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Post 20

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Mr Baker - you are welcome, as are Bomber Harris and the aircrews he commanded.

They had a crappy job to do and they did it.

I believe that their efforts greatly retarded the German war machine. A war-machine more potent than any that went before it. Obviously Harris and his men set out to stop it completely and induce the German people to surrender. Yet revisionist twats choose to paint their inability to do so (for lack of technology not skill or daring) as a failure, use that as proof to support their theory that the RAF's efforts were futile and murderous.

Of course flattening German cities from a couple of miles up sounded like a good idea to people like Churchill and Harris! They had witnessed the slaughter of WWI infantry combat in Flanders first hand! I mean the last British field army that tried to invade Germany started at Mons in Belgium, expended nearly 900,000 British lives in four years, and made it all the way to Mons in Belgium. Jolly Good Show Wot!

I suppose one could always try the French solution: When in doubt surrender! That way someone else has to do the liberating and one totally avoids the moral dilemma of killing the enemy's non-combatants.



(Edited by Robert Winefield
on 5/20, 11:34pm)


Post 21

Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 12:13amSanction this postReply
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Robert W:

Thank you for putting a perspective on the times.
One needs to remember that Bomber Command started its operations when the German military machine had subjugated Western Europe and was threatening to eliminate the USSR. If that happened then nothing would have stood in the way of the German invasion of Britain. There wasn't time to fuck around worrying about the poor German civilian. Britain was a hair away from being defeated & occupied! There wasn't time to develop laser-guided munitions and thermal imaging equipment required to enable a bombardier to pick out industrial targets built in the middle of suburbia.

Harris & his Bomber Command took the technology and manpower they had available and used it to the best of their ability to help defeat the Nazis. Civilians died. That is unfortunate. What would you have Britain do? Surrender and allow Hitler to rule the Western Hemisphere to avoid inadvertently killing a single German Housewife with your crude and ungainly weapon?
Since the war, we've learned the specifics of a plan Hitler or one of his higher subordinates (I don't recall which) initiated to compile a list of all British politicians and community leaders, from the PM down to local levels, targeting them for liquidation after an invasion.

Hitler meant business, and few who heard the sound of bombers and buzz bombs believed otherwise.

I should make it very clear that I'm NOT arguing against a particular tactic in the absense of context and evidence.

I AM arguing two points:

1. The wholesale slaughter of civilians is not automatically justified by a state or act of war. As an extreme example, a state-sponsored bombing in Nazareth does not justify a nuclear strike against Tehran.

2. That all citizens of a country are not collectively guilty and responsible for the actions of some.

Translated, this means, in my view:
  • Bombing like Dresden may be reasonably debated as strategically necessary to the saving of lives in the long run;
  • Justification on the grounds of collective guilt is unreasonable;
  • Justification of unlimited force in all circumstances is unreasonable.
Nathan Hawking


Post 22

Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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"If that happened then nothing would have stood in the way of the German invasion of Britain."

Well, except for the English channel they'd somehow not managed to cross in the two years before fighting the USSR.

"Had the destruction of Dresden resulted in an immediate surrender..."

Had UK considered USSR equally an enemy as Germany when both invaded Poland...
Had Hitler attacked Russia on schedule...
Had Hitler not declared war on US post Pearl...
Had the Allies not made the demand for 'unconditional' surrender...
Had Italy developed an antimatter device...

then WWII may have turned out differently. It didn't. Millions of murders were committed, no nation involved had clean hands, and the world was for the time made less safe for fascism, more safe for communism.

"Over 4,000 of these cruise and ballistic missiles struck British cities during this time. Strange how no one mentions these indiscriminate attacks when they discuss the Destruction of Dresden."

Yes there were unjustifiable murderous missile attacks done by the Germans against UK in that time. They are not mentioned with the frequency of Dresden - and neither are Hamburg or many other RAF firebombings which each also had far greater death tolls then the haphazard V1 and V2 attacks. Dresden in particular has such prominence only because it is the record setter; with at least 136,000 corpses, it's the most devastating bombing in history.


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Post 23

Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Nathan wrote

What, precisely, do you think critics of government are doing if not reshaping government?
Just talking.

Is your logic:

  • We get the kind of government we deserve.
  • The Germans got the Nazi government.
  • ... therefore all Germans deserved to die in a Dresden-style holocaust?
No and that is not logical.

The US government is a representative democracy responsive to the consent of the governed, when citizens are silent consent is implied. Government, or more accurately those who speak for government as it exists today, believe they are doing the will of the American people.   They say they believe in the constitution and laud social security as the highest achievement of that ideal. They profess a belief in the great experiment launched by our founding fathers and hold the IRS sacrosanct.  There is a cognitive disconnect, but it originates with citizens themselves. 

If a nation's citizenry can not sort it out in their own minds and explain it to those they elect, there is no hope for this or any other nation.  The failure of citizens to accomplish this, for whatever reason, e.g. indifference, stupidity, laziness, whatever, results in authoritarian government.  We make the bed we lie in, or allow it to be made for us.


The German populace was not duped.  They listened to Hitler say this among other things:

 

 "It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole ... that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual. .... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture .... we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow man." [Adolph Hitler, 1933]
and a large majority voted for him.  Actually this quote fits nicely into a US political stump speech.  I've heard many like it.

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." [Hillary Clinton, 1993]

 

From an old essay of mine:

 

Plato is quoted as saying, "Good people need no laws to act responsibly, and bad people find a way around the laws." Benjamin Franklin addressed the issue by saying, “As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.” Theodore Roosevelt said, “No prosperity and no glory can save a nation that is rotten at heart,” and Judge Learned Hand offered: “Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.”

 

James Madison cautioned, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other", and Thomas Jefferson warned, "Peace, prosperity, liberty and morals have an intimate connection."

 

This theme was most clearly enunciated by Alexis de Tocqueville, a French historian, who in the 19th century concluded that, "America is great because America is good. When America ceases to be good, it shall cease to be great." De Tocqueville wrote at length about Americans and liberty, and was impressed with our predilection for keeping government at bay while happily pursuing our personal interests. He concluded that this made for a harmonious and industrious society where citizens were afforded the opportunity to succeed to the extent ambition inspired them.

 

The consensus is that for a nation to be a free and virtuous, the citizenry must manifest those qualities first. The whole is equal to the sum of its parts. The notion that we can be better collectively than as individuals is patently false. Morality begins with the individual and is reflected in how they are governed.

 

 

 

 



Post 24

Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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Robert D.

Bravo. Well said.


Post 25

Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D.:


Nathan wrote
What, precisely, do you think critics of government are doing if not reshaping government?
Just talking.


Much as you are doing here? That strikes me as a self-righteous dismissal of those who disagree with you.

It's also a classic instance of the ad hominem fallacy: denigrate the motives of those with whom you disagree. 

Is your logic:

  • We get the kind of government we deserve.
  • The Germans got the Nazi government.
  • ... therefore all Germans deserved to die in a Dresden-style holocaust?
No and that is not logical.


You deny it, yet you apparently go on to make a collectivist argument, implying a doctrine of collective guilt.


The US government is a representative democracy responsive to the consent of the governed, when citizens are silent consent is implied. Government, or more accurately those who speak for government as it exists today, believe they are doing the will of the American people.   They say they believe in the constitution and laud social security as the highest achievement of that ideal. They profess a belief in the great experiment launched by our founding fathers and hold the IRS sacrosanct.  There is a cognitive disconnect, but it originates with citizens themselves. 

If a nation's citizenry can not sort it out in their own minds and explain it to those they elect, there is no hope for this or any other nation.  The failure of citizens to accomplish this, for whatever reason, e.g. indifference, stupidity, laziness, whatever, results in authoritarian government.  We make the bed we lie in, or allow it to be made for us.


What you seem to forget, in your apparent rush to justify collective thinking, is that an authoritarian government can be established by FORCE by a minority, or by a majority who dominate a minority. Rarely does any government have universal consent, especially one as odious as the Nazi regime.

The German populace was not duped.  They listened to Hitler say this among other things:

 

 "It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; ... [Snip balance of collectivist Hitler quote.]" [Adolph Hitler, 1933]
and a large majority voted for him. 
 

Perhaps in your dictionary 44% is a "large majority," but not in mine. It is easy to lump everyone in "the populace."
...

James Madison cautioned, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other", and Thomas Jefferson warned, "Peace, prosperity, liberty and morals have an intimate connection."

This theme was most clearly enunciated by Alexis de Tocqueville, a French historian, who in the 19th century concluded that, "America is great because America is good. When America ceases to be good, it shall cease to be great."

 
Madison and Alexis de Tocqueville must have been overlooking the enslavement of some 4,000,000 people in their formulations of liberty and goodness.
 

The consensus is that for a nation to be a free and virtuous, the citizenry must manifest those qualities first.The whole is equal to the sum of its parts. The notion that we can be better collectively than as individuals is patently false. Morality begins with the individual and is reflected in how they are governed.


I find it ironic that you quote pro-individualist statements to, apparently, justify a doctrine of collective guilt.
 
You would apparently agree with the notion that "people get the government they deserve." As a catchy phrase, it has a lot of appeal. Unfortunately, it is also a collectivist fallacy.

Sometimes 49% of the people get the government 51% percent want. Sometimes 80% of the people get the government the 20% with more weapons want.

Do you consider Americans collectively guilty for crime of slavery?

I do not. Many were opposed to slavery from the outset. That they chose peaceful means, for the better part of a century, to attempt to abolish it does not mean they "got the government they deserved." It means that they were in the minority and chose lawful 'redress of grievances.'

Sometimes moral minorities do not prevail. That is a fact of human existence. To assert that this is invariably due to some character flaw is patently absurd. To assert that a moral minority gets "the government they deserve" to imply collective guilt is an insult to the memory of those who opposed slavery.

I'm sorry, Robert. Quoting lofty passages about America's goodness and the responsibility of the individual is NOT A FORMULA FOR JUSTIFYING A DOCTRINE OF COLLECTIVE GUILT.

Nathan Hawking

 


Post 26

Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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My opinion of Harris is based on the fact that he kept continuing to believe and promote the idea of bombing civilians as the means to win the war by destroying the enemy's morale long after it became obvious that this was not working.  There was ample evidence by then that attacks against railheads and other infrastructure was far more effective in winning the war.  I hold the men of who fought with the RAF in very high regard.  I just think that while he may have had good points, Harris over-promoted what his Bomber Command could do and therefore wasted resources that could better have been used elsewhere.

Post 27

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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Hawking,

Democracy is by definition collective.


Post 28

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D:


Hawking,

Democracy is by definition collective.

 

And collections are by definition composed of individuals.

See my forthcoming article on this subject.

Nathan Hawking


Post 29

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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No - aggregates are individuals.....collectives are homogenous.....

Post 30

Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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Robert:

No - aggregates are individuals.....collectives are homogenous.....
 
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=collection

NH


Post 31

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 12:11amSanction this postReply
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Nathan Hawking wrote:

Democracy is by definition collective.
And collections are by definition composed of individuals.
Why did you change terms?

'Collective' and 'collection' mean entirely different things.

In a collective the individual is lost and becomes just a part of the whole.

In a collection the individual retains his individuality.

Post 32

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:56amSanction this postReply
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I am for sanity and sense and against warmongering. Still and though I am no great friend of Schopenhauer I adhere to what he said about the death penalty: “I will be  fully against the death penalty… as soon as murderers stop murdering.”

 

May I, thus, I remind those who profess to be Objectivists yet defend peace at all costs and don’t consider civilians (apart from young people up to the time when they are legally considered to be full adults – around age 21) to be responsible for some wars, etc. of some of Rand’s own words? I think this will clear the issue:

 

From “Collectivized Rights” (1963) (See. “The Virtue of Selfishness):

 

“There are four characteristics which brand a country unmistakably as a dictatorship: one-party rule – executions without trial or with a mock trial, for political offenses – the nationalization or expropriation of private property – and censorship. A country guilty of these outrages forfeits any moral prerogatives, any claim to national rights or sovereignty, and becomes an outlaw.”

 

“Dictatorship nations are outlaws. Any free nation had the right to invade Nazi Germany and, today, has the right to invade Soviet Russia (Reminder: This was written in 1963), Cuba or any other slave pen. Whether a free nation chooses to do so or not is a matter of its own self-interest, not of respect for the nonexisting “rights” of gang rulers. It is not a free nation’s duty to liberate other nations at the price of self-sacrifice, but a free nation has the right to do it, when and if it so chooses.”

 

Oh, and by the way, for those interested in the purely technical detail of carpet and pinpoint bombing: Bombers during WWII were already very able to accomplish these pinpoint bombings. There is a scale model in Frankfurt am Main showing the total destruction of the city… excepting one solitary building standing in the middle of the whole devastation. It had been selected by the American Task Force as the place for their Headquarters, and they used it as such after invading Germany!


Post 33

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 3:52amSanction this postReply
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Oh, and by the way, for those interested in the purely technical detail of carpet and pinpoint bombing: Bombers during WWII were already very able to accomplish these pinpoint bombings. There is a scale model in Frankfurt am Main showing the total destruction of the city… excepting one solitary building standing in the middle of the whole devastation. It had been selected by the American Task Force as the place for their Headquarters, and they used it as such after invading Germany!
Sorry but I am not convinced! I think it is possible but unlikely. Can you supply additional confirmation from 8th grp records?


Post 34

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
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Manfred, would you like some help finding yet another thread to which to post the same message?

Post 35

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 7:09amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

I think he should post it in the discussion about JJ's article on the crappy buffet.

Bill


Post 36

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Baker:

I saw the scale model presented at the Römer (the council building of Frankfort) during a guided tour when I visited the city in 1985. Sorry, but I can't give you more details since I have no access to special sites of the Allied Forces nor do the webpages available on the Internet show a photo of the model. However, as far as I could find out, the city was used as the Headquarters site for General Eisenhower.


Post 37

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 7:29amSanction this postReply
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To Rick Passotto:

Now, wouldn't that be just fine! (Smiles, smiles, smiles!). After all, the whole theme has extended by now to so many different areas that it became impossible for me to find out which is the one most visited. So, following German precision, I decided to make my message available to everybody involved.

I promise, though, not to repeat this procedure.... but wouldn't it be sensible if only one forum is built for one theme and all its related connections (for example keeping everything under "In Defense of Dresden"?). This would also allow newcomers to one forum not to have to make a tour through all the forums to find out all the related ramifications.

Please don't be offended and take it on the light shoulder.


Post 38

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Rick:
Nathan Hawking wrote:

Democracy is by definition collective.
And collections are by definition composed of individuals.
Why did you change terms?

'Collective' and 'collection' mean entirely different things.


That's not true in ordinary use. I could have as easily said 'collectives are by definition composed of individuals.' Either is correct. Both refer to groups.

In Merriam-Webster

Collective: 1 : denoting a number of persons or things considered as one group or whole <flock is a collective word>

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=collective

Collection: ... an accumulation [group] of objects [etc.] ...

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=collection

In a collective the individual is lost and becomes just a part of the whole.

In a collection the individual retains his individuality.
Your distinction has no basis in the way the language is ordinarily used. We consider collections collectively, and collectives are collections--in this context, of people.

Not even the most rabid collectivist is unaware that the collective is a collection of individuals; the collectivist simply attaches greater value to the whole than to the individual.

Nathan Hawking


Post 39

Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Nathan Hawking wrote:
...the collectivist simply attaches greater value to the whole than to the individual.
That's what I said: "In a collective the individual is lost and becomes just a part of the whole."

Besides, you're dropping the context, which is politics. The words are not synonyms.

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