your general opinion of Harris, who was a first class ass, it is the context of this discussion I have an issue with. 

There have been german language "spams" going all over the internet describing this as a "war atrocity" and adding some colorful language claiming that afterwards the US bombers dropped down to "strafe people trying to escape." This and some of the other items appear to be propagated by some neo-nazi groups as well as most likely anti-american anti-war groups.  The point is, what do we learn from this event?  Is it being used to tar American and Brits?  To make the Gemran victims of the war equal to the jews who were slaughtered en-mass in death factories?  The problem here is one of context.  I believe it was a mistake to use this tactic, but ultimately the blame for all this death is more Hitler's than Harris'.


Post 2

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Yes, but a truth doesn't evaporate just because it has been used by NAZI's (which was spread by a worm, btw.). It is right that this virus and the message was initiated by a right-wing (close to the Nazis) nationalist group within Germany and they of course want to promote anti-US (but not anti-war) ideology.

I don't agree with their message, their thwarting of the truth and most likely their methods, philosophy and means. They are like any socialist, demagogues from the beginning. The rightfull condemnation of the Dresden bombings is used to give it some truthful claim. The reasoning that follows from that on is stupid and obviously typical nazi talk.

But you may not reject the Dresden bombing as a unnecessary act of cruelty, just because some demagogues of the right have used it to formulate their wicked ideologies.


Post 3

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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Max, I just wanted people to be aware of the context in which this is being promulgated.  Again, even though the war was known to the Germans as lost, they did not surrender, but let so many more of their people and their enemies die instead.  I think they should have surrendered to the Western Allies before the Russians arrived at the German border, and I also think the Allies should have bombed military and transportation infrastructure only, along with some of the crucial industry like oil, and not civilian populations, but then again I wasn't there and this is past. 

Now, we need to ask what we learn from this.  That is not to deliberately target civilians.  However, what you see now is this being used to claim by association that that is what the allies in Iraq are doing, when this is clearly the opposite being done - trying to keep civilian casualties to a minimum - and the enemy using this to shield themselves to boot.

Then to top it off, you have the various connections between Israel, Jews, Nazis, and how of course the US is controlled by the Jews... now the picture is clear about why this is being sent as propoganda.


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Post 4

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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About 1985 or so, my local public television station, WKAR-TV in East Lansing, ran classic movies on Saturday afternoons, styling them like old theater presentations.  This included newsreels.  I saw one newsreel shot from a camera inside a flighter.  It had a tough-guy voice-over.  This American pilot strafed a railroad train.  Then, he saw a farmer in a field.  "He's no friend of mine!" and down he went, machine-gunning the man and his animal.

About 1980 or so, I worked with a computer operator who told war stories.  On the plane back to the USA from Europe after hostilities one of the guys near him bragged or confessed that driving his jeep, he came up on an old couple walking along the side of the rode, swerved, and hit them both.

War crimes?  All wars are crimes. 

The crimes occured to the pilot, to the driver, before the crimes commited by them.


Post 5

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 6:38pmSanction this postReply
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In the SOLO article In Defense of Dresden, the author wrote:
Objectivists dismiss concerns over collateral damage during wartime, considering such damage as a ‘cost of doing business’ issue, going so far as to consider it even desirable as a way of  demoralizing the enemy and foreshortening a war. 
There is collateral damage and there is collateral damage. There is no rational or ethical justification for UNLIMITED force based upon a justified use of SOME force.

Those who rationalize unlimited force, say shooting a tresspasser who poses no serious threat, are likely to find themselves, in much of the civilized world, on the losing end of a criminal prosecution. Rightly so, in my view.
They rightly argue that attempts to shield civilians unnecessarily cost American lives
Minimizing risk to one's own life is not a license to wholesale slaughter of tens of thousands, though.
and that the civilian population of the enemy is not necessarily innocent. They are guilty in their support an immoral government and proffer their labor to the enemy’s war effort. But, while this is generally true... 
That is a collectivist argument. I cannot imagine anyone who values individual human life succumbing to this line of thinking.

Even in Nazi Germany, many Germans were opposed to Hitler and his policies. Some, even some in the military, lost their lives heroically trying to assassinate him. Are we to believe that the families of those men, including innocent children, are somehow stained with a collective German bloodguilt? That they deserved to die in a Dresden holocaust?

Many German citizens did not wish to be at war. Nazi Germany was a dictatorship, and imperialist policies were forced upon ALL Germans, even those who hated Hitler. They did not "support" his brutal regime, but to openly defy or oppose it was often tantamount to a death sentence, not just for them but for their whole family.

It is altogether too easy for armchair moralists to proclaim what decent Germans in the 1930s and 1940s "should" have done--when the Gestapo was arresting people in their neighborhoods on a daily basis, many never to be seen again--and in the apparent absense of that action proclaim them all collectively guilty. Old men and women, children, babies in the cradle, the ill, people without the skill or strength to participate in a resistance to a brutal dictatorship, these would be among those condemned with a collective wave of the hand.

One can make a case that in war, which is sometimes morally necessary, collateral damage and deaths are unavoidable, but not of the basis of a collective guilt argument.

I feel rather strongly about this, and have begun a thread in the General Forum: Collective Guilt.

Nathan Hawking


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Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 7:13pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan Hawking wrote: "That is a collectivist argument. I cannot imagine anyone who values individual human life succumbing to this line of thinking."

Then you need to read a bit more of SOLO.  See, for instance, "Are Civilians Guilty in Some Wars?"
(http://solohq.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0309.shtml)  Follow the comments of posters to that thread in related discussions in order to see similar opinions.

It would be understatement to suggest that those who advocate killing do not value individual human life, so I will not.



Post 7

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan I think you should have read the entire article which reaches the same conclusion you do in this instance.

But I would remind you of one thing of which you seem unaware, Hitler was democratically elected.


Post 8

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D:

Thank you for responding.
Nathan I think you should have read the entire article which reaches the same conclusion you do in this instance.
I read the entire article, Robert. I am aware that we apparently agree that wholesale slaughter of civilians is not automatically justified by a state of war.

What I am contending is the notion that it is EVER justified by pronouncements of collective guilt.
But I would remind you of one thing of which you seem unaware, Hitler was democratically elected.
Here you seem, once again, to be implying that because "Hitler was democratically elected," Germans bear collective guilt for his crimes against humanity. If that's your implication, you are dead wrong both factually and morally, I believe.

The point about collective guilt has already been made. Even if Hitler was elected by 80% of the vote, that does not make all Germans guilty and fit for incineration. How many babies and children voted for Hitler?

While unnecessary to refute your apparent moral implication, I also note that you're wrong in your historical claims.

In 1933 the Nazi party received a 44% vote, and only gained control of the Reichstag through a coalition with another party. Within months, through a series of adroit political maneuvers, Hitler managed to gain complete authoritarian control. The Communists were expelled, and the Nazi cabinet essentially replaced the Reichstag, taking orders directly from the Chancellor.

Nathan Hawking


Post 9

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 10:40pmSanction this postReply
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Has anyone here seen Fog of War, the documentary film based on recent interviews with Robert McNamara?  (For those unfamiliar, McNamara was a war planner in WWII, and later became Secretary of Defense under Kennedy, during which time he worked through the Cuban Missile Crisis and the onset of Vietnam).  McNamara has some interesting comments on the notion of bombing civilians in war.  I will refrain from sharing them since they're not fresh in my head, and I think you should just go see the movie rather than listen to my account of it. 

Post 10

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:00amSanction this postReply
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The bombing of Dresden was justified if, by justice, you mean confronting an abrogator of rights with the full consequences of their actions.

It is certain that if the US had developed the A-bomb before the war in Europe was at an end, then it would have been used in that theatre as well as in the Pacific. Hiroshima was a demonstration of the will of a free people to exercise the principle that sometimes one needs to be cruel to be kind. On the other hand, the Nagasaki bombing was a decision made, effectively, by the Japanese government. If they waited for a second demonstration of the resolve of the USA, might they have waited for a third, a fourth? It was up to them.

Children are sometimes smacked to teach them how to stay out of harm's way. The mind of the statist is childlike as it does not have a properly developed rational faculty. And, just as with a child, sometimes the statist needs to be smacked to show it the error of it's ways. Hiroshima was such a smack. Nagasaki was the price of continued irrationality.

While we may anguish (properly) over the horrible fate of innocents let us never forget who aggressed and who acted in self defense.

Ross Elliot

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Friday, May 20, 2005 - 4:59amSanction this postReply
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"Objectivists dismiss concerns over collateral damage during wartime, considering such damage as a ‘cost of doing business’ issue, going so far as to consider it even desirable as a way of  demoralizing the enemy and foreshortening a war." Well, it would be really valuable to have some quotations from Objectivists here--what did they say, where, who are they, why did they say it? I know this is not a scholarly forum but a hint, at least, would be in order.
        The only Objectivist defense of collateral damage I know of is, when in the course of properly defending oneself, one unavoidably inflicts damage on innocents, something for which it is the aggressor who is responsible. Extrapolated to war, this means when one defends one's country and its allies against, say, Hitler, an major military aggressor, one is not to be blamed for doing this effectively, which can kill many bystanders.


Post 12

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 5:29amSanction this postReply
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"And, just as with a child, sometimes the statist needs to be smacked to show it the error of it's ways. Hiroshima was such a smack. Nagasaki was the price of continued irrationality."

And by implicitly substituting '100,000 civilians' for 'statist' in the target of your 'smack', you've again demonstrated the collectivist nature of such arguments.


Post 13

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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Machan wrote:


The only Objectivist defense of collateral damage I know of is, when in the course of properly defending oneself, one unavoidably inflicts damage on innocents, something for which it is the aggressor who is responsible. Extrapolated to war, this means when one defends one's country and its allies against, say, Hitler, an major military aggressor, one is not to be blamed for doing this effectively, which can kill many bystanders.

I don't disagree with this assessment, nor did I think my article did.



Post 14

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
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Nathan,

Peracles, a very long time ago, said that you can ignore politics, but it will not ignore you.

My response to those that whine incessantly about America and it's evil government is that it not the government that has failed us, it is we who have failed government. 

Often, when faced with a choice, American's opt for short term gain.  An obvious socialist offers the voter a new road, more funding for the arts, or more financial aid for students.  Suddenly his politics do not matter we need that road.  Later, we are at a loss to understand why the government has strayed so far from the founders' intent?  We complain that taxes are theft and that the theft is too great.  Few understand that it all goes back to that road.

Now you may not have voted for the man or his road, but chances are you also did not work very actively to defeat him.  You were busy pursuing you own interests.  The question is what is in your greater interest.  We get the kind of government we deserve, just as the Germans did.  Is this what you mean by collective guilt?



Post 15

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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Ross Eliot wrote: "Children are sometimes smacked to teach them how to stay out of harm's way. The mind of the statist is childlike as it does not have a properly developed rational faculty."


First, the smacking of children has been discussed.  It does no good and it is not a rational response to "misbehavior."  Smacking teaches violence and creates resentment.  I point out that there is a strong correlation between people who were smacked as children and people who think that eradicating cities is a necessary evil, or  even a positive good.

I might agree that statists are even stupider than Objectivists because that makes me feel good, but the facts are not in line with that theory.  Statists are every bit as "intelligent" as Objectivists.

If disagreeing with Objectivism makes one a lower lifeform subject to proactive murder, then you better make sure you do your homeword in case the Selection Committee might be testing soon.


Post 16

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Mr Davison appears to have little understanding of the terms he used in this essay. In particular the term "precision bombing" refers to a technique used by the RAF throughout the war (from 1939.)They continued to develop these techniques and improved the accuracy but results were still disappointing.

An airman, be he Canadian, American or British, would normally apply the term `precision
bombing' to individually aimed high-level bombs falling within a circle of one or two hundred yards
of the aiming point, or to a stick of bombs laid in a line running within one or two hundred yards
of the intended bombing line.
 
The USAF did, of course, maintain the policy of attempting "precision bombing" during the war,
but with much less accuracy than its supporters care to acknowledge and as it will be shown,
the practice under war-time conditions seldom coincided with the theory - far from it.
 
In 1944 and 1945, (when, as we have seen from the Bombing Survey, by far the bulk of the
bomb tonnage was dropped) the Americans were forced 80 per cent of the time to abandon any
pretence of "precision bombing" and resort to the use of radar aids for their bombing.
 
Bombing on radar usually meant that the lead bombardier of their large formations did a "timed run" from the edge of a crude outline of the target city, on the screen of the H2S or H2X equipment (a British invention) and dropped his load on what he estimated was the right quadrant of the city. When the lead bombardier dropped his bombs, it was the signal for the bombardiers in all the other aircraft to drop theirs almost simultaneously. Thus, from a formation spread out over a very large area of sky, a deluge of bombs would head for the ground in a pattern precisely as wide and long as the formation dropping them. This was the true face of "precision bombing" four-fifths of the time, and it was unavoidable because of the vagaries of weather, cloud cover, and German smoke-generating equipment designed to hide the most important targets and preclude visual identification from the air.
 
The reputation of Sir Arthur Harris has been maligned by those who wish to benefit politically. In particular the socialists of the Attlee government were only too happy to disassociate themselves from the dirty business of "killing Germans".
 
 
 
"But as the years passed, memories faded and soon the
horrors and fears of Nazism receded, to be replaced by a
fanatical desire on the part of historians, sensation
writers, some journalists, and television writers and
producers to degrade and assassinate the character of the
commander and the one Command to whom they owe their very
liberty, and to pour out, unchallenged  and unchecked,
their scurrilous and, more frequently than not, inaccurate.
reports on a war which most of them never knew.  Harris
harboured no bitterness over this from his own personal
point of view, but he felt deeply hurt that those who
strived so hard in Bomber Command for victory and freedom
of the nation, many of whom gave their lives, should
suffer vilification through his person."
(Bomber Harris p.333)  


Post 17

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D:
My response to those that whine incessantly about America and it's evil government is that it not the government that has failed us, it is we who have failed government. 
Be careful not to make yet another collectivist argument. Not all who are critics of government should be lumped in the category of "whiners."

If you're going to take that tack, then throw in Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence!  That was the ultimate complaint against a government.

Your statement is self-contradictory. You complain about the complainers, yet you insist that "we" have failed the government. What, precisely, do you think critics of government are doing if not reshaping government?

America's government has engendered some of the most magnificent principles in human history. It has also sanctioned gross crimes against humanity, such as slavery and maltreatment of the native peoples. Anyone who does not recognize and speak out about both the good and the bad is not dealing honestly with reality.
The question is what is in your greater interest.  We get the kind of government we deserve, just as the Germans did.  Is this what you mean by collective guilt?
Is your logic:
  • We get the kind of government we deserve.
  • The Germans got the Nazi government.
  • ... therefore all Germans deserved to die in a Dresden-style holocaust?
If that's your argument, then yes, that is an argument for collective guilt, and it is a bogus argument.

This is not a difficulty concept. Any claim which holds that a person is culpable for the behavior of another because they share a race, nationality, religion, or region, etc., is making a collectivist argument.

That's fine if you're a collectivist or a statist. For an individualist who holds individual human life in high regard, though, taking that view is a fundamental contradiction.

Nathan Hawking


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Post 18

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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One needs to remember that Bomber Command started its operations when the German military machine had subjugated Western Europe and was threatening to eliminate the USSR. If that happened then nothing would have stood in the way of the German invasion of Britain. There wasn't time to fuck around worrying about the poor German civilian. Britain was a hair away from being defeated & occupied! There wasn't time to develop laser-guided munitions and thermal imaging equipment required to enable a bombardier to pick out industrial targets built in the middle of suburbia.

Harris & his Bomber Command took the technology and manpower they had available and used it to the best of their ability to help defeat the Nazis. Civilians died. That is unfortunate. What would you have Britain do? Surrender and allow Hitler to rule the Western Hemisphere to avoid inadvertently killing a single German Housewife with your crude and ungainly weapon?

The *reason* why the British & Americans adopted "carpet bombing" was that there was no other way to hit the targets. The technology wasn't up to it and wouldn't be for another 2-3 decades. Indeed, there was fuck all else the Brits could to carry the fight to the German homeland prior to 1944.

The British Army had had the shit kicked out of it in France, Greece, Crete, Libya, Egypt, Malaya, Burma, and Singapore. They didn't start regularly beating German field armies until 1943. And even when they did sort their army out - they still had to get that army back onto mainland Europe and across the Rhine before they could attack Germany directly.

As for Britain's poorly-equipped and under-manned navy, it was diluted by the need to secure sea-lanes across the Atlantic, the Med., and the Indian Ocean. In the Atlantic and Indian Oceans, the RN & Merchant Marine were loosing more battles then they were winning. In the Med., Malta was hanging on by its fingernails at the cost of slowly bleeding the RN white. But if Malta had fallen then it's likely that Suez would have gone with it.

It took the Allies until late 1943 to knock back the Axis navies to the point that their land operations could be supported, unimpeded, by sea.

So Bomber Command was the only weapon the Brits had. When Harris took over he inherited a force equipped mainly with 2-engined medium-bombers with insufficient range to carry a heavy bomb-load into Germany. Nor could they navigate very well by night, and they were suffering at the hands of the German night-fighter force.

Under Harris' command the RAF introduced technology and tactics to mitigate and even solve each of these problems. They had to start this process from scratch because nobody (on the Allied side at least) had ever attempted to subdue an enemy by aerial assault before. Thus Kurt's conclusion (Post 1) that Harris was a "first class ass" is stupid. Under his leadership Bomber command went from a force unable to regularly put a single bomb on a German city to being able to annihilate one in the period of about 1 year. That was the reason they hired him in the first place!!!

The point when area-bombing might have become immoral was when it was used in spite of the fact that better and less blunt weapons were available. With British, American and Russian Field Armies entering Germany there are good moral and military cases supporting the conclusion that the destruction of Dresden was unnecessary.

On the other hand:

(1) Had the destruction of Dresden resulted in an immediate surrender - as the destruction of Nagasaki did in the case of Japan - we would not be so quick to hang Harris in effigy. Indeed had the German leadership had listened to common sense (and the advice of significant German Generals i.e. von Rundstedt) and surrendered on or about the 15th of Feb then Stalin, in April 1945, wouldn't have had to send 6,300 tanks and 8,500 aircraft to immolate Berlin. How many civilians and military men would bombing Dresden have been saved in this case?

The answer is difficult to figure out. But look at what was left to do to defeat Germany: The war went on another 3 months after Dresden. The US and British Armies had yet to cross the Rhine at that point, they had only just reduced the Salient caused by the German Ardennes offensive (The Battle of the Bulge - launched at a time when everybody, except Hitler, thought that the Whermarcht was finished). The US Army captured the Bridge at Remagen on 7th March (the Brits didn't cross the upper Rhine until 23rd March) and encircled the Ruhr on the 4th of April where upon it undertook operations to destroy FM Model's Army Group B (an army of over 400,000 men). It would take US 1st Army until 18th April to reach the Elbe river and even then the Germans didn't surrender until 7th May, after the Soviets had taken the Reichstag!

(2) Might I also point out that the British mainland was under V-1 and V-2 attack from June 1944 to the end of March 1945? Over 4,000 of these cruise and ballistic missiles struck British cities during this time. Strange how no one mentions these indiscriminate attacks when they discuss the Destruction of Dresden. I suppose it is considered unsporting for the British to reply in kind...

In Conclusion:

The Allies didn't start the war and ALL they required for it to stop was Germany's unconditional surrender. Contrast this with the Germans: they weren't prepared to stop until they had done unto Russia (not to mention the Jews) what the Romans did unto Carthage. Using the most effective war machine the world had ever known, the Germans pursued the war and ignored every opportunity to end it. They stopped only after the Soviets occupied the rubble-mound that was once their capital. If you want to blame someone for Dresden, blame Hitler.

Harris believed that he could pound the German people into submission, and he believed he could do it without exposing the British infantryman to the sort of slaughter he witnessed during WWI. If he was mistaken, he wasn't the only one. His belief that air-power - alone - could subdue a nation, was held by commanders before him and after him. He shared this belief with his contemporaries both Allied and Nazi. He could not have known that only a bullet in Hitler's skull could induce the entire German military and civil machine to throw in the towel. After all, any normal megalomaniac would have chucked it in after France fell and the Russian's destroyed Army Group Center.

And lastly, I hope that this little rant has put some context into the 'Bomber Harris' debate. Context - as objectivists well know - is extremely important when it comes to drawing conclusions.
(Edited by Robert Winefield
on 5/20, 11:21pm)


Post 19

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Mr Winefield,
                      thank you for your thorough and well reasoned reply  to Robert Davisons' nonsense. Harris was a very great leader of men and deserves better than to be vilified in this way.


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