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Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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Interesting approach at defending her gedanken robot, taking invulnerability as a limit case. It's also interesting to remove questions of consciousness and just focus on a simpler plant-like machine. Thanks for putting 2 new twists on an old robot!



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Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 4:23amSanction this postReply
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A couple of Rand's critics (such as J. Charles King) have argued that a better example would be an immortal human being. 

If I became immortal I might not need a "code of ethics," but I would still be confronted with a range of choices.  I imagine that many of the virtues I now practice (such as honesty) would remain important even though my life in no sense  depends on it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? 




Post 2

Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 6:46amSanction this postReply
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I remember at least one sci-fi tale involving that - he committed murder most heiniously, and as just punishment, was committed to life without parole, solitary confinement...



Post 3

Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Parille,

Yes, to show the factor of vulnerability in human life as supporting the thesis that without the concept of human life the concept of human value would not be possible, one could try to imagine either an indestructible, immortal human-like robot or an indestructible, immortal living human.

Neither sort of immortal entity would be possible, strictly speaking, for the reason I gave in the article: such an entity would be a violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

My argument, in which I modified Rand's robot into an unattainable thermodynamic limit of a sequence of successively more durable robots, can be run not only for a plant robot (as I did), but for a snail-like robot or for a man-like robot. That is, the thought experiment in this general form can be run for the purpose of illuminating not only vegetative values, but appetitive values, and even intelligent values. (The life of a human being consists of  all three, as Rand observed in her essay.)

In constructing the gedanken for a snail robot, there may appear new  ways, not in play in the plant robot, that the concept (appetitive) value is not possible without the concept (animallife. Still more new ways in which (intelligent) value is not possible without (human) life may appear, when one constructs the gedanken for a man robot.

I ran the gedanken, using my iterative method for it, for the case of a plant robot. Could I just as well run the gedanken using a sequence of ever more durable living plants instead of robot plants? I think so. Energy supplies, repair materials, and instrumentation-and-control systems are engineering aspects essential not only to machines, but to all living organisms.

Consider gravitropism in certain living plants. Recall that that is the ability to respond to being uprooted by redirecting growth of a plant's roots in the direction of gravity. This redirection occurs a half hour or so after the plant is uprooted. Redirection is not a passive response to gravity, unlike an arrow shot into the air.

Researchers have found that the initial detection of the new direction of gravity with respect to the root occurs in the core of the root cap, the terminal half-millimeter of the root. (In some gravitropic plants, there may be additional detection farther back along the root.) The cells composing the core, or collumella region, of the root cap are rich in dense amyloplasts, organelles which are filled with starch grains. In the normal, vertical root, the amyloplasts reside at the lower end of each collumella cell. When the plant is uprooted, within seconds, amyloplasts in the collumella fall and settle along the new lower wall of each cell. This detection step is evidently the only step of the gravitropic response in which gravity directly pulls down a component (amyloplasts) of the root system.

I will stop the story of the gravitropic response there. I will not go on to describe how the new residence of amyloplasts on the lower sides of the collumella cells leads to a differential growth rate on the upper and lower sides of the non-vertical root near its tip, which results in the root growing in a curved way, downward, in the direction of gravity. What concerns us just now is the instrumentation in the instrumentation-and-control system that gives the root its gravitropic capability.

Zooming in on the instrumentation for this response in the living plant, we look for its failure modes. That is, we look for the ways in which the amyloplast triggering system can be made ever more durable against failure. Sensitivity of the instrument will decline with ever greater increase in durability. Or so I expect. At complete insensitivity, this instrument system of the living plant is no longer functioning. Here again, we find support for the thesis that without the concept plant life---vulnerable life---the concept vegetative value is not possible.




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Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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I would like to address a striking inconsistency between the article and my discussion-post #3.

In the article, I said we should not allow the plant robot to use humus in the soil, because that would make it depend on life directly in performing some of its functions, which would beg the question to be resolved by the gedanken. I also did not allow the imagined plant robot to be made of living cells. I then turned right around, and, in my discussion-post responding to Mr. Parille, I illustrated how a living plant that we made ever more durable would, like the ever more durable plant robot, support the thesis that without the concept (plant) life the concept (vegetative) value is not possible.

On further reflection, I think the requirement that the plant robot not use humus in the soil is superfluous. It does not beg the question the gedanken is to settle. The robot can be an entirely non-living entity even if it were to use humus to perform some of its functions.

The case is different with the requirement that the plant robot not be composed of living cells. We need that requirement to keep the plant robot definitely a non-living entity. Nevertheless, for the purpose of using the robot gedanken to show that vegetative values are possible only if the entity possessing them is vulnerable to disintegration, we can run the gedanken either by comparing an ever more durable plant robot with a real living plant or by comparing an ever more durable living plant with a real living plant. Both point to the conclusion that without vulnerability no vegetative values are possible.

Vulnerability to disintegration, of course, is not the only aspect of the concept of life on which Rand rested her concept of value. In a 1963 essay (authored by Nathaniel Branden, under Rand's auspice concerning the representation of her view), we find a further characterization of the sort of self-preservative action essential in the concept of life that is to inform the concept of value. "For every living species, growth is a necessity of survival." The element of growth in living activity is essential to the concept of life on which Rand rests her theory of value. See the first couple of pages of the essay "The Divine Right of Stagnation."




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Saturday, February 16 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
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One of the characteristics of living systems is that they act to maintain their dynamical state far from thermodynamic equilibrium. In short they act in such a way with respect to their environment that they do not stop operating and assume the ambient temperature of their immediate environment. In the case of humans we try to act in such a way as to maintain an internal temperature of about 98.6 degrees F.

This propensity to maintain the internal state of the organism in a restrict region of state-space is due to a set of homeostatic processes (negative feedbacks).

Now if one wishes to characterize this purely natural process as acquiring and hold values, I suppose one can do it. I prefer to see it as a physical natural process.

In any case, the quest for far-from-equilibrium status is doomed to failure in the long run. All living things die eventually. Thermodynamics at work. In the long run, entropy will be maximized universally.

Bob Kolker




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Sunday, February 17 - 5:06amSanction this postReply
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Quite so.

 

“You live and love, you die, you are forgotten, and every trace of you is erased. So it is eventually for all life and intelligence in the universe. Then is all value, significance, and meaning vanished from that dead universe of the far, far future. But this day, you and I are here, with vistas to attain and share, as we find them.”





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Post 7

Sunday, February 17 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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Stephen,

I remember this one ("Pride of Place"). I liked it very much and I still do. I remember E.E. Cummings saying "The only true profession of man is poet" [six non-lectures]. I tried a few poems when I was young (in my twenties). My favorite is:

I am the Cat and the Bird
I am the Hurricane and the Giant Oak
I am a Man and Pure Joy



Post 8

Friday, February 29 - 5:46amSanction this postReply
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I like your poem, Mike. Yes.




Post 9

Friday, February 29 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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Neil Parille remarked above:
A couple of Rand's critics (such as J. Charles King) have argued that a better example would be an immortal human being. 

If I became immortal I might not need a "code of ethics," but I would still be confronted with a range of choices.  I imagine that many of the virtues I now practice (such as honesty) would remain important even though my life in no sense  depends on it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Kathleen Touchstone worked this out in detail in her essay "Can Art Exist without Death?" It appeared in Objectivity 

V1N5. Here are its sections:

 

“Can Art Exist without Death” by Kathleen Touchstone

                         I.     Mortal Man . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1

                      II.     Limitations Other than Death  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

                    III.     Would Unlimited Time Have Value?  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9

                   IV.     Physical Infinities  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13

                      V.     The Psychological Make-Up of Immortal Man  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

                   VI.     Art Among the Immortal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21




Post 10

Friday, February 29 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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Very very interesting.... thanks much, Stephen....



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