About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Interesting approach at defending her gedanken robot, taking invulnerability as a limit case. It's also interesting to remove questions of consciousness and just focus on a simpler plant-like machine. Thanks for putting 2 new twists on an old robot!

Post 1

Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 4:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A couple of Rand's critics (such as J. Charles King) have argued that a better example would be an immortal human being. 

If I became immortal I might not need a "code of ethics," but I would still be confronted with a range of choices.  I imagine that many of the virtues I now practice (such as honesty) would remain important even though my life in no sense  depends on it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? 


Post 2

Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 6:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I remember at least one sci-fi tale involving that - he committed murder most heiniously, and as just punishment, was committed to life without parole, solitary confinement...

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Parille,

Yes, to show the factor of vulnerability in human life as supporting the thesis that without the concept of human life the concept of human value would not be possible, one could try to imagine either an indestructible, immortal human-like robot or an indestructible, immortal living human.

Neither sort of immortal entity would be possible, strictly speaking, for the reason I gave in the article: such an entity would be a violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

My argument, in which I modified Rand's robot into an unattainable thermodynamic limit of a sequence of successively more durable robots, can be run not only for a plant robot (as I did), but for a snail-like robot or for a man-like robot. That is, the thought experiment in this general form can be run for the purpose of illuminating not only vegetative values, but appetitive values, and even intelligent values. (The life of a human being consists of  all three, as Rand observed in her essay.)

In constructing the gedanken for a snail robot, there may appear new  ways, not in play in the plant robot, that the concept (appetitive) value is not possible without the concept (animallife. Still more new ways in which (intelligent) value is not possible without (human) life may appear, when one constructs the gedanken for a man robot.

I ran the gedanken, using my iterative method for it, for the case of a plant robot. Could I just as well run the gedanken using a sequence of ever more durable living plants instead of robot plants? I think so. Energy supplies, repair materials, and instrumentation-and-control systems are engineering aspects essential not only to machines, but to all living organisms.

Consider gravitropism in certain living plants. Recall that that is the ability to respond to being uprooted by redirecting growth of a plant's roots in the direction of gravity. This redirection occurs a half hour or so after the plant is uprooted. Redirection is not a passive response to gravity, unlike an arrow shot into the air.

Researchers have found that the initial detection of the new direction of gravity with respect to the root occurs in the core of the root cap, the terminal half-millimeter of the root. (In some gravitropic plants, there may be additional detection farther back along the root.) The cells composing the core, or collumella region, of the root cap are rich in dense amyloplasts, organelles which are filled with starch grains. In the normal, vertical root, the amyloplasts reside at the lower end of each collumella cell. When the plant is uprooted, within seconds, amyloplasts in the collumella fall and settle along the new lower wall of each cell. This detection step is evidently the only step of the gravitropic response in which gravity directly pulls down a component (amyloplasts) of the root system.

I will stop the story of the gravitropic response there. I will not go on to describe how the new residence of amyloplasts on the lower sides of the collumella cells leads to a differential growth rate on the upper and lower sides of the non-vertical root near its tip, which results in the root growing in a curved way, downward, in the direction of gravity. What concerns us just now is the instrumentation in the instrumentation-and-control system that gives the root its gravitropic capability.

Zooming in on the instrumentation for this response in the living plant, we look for its failure modes. That is, we look for the ways in which the amyloplast triggering system can be made ever more durable against failure. Sensitivity of the instrument will decline with ever greater increase in durability. Or so I expect. At complete insensitivity, this instrument system of the living plant is no longer functioning. Here again, we find support for the thesis that without the concept plant life---vulnerable life---the concept vegetative value is not possible.


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would like to address a striking inconsistency between the article and my discussion-post #3.

In the article, I said we should not allow the plant robot to use humus in the soil, because that would make it depend on life directly in performing some of its functions, which would beg the question to be resolved by the gedanken. I also did not allow the imagined plant robot to be made of living cells. I then turned right around, and, in my discussion-post responding to Mr. Parille, I illustrated how a living plant that we made ever more durable would, like the ever more durable plant robot, support the thesis that without the concept (plant) life the concept (vegetative) value is not possible.

On further reflection, I think the requirement that the plant robot not use humus in the soil is superfluous. It does not beg the question the gedanken is to settle. The robot can be an entirely non-living entity even if it were to use humus to perform some of its functions.

The case is different with the requirement that the plant robot not be composed of living cells. We need that requirement to keep the plant robot definitely a non-living entity. Nevertheless, for the purpose of using the robot gedanken to show that vegetative values are possible only if the entity possessing them is vulnerable to disintegration, we can run the gedanken either by comparing an ever more durable plant robot with a real living plant or by comparing an ever more durable living plant with a real living plant. Both point to the conclusion that without vulnerability no vegetative values are possible.

Vulnerability to disintegration, of course, is not the only aspect of the concept of life on which Rand rested her concept of value. In a 1963 essay (authored by Nathaniel Branden, under Rand's auspice concerning the representation of her view), we find a further characterization of the sort of self-preservative action essential in the concept of life that is to inform the concept of value. "For every living species, growth is a necessity of survival." The element of growth in living activity is essential to the concept of life on which Rand rests her theory of value. See the first couple of pages of the essay "The Divine Right of Stagnation."


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 6:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
One of the characteristics of living systems is that they act to maintain their dynamical state far from thermodynamic equilibrium. In short they act in such a way with respect to their environment that they do not stop operating and assume the ambient temperature of their immediate environment. In the case of humans we try to act in such a way as to maintain an internal temperature of about 98.6 degrees F.

This propensity to maintain the internal state of the organism in a restrict region of state-space is due to a set of homeostatic processes (negative feedbacks).

Now if one wishes to characterize this purely natural process as acquiring and hold values, I suppose one can do it. I prefer to see it as a physical natural process.

In any case, the quest for far-from-equilibrium status is doomed to failure in the long run. All living things die eventually. Thermodynamics at work. In the long run, entropy will be maximized universally.

Bob Kolker


Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 5:06amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

 

Quite so.

 

“You live and love, you die, you are forgotten, and every trace of you is erased. So it is eventually for all life and intelligence in the universe. Then is all value, significance, and meaning vanished from that dead universe of the far, far future. But this day, you and I are here, with vistas to attain and share, as we find them.”



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Stephen,

I remember this one ("Pride of Place"). I liked it very much and I still do. I remember E.E. Cummings saying "The only true profession of man is poet" [six non-lectures]. I tried a few poems when I was young (in my twenties). My favorite is:

I am the Cat and the Bird
I am the Hurricane and the Giant Oak
I am a Man and Pure Joy

Post 8

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 5:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

I like your poem, Mike. Yes.


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Neil Parille remarked above:
A couple of Rand's critics (such as J. Charles King) have argued that a better example would be an immortal human being. 

If I became immortal I might not need a "code of ethics," but I would still be confronted with a range of choices.  I imagine that many of the virtues I now practice (such as honesty) would remain important even though my life in no sense  depends on it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Kathleen Touchstone worked this out in detail in her essay "Can Art Exist without Death?" It appeared in Objectivity 

V1N5. Here are its sections:

 

“Can Art Exist without Death” by Kathleen Touchstone

                         I.     Mortal Man . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1

                      II.     Limitations Other than Death  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

                    III.     Would Unlimited Time Have Value?  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9

                   IV.     Physical Infinities  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13

                      V.     The Psychological Make-Up of Immortal Man  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

                   VI.     Art Among the Immortal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21


Post 10

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Very very interesting.... thanks much, Stephen....

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

From #4

The case is different with the requirement that the plant robot not be composed of living cells. We need that requirement to keep the plant robot definitely a non-living entity. Nevertheless, for the purpose of using the robot gedanken to show that vegetative values are possible only if the entity possessing them is vulnerable to disintegration, we can run the gedanken either by comparing an ever more durable plant robot with a real living plant or by comparing an ever more durable living plant with a real living plant. Both point to the conclusion that without vulnerability no vegetative values are possible.

Vulnerability to disintegration, of course, is not the only aspect of the concept of life on which Rand rested her concept of value. In a 1963 essay (authored by Nathaniel Branden, under Rand's auspice concerning the representation of her view), we find a further characterization of the sort of self-preservative action essential in the concept of life that is to inform the concept of value. "For every living species, growth is a necessity of survival." The element of growth in living activity is essential to the concept of life on which Rand rests her theory of value. See the first couple of pages of the essay "The Divine Right of Stagnation."

See also: last few paragraphs.

 

I spoke of growth being characteristic of the type of self-preserving action that is essential to the concept of life. Kant observed that, and further, he observed that growth is characteristic of the type of self-generating action that is essential to the concept of life. 

A tree also produces itself as an individual. It is true that this sort of causation is called merely growth; but this growth must be understood in a sense that distinguishes it completely from any increase in size according to {only} mechanical laws: it must be considered to be equivalent to generation, though called by another name. [For] the matter that the tree assimilates is first processed by it until the matter has the quality peculiar to the species, a quality that the natural mechanism outside the plant cannot supply, and the tree continues to develop itself by means of a material that in its composition is the tree’s own product. For though in terms of the ingredients that the tree receives from nature outside it we have to consider it to be only an educt, still the separation and recombination of this raw material show that these natural {living} beings have a separating and forming ability of very great originality . . . . (371)

 

In a watch, one part is the instrument that makes the others move, but one gear is not the efficient cause that produces another gear; [and hence] even though one part is there for the sake of another, the former part is not there as a result of the latter. That is also the reason why the cause that produced the watch and its form does not lie in nature (the nature of this material), but lies outside {that} nature and in a being who can act according to the ideas of a whole that he can produce through his causality. It is also the reason why one gear in the watch does not produce another; still less does one watch produce other watches, [by] using  (and organizing) other matter for this [production]. It is also the reason why, if parts are removed from the watch, it does not replace them on its own; nor, if parts were missing from when it was first built, does it compensate for this [lack] by having the other parts help out, let alone repair itself on its own when out of order: yet all of this we can expect organized nature {living nature} to do. Hence an organized being {a living being} is not a mere machine. (374)

Critique of Judgment (1790), W.S. Pluhar, translator. Square brackets are from the translator; curly brackets are from me.

 

See also ITOE Appendix, pp. 265–67.


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 12

Friday, October 3, 2008 - 1:43amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Eight decades after The Critique of Judgment, we find the distinguished embryologist Karl Ernst von Baer writing:

Without doubt the organism is a mechanical apparatus, a machine, which builds itself. The life process runs under uninterrupted chemical operations. Therefore the organism might also be called a chemical laboratory. But it is also the chemist in that it assembles the materials necessary for the continuation of the chemical operations from the external world. If it cannot have them, life ceases. However great the progress has been made in recent times in understanding the individual operations in the life process, something has always remained behind which guides them and which controls the physico-chemical processes: life itself. (Timothy Lenoir’s translation, pp. 272–73)

 

I concluded the article starting this thread as follows:

Our plant robot will need instrumentation and control systems. For any sort of instrumentation-and-control system, we can discover how its performance characteristics decline as we increase the durability of its components on and on. One decline I see already is in the sensitivity of instruments. An instrument with zero sensitivity is no longer functioning. We are beginning to see the richness of reasons that an indestructible plant robot could not have the values of an actual living plant, the reasons it is unable to act in teleological ways.

 

Rand wrote of values within plants and functions within plants. She did not write of plants acting “in teleological ways.” Rand reserved the term teleological to stand for intentional acts, for conscious actions of animals having an end in view. Plants do not act in teleological ways in that sense of the term. In many of the other senses of the term, too, Rand was not a teleologist in her conception of plant life.

A plant must feed itself in order to live; the sunlight, the water, the chemicals it needs are the values its nature has set it to pursue. . . . There are alternatives in the conditions [a plant] encounters [heat or frost, drought or flood], but there is no alternative in its function: it acts to further its life. (AS 1013)

 

Only a living entity can have goals or can originate them. And it is only a living organism that has the capacity for self-generated, goal-directed action. On the physical level, the functions of all living organisms, from the simplest to the most complex—from the nutritive function in the single cell of an amoeba to the blood circulation in the body of a man—are actions generated by the organism itself and directed to a single goal: the maintenance of the organism’s life.*

*When applied to physical phenomena, such as the automatic functions of an organism, the term ‘goal-directed’ is not to be taken to mean ‘purposive’ (a concept applicable only to the actions of a consciousness) and is not to imply the existence of any teleological principle operating in insentient nature. I use the term ‘goal-directed’, in this context, to designate the fact that the automatic functions of living organisms are actions whose nature is such that they result in the preservation of the organism’s life. (VS 16)

 

Rand took functionality in biology at this level to be the result of efficient and material causes; no final causes at the nonconscious, physical level. In “Causality v. Duty” she contracts the Aristotelian concept of final causality to animals, specifically, to animals who engage in conscious ends-means cognition (PWNI 99).

 

Nevertheless, Rand spoke of self-generated, self-maintaining, goal-directed action as essential to all organisms. These characteristics distinguish living action from inanimate action, and they are the fundamental characteristics of living entities as living. In Rand’s journal The Objectivist (1968), Robert Efron maintained that there are “fundamentally different principles of action (causal factors) found in living as contrasted to inanimate entities” (7). He is highly doubtful, moreover, that all of the actions of a living entity can be entirely “accounted for, described by, and deduced from those laws of physics [and chemistry] which are entirely derived from a study of inanimate entities” (7).

 

Goal-directed vegetative actions would include not only the tropisms such as the gravitropic root response described in #3, but the development of a multicellular individual organism from a seed or single cell. For tropisms and development, and all other vegetative functional activities, in Rand’s view, goal-directed designates not a teleological principle operating in insentient nature, rather “the fact that the automatic functions of living organisms are actions whose nature is such that they result in the preservation of the organism’s life” (VS 16).

 

The goal-directedness of vegetative actions under Rand’s conception is not the Aristotelian concept of organic final causality. Allan Gotthelf asks: “What, precisely, does Aristotle mean when he asserts that the coming-to-be (or any stage in the coming-to-be) of a living organism is for the sake of the mature, functioning organism which results?” (1987, 207). For Aristotle, in complete generality, changes are to be explained by the nature of the entities involved and by their specific potentials for being changed and for inducing change (209–11). Prof. Gotthelf argues that for Aristotle:

The development of a living organism [say, from an acorn to an oak] is not the result of a sum of actualization of element-potentials [specific potentials of earth, water, air, fire] the identification of which includes no mention of the form of the mature organism, but is in fact the actualization primarily of a single potential for an organism of that form, an actualization which incorporates many element-potentials, but is not reducible to them . . . . The irreducibility to element-potentials of organic development is the core of the meaning of the assertion that the development is for the sake of the mature organism, and thus the core of Aristotle’s conception of final causality. (213)

(Although essential specification of element natures and potentials “does not make reference to the form or nature of the living organism as a whole,” Gotthelf is inclined to think that for Aristotle “the elements have (irreducible) capacities to be worked up into such wholes, and that such capacities may be seen as part of their natures as the elements they are” (231).)

 

Rand evidently doubted the full reducibility of biological explanations to principles of physics and chemistry. In that her view was similar to Aristotle’s. But she had the lay person’s modern physics, chemistry, and biology in her conceptual framework. She did not accept Aristotle’s general conception that changes such as motion are to be seen as passages from potentiality to actuality nor the division he makes between form and matter (ITOE App. 286). So Rand should reasonably resist much of Aristotle’s account of vegetative goal-directedness as actualization of a target potential.

 

Subsequent to the Scientific Revolution, one formulation of teleology and final causality in vegetative life was the idea of a vital force emergent from the forces of physics and chemistry, an emergent force that effects organic organization and goal-directed action. Examples would be Johann Friedrich Blumenbach’s Bildungstrieb (formative drive [1781]) or von Baer’s Gestaltungskraft (whole-force [1827]). (See Lenoir 1982; Richards 2002; Huneman 2007.)

 

In The Fountainhead Rand once used (here) the phrase vital force. But in writing about her developed ethical theory, inaugurated in 1957, she never uses that phrase in characterizing its biological bases. She relies on the term function. Vegetative functional activities can be seen as markedly different from the physics- and chemistry-activities of inanimate matter giving rise to those functional activities, without postulating a new kind of (teleonomic) force emergent from the forces of physics and chemistry. Furthermore, the development of an acorn into an oak does not require postulation of teleological potentials in the acorn (ITOE App. 267, 284–86). The seed has biotic structure. Non-teleological physics and chemistry within that structure can precipitate growth and new structure having functions in the current and future survival of the developing organism.

 

Carl Bergmann and Rudolph Leukart, researchers in anatomy and physiology, write in their monumental text of 1852:

Within plant life, conditions are offered which permit the affinities between carbon dioxide, oxygen, and nitrogen to come together to form organic compounds. In plants and animals, organic matter is everywhere chemically transformed in regular patterns, because the conditions for its breakdown and transformation are provided in the proper sequential order. At the same time, this process is a requirement of the plan of the organism within which the organic matter is formed and for which it is purposeful [zweckmässig]. (Lenoir’s translation, p. 174)

 

Zweckmässig could also be translated as functional.

 

 

References

Efron, R. 1968. “Biology without Consciousness—and Its Consequences.” The Objectivist (Feb):5–14.

Gotthelf, A. 1987. “Aristotle’s Conception of Final Causality.” In Philosophical Issues in Aristotle’s Biology. Cambridge University Press.

Huneman, P., ed. 2007. Understanding Purpose: Kant and the Philosophy of Biology. University of Rochester Press.

Lenoir, T. 1982. The Strategy of Life: Teleology and Mechanics in Nineteenth-Century German Biology. University of Chicago Press.

Rand, A. 1957. Atlas Shrugged. Random House.

———. 1964. The Virtue of Selfishness. Signet.

———. 1969–71. Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, Appendix. Meridian.

———. 1982. Philosophy: Who Needs It. Signet.

Richards, R.J. 2002. The Romantic Conception of Life: Science and Philosophy in the Age of Goethe. University of Chicago Press.

 




Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Friday, January 23, 2009 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

See also:

How Life? (How Value?)

Chaos, Order, and Life of the Cell



Post 14

Friday, January 23, 2009 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Flip this around.

Universal observation; gradients pretty much drive everything.

Vegetative actors seek and/or consume and/or are driven by 'gradient' all the time in the Universe. Bacteria, rocks, chemical reactions, planets, comets. When doing so, do vegetative actors 'value' gradient?

Assuming we are more than simple gradient seekers, we can yet be gradient seekers. So, when we engage in a similar activity, in this universe, as it is, as vegetative actors that seek gradient, are we doing something yet different than vegetative actors that seek gradient? I know I'd like to think so.

Our bias is, we claim to be aware of our circumstances and mortality, as that which drives us to seek and advantage gradient.

In vegetative actors that yet seek gradient, they are responding to some cruder from of physical wiring, or in fact, simple physical laws, the universe as it is.

Is the difference between cruder vegetative actor wiring that seeks gradient, and our seeking to advantage gradient as a value a fundamental step difference or simply a very large difference in degree and kind? Ie, we've evolved to our present degree and kind of gradient seeking, but are yet still of the class 'gradient seekers?'

A fundamental difference is at least, we'd like to think that it is a fundamental difference, while a vegetative actor would have no opinion on that.

Yikes.

regards,
Fred

Post 15

Saturday, February 14, 2009 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Following on #12

Rand and Evolution


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More about those plants:

Plant Allometry
The Scaling of Form and Process
Karl J. Niklas (Chicago 1994)

The Evolutionary Biology of Plants
Karl J. Niklas (Chicago 1997)



(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 2/14, 12:21pm)


Post 16

Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

More light:

Modeling Biology
Structures, Behaviors, Evolution
Manfred Laubichler and Gerd Müller, editors
(MIT 2007)

From Embryology to Evo-Devo
A History of Developmental Evolution
Manfred Laubichler and Jane Maienschein, editors
(MIT 2007)
TOC




Post 17

Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm curious, Stephen, why do you recommend the History of  Developmental Evolution book, From Embryology to Evo-Devo?  Have you read it, or had it recommended by someone?

Post 18

Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 10:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Mindy, I only just learned of this book. From the Table of Contents and the publisher’s summary, it looks like a good one to add to my collection on the history of evolution. I will want to integrate this aspect of the history in the twentieth century with the story I know from the nineteenth.

Of course part of my motive for learning biology is always for the sake of ethical theory.
A, B, C, D, E



Post 19

Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 5:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Fred,

I'd say that human valuation is more than acting to gain or keep something, though defining value as that which one acts to gain or keep is correct (because it universally applies to the living), it only deficiently explains human valuation.

Vegetative actors like plants grow leaves and grow tall to get more sunlight, they grow roots to get more water and minerals. They act to gain and keep things, but they don't value 'gradient' in a human sense of value. We're aware of circumstance and mortality, like you say, so we're different. It means something special for a human to value. We consciously order our actions or lifestyles toward a goal -- we (alone in the animal kingdom) choose to value.

Now, if you're asking whether we're different when we vegetate -- then I don't know about that. I just know we're different when we value -- different from all other known life or material. A human at rest may be almost exactly like an animal at rest, or a stone at rest. We're not different, though, due to "vegetating differently" -- according to Aristotle and Rand -- we're different because we do so much more than vegetate. Things no other known life form does.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 2/17, 5:57am)


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.