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Post 80

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Here's a belated reply to your post #60:

There's more than one way that a goal can be related to another goal at a higher level with which it is congruent (as opposed to being in conflict). One such relation is means to end. Another such relation is instantiation.

Some examples of instantiation are obvious but fairly trivial. If I have adopted a value of taking time to listen to baroque operas, then my goal of listening this evening to a recording of La verità in cimento by Vivaldi instantiates my value, rather than being a means to it. (Buying the CD, or borrowing it from a friend, would be a means rather than an instantiation.)

Others are less trivial. Mark Bickhard has argued that being at peace with yourself is a high-level value that has lots of possible instantiations. But is there a chain or series of goals that you can put together which, if realized, will constitute means to the end of being at peace with yourself?

From the flourishing standpoint, being rational or productive (such virtues involve the pursuit of high-level values) is an instantation of the higher-level value living a good human life. From a survivalist standpoint, being rational or being productive is a means to end of living a (good) human life.

The flourisher is then saying that being productive or being honest is an end-in-itself. But not that they are the entire ultimate end for a human being (some scholars of Ancient ethics call this the "final end," but that's just too redundant for my taste). For the ultimate end has other constituents or major instantiations.

By the way, your example of Gollum and his all-consuming attachment to the Ring works fine from a flourishing point of view. Leaving aside the supposed direct motivational effects that wearing the Ring has on mere mortals, Gollum values the Ring more than he values himself--but he also values the ring above honesty, integrity, productiveness, not killing his fellow sapient creatures, etc. (In fact, one of the effects of wearing the Ring is to extend his life, though definitely not to enhance his happiness.)

Robert Campbell







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Post 81

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

In response to your posts #66 and #74:

I hope that when you get a chance you will publish an article on
Rand's "emotional barometer" as a cybernetic or control-theoretic notion.

If Rand interpreted the standard of evaluation (in "happiness is the purpose, but life is the standard") as a number--and I would certainly take Robert Efron's testimony to that effect seriously--this needs to be made more generally known.

(One could argue against this interpretation because Rand's printed works don't announce it explicitly. But then one could also argue against Chris Sciabarra's position in The Russian Radical, because Rand did not refer to her method as dialectical. The former may be no wiser than the latter.)

A few other thoughts:

(1) What was the date of Binswanger's dissertation? And why would he have withdrawn it? (I find withdrawing a dissertation from University Microfilms a really, really strange thing to do.) Finally, it would be a pain to do the research, but wouldn't you still be able to find the bound copy in the library of the university where he was granted the degree?

(2) While empirical evidence is not required to prove the theorems of cybernetics, further evidence and argument are required to establish that living organisms are self-optimizing control systems, so the scalar "figure of merit" is required for their operation. What if organisms are recursively self-maintaining but not self-optimizing?

(3) I agree with your characterization of Nathaniel Branden as not being mathematically oriented. But why the discreet silence about the other members of Rand's circle? Leonard Peikoff is not mathematically oriented, either; he was around during the period when Rand was interacting with Robert Efron; and his presentations of Rand's ethics never so much as hint at a role for cybernetics. NB may have been primarily responsible for skipping over the mathematics before 1968, but after that it has to have been someone else's fault--unless you are positing some lingering Brandenian influence that those who deem him an utter unperson haven't been able to shake off in 37 years of trying.

(4) Your view of virtues as faculties that serve instrumental functions for inclusive fitness is worthy of more extended discussion.

For now, let me note that it definitely isn't Aristotelian enough or Thomistic enough for some people--and that Rand's own talk of "man's life qua man" is Thomistic.

Also, while the Ayn Rand Institute propounds the doctrine of the premoral choice to live (which presupposes an instrumental function for virtues), the ARI-affiliated are now inclined to denounce a wide variety of interpretations of Rand's ethics as "consequentialist." One of these is the Kelley-Thomas rendition that is usually regarded as the official TOC interpretation.

Robert Campbell





Post 82

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

First, about "If Rand interpreted the standard of evaluation (in "happiness is the purpose, but life is the standard") as a number--and I would certainly take Robert Efron's testimony to that effect seriously--this needs to be made more generally known."

Actually, Robert Efron confirmed to me something that struck me about Rand's definition of "standard" in "The Objectivist Ethics": 'A "standard" is an abstract principle that serves as a measurement or gauge to guide a man's choices in the achievement of a concrete, specific purpose.' A measurement is a number. "To guide choices in the achievement of a goal" describes how a quantitative measure of optimization is used in cybernetics (today, "control theory.") Once the connection was pointed out, I found it impossible to read Rand's definition of "standard" in any other way.

You write, "Rand's printed works don't announce it explicitly." But Rand does announce it explicitly - see above. One just needs to keep in mind, when reading Rand, her love of mathematical conceptualization. Another thing that Barbara Branden reported when I interviewed her at SOLOC 4 was that this was the biggest difference between Ayn Rand's cognitive style and Nathaniel Branden's - he just wasn't interested in mathematical conceptualization, which fascinated Rand.

About Harry Binswanger's dissertation: I just have not had the time to travel for this research, and I have other priorities for the near future. If you know someone at Columbia (or in NYC) who might help, I'd love to do the comparison. Harry Binswanger, Ron Merrill and I discussed a great deal with Robert Efron when we were together at MIT, and I would not be surprised to find that much of what Efron taught us influenced the original text of Harry's dissertation.

"What if organisms are recursively self-maintaining but not self-optimizing?" That depends on the evolutionary level of the species in question. It would be difficult to imagine what evolutionary pressure could have led to the evolution of the pain-pleasure mechanism, other than its usefulness for short-term optimization of behavior. If happiness is an assimilation of the previously evolved pleasure-pain mechanism to long-term optimization of the effects of behavioral choices mediated by human cognition, then happiness would be exactly the "evolved measuring instrument" that Rand postulated in the "barometer argument."

On (3) - within 2 years of the break, Rand also lost contact with Efron, Anderson and Greenspan, and at that point she just did not trust anyone enough to attract others with whom she might have discussed mathematical concepts, which Peikoff, like Branden, wasn't all that knowledgeable about. And she increasingly understood that she herself didn't know enough mathematics to make progress in a mathematical direction on her own. How much this influenced her to restrict the scope of her "philosophy" is anyone's guess.

You write that the 'ARI-affiliated are now inclined to denounce a wide variety of interpretations of Rand's ethics as "consequentialist."' I discussed this at some length with Diana Hsieh. ARI's critique concerns Kelley's misinterpretation of principles as weights in cost-benefit optimization by tradeoff, rather than as bounds on the solution space. Although Kelley shares his weights-in-tradeoff orientation with the consequentialist tradition, the use of principles as bounds on the solution space works better in everyday life (where computations must be quick and reliable) than the weighted cost-benefit optimization used by traditional consequentialists. My guess is that traditional consequentialists just didn't have enough knowledge of linear programming to understand this. But ultimately, Rand's identification of (life as the) standard as a measurement means that values and virtues have to be instrumental in the service of that standard.


Post 83

Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, thanks for the response. It reminded me of Sidgwick (in Methods of Ethics, p 413):

==============
... the doctrine that Universal Happiness is the ultimate standard must not be understood to imply that Universal Benevolence is the only right or always best motive of action ... it is not necessary that the end which gives the criterion of rightness should always be the end at which we consciously aim ...
==============

In this respect, we will have many ends to aim at, but only one ultimate one. What you seem to be saying is that some things are just part of the 'good life' (rather than means to a precise end). For example: You might say that, for many -- if not all -- flourishers, character-building would be a constituent of happiness.

Another way to say this is that character-building need not be directed toward a precise end (as it would with survivalists), in order to be of immediate value to the moral agent. Moral agents who have built more character have a notch that they can put on their belts -- a notch that says they're living rightly. Survivalists have no such notch-system. Everything they do must be viewed as a means to the end of (proper) human survival. Everything they do must be more precise than the general building of character that flourishes recognize as an esteem-building notch (ie. something of 'inherent' value).

Is that what you are saying?

Ed


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Post 84

Monday, October 24, 2005 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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Adam Reed wrote:

Actually, Robert Efron confirmed to me something that struck me about Rand's definition of "standard" in "The Objectivist Ethics": 'A "standard" is an abstract principle that serves as a measurement or gauge to guide a man's choices in the achievement of a concrete, specific purpose.' A measurement is a number. "To guide choices in the achievement of a goal" describes how a quantitative measure of optimization is used in cybernetics (today, "control theory.") Once the connection was pointed out, I found it impossible to read Rand's definition of "standard" in any other way.

 

... then happiness would be exactly the "evolved measuring instrument" that Rand postulated in the "barometer argument."

 

I'm very curious about how this "measurement" is determined. What is the unit of magnitude analogous to an inch, ounce, etc.? If there is no such unit, then how does one determine such number? If there is a mathematical formula, what is the formula and what are the inputs and outputs for it?


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Post 85

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:51amSanction this postReply
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Robert Campbell (post 70):

Rand's reference to the "emotional barometer" may have been loosely metaphorical
Adam Reed (post 74):

Rand's position, as I understood it from Robert Efron, was that "standard" in "life as a standard" is a number - a quantitative criterion to be optimized - and happiness is the faculty that provides the organism with an ongoing measurement of this number for its optimization. There is nothing "metaphorical" about it.

In post 82 Adam quotes Rand using "measurement or gauge" and again declares this "measurement" is a number. So in post 84 I asked him how this "measurement" or even a scalar ranking is done. So far his answer has been "blank out".  I decided long ago that Rand's "measurement or gauge" was purely metaphorical. As for Adam's "number", more colorful, less flattering terms come to mind.

I'm still curious, though. I wonder if Adam's maximum happiness number is 42 -- the answer to the ultimate question in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. LOL. To other curious readers, look about 30% down the page here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchiker%27s_guide_to_the_galaxy

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 10/28, 6:15am)


Post 86

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin - no blank out, just not a high priority for me. You seem to have a very primitive conception of measurement. No, I am not going to write a precis of the "Foundations of Measurement" here for you.

As for "metaphorical" - Ayn Rand wasn't the kind of writer, or the kind of thinker, who would pop a metaphor - much less an elaborate system of interlocking metaphors, if that is what you take "standard" as "measurement" and "happiness" as a "measuring instrument" and so on to be - into her definitive essay on what she considered the most existentially important result in her whole philosophical system.

Conservatives, and former conservatives, frequently deride mathematical conceptualizations. Ayn Rand saw it as part of their general deprecation of human reason, and she despised them for it. Her own regret was that she did not know enough mathematics to make even greater use of mathematical concepts in her own thought. Don't take my word for it - I think that Robert Efron and Barbara Branden are still alive, and if you talk with them they will tell you the same thing.

Ayn Rand made it very clear when she was using a metaphor. And when she didn't, she meant exactly what she wrote.


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Post 87

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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Adam Reed wrote:

You seem to have a very primitive conception of measurement.
LOL. Your impression is very inaccurate. The proper adjective is precise, not primitive. I don't use "measurement" metaphorically. I don't use it sloppily, like Stanley Smith Stevens did. Measurement is one kind of quantification, and I don't confuse it with the other kinds, or with labeling. No doubt a math education and quantitative career influence my views.
Conservatives, and former conservatives, frequently deride mathematical conceptualizations. Ayn Rand saw it as part of their general deprecation of human reason, and she despised them for it.
It isn't just conservatives. Even economists of the Austrian school have. On the other hand, and I think far more common, there are people who spout b.s. dressed in mathematical garb, trying to pass it off as scientific and/or objective. That is despicable, too.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 10/28, 4:59pm)


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