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Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 4:13amSanction this postReply
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On the whole, I do not believe there is such a thing as "harmful" art. Art cannot "harm," it can only express. There certainly can be hateful art, but a great deal of the time this is really not art but propaganda. When you see a guy down south selling little porcelain black guys eating watermelons. When you see a work commissioned by a dictator that replaces the local gods with his image. Hitler's lavish film productions. Piss in a jar isn't harmful art, it's just a crude statement about the art world, and a cruder statement about what the artist is about.

And, there is art that is childish, uninformed, repetitive, and just plain goofy. It makes me uncomfortable and embarrassed-feeling to see the efforts of some artists, because it often reveals immaturities and other personality defects that I really don't want or need to see.

This has been gone around and around for a long time hereabouts, of course. As a point of reference, I will say that most if not all of the art that is considered "good" art by those discussing it here is almost always art that I love dearly. The problem begins when we start moving out of the areas of patriotic art and romantic realism. Often, a deeper understanding of art history is required in order to gain context for the piece; what elements the artist was trying to do in terms of pushing the envelope, in terms of modifying existing elements. In other words, in terms of how they went about trying to innovate, do something that had not quite been done that way before. To add something new to any of the arts is a difficult task- you are doing it in the shadow of all those who came before you. The truth is that actual innovation in art is a needle in a haystack- generally we are dealing with skillful recombination/application of existing elements.

A lot of Objectivists seem to not be content to realize that their taste in art is a taste that is absolutely appropriate for them, but does not mandate total standards. Artists, musicians, and writers do not take kindly to guidelines, because it cramps how they work. Suddenly, they must please others, not themselves. Now, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am convinced that a lot of art, music, and writing that is done clearly shows that those who did it have not done their due dilligence, they have not studied what came before them. Often this is accompanied by a rather arrogant, pseudo-self-esteem-laden rationale about "not wanting to be polluted," etc. I call it laziness. It is true that you have to be careful about being overly derivative. When you are exposed to something that really trips your trigger, it is going to want to heavily affect your style- you will not be working with a rounded sample of all your influence, but more of what you just brushed up against. Being mindful of that is one responsibility of the artist.

A couple of comments about the pieces you selected as "harmful".

1. "Passion". This is not an "extremely disfigured woman". It is a totem symbol, probably the most common one in  human history, which is the fertility goddess-type form. Like this:
 If you dig around on anthropology websites, you will quickly discover that it is almost identical to dozens if not hundreds of ones just like it, created thousands of years ago. I'm not sure what's up with the bar thing, my guess is it is sort of a modern-looking halo that says "but a modern artist did this". This is not harmful art, but it is sorely lacking in innovation. Cities end up commissioning all kinds of things they think are just "abstract", mainly because they are hideously PC when they buy art for public places. I shudder at the commission that got paid for this thing. Innovation level: 1% Derivative level: 99%.

2. "The Broken Column". You couldn't have pulled something more out of context vis-a-vis the total body of her work than this piece by Frida Kahlo. Frida Kahlo was not a Gothic artist, she was a Latin artist, known for her many, many self-portraits. Obviously she was not having a good time when she painted this one of herself. Not all art is required to function as standalone, although that's nice. The only way to really get what a heavy self-portrait painter does is to look at a lot of their self-portraits. Actually, you should look at all of them, along with other pieces by them.
I would suggest spending a little time at one of the Frida Kahlo sites (if you haven't), or maybe watching the movie about her, if you want to get into what she was all about. She was an extremely passionate artist, though tortured. Not one of my favorites, but I admire a great deal of her work, particularly in how she uses colors. She paints birds beautifully.

Best Regards,
rde


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Post 1

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
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I have to associate myself with Ricks remarks.

Sense of life is not a valid criteria for evaluating art.  Emotion is not cognition.  One has to know a great deal to evaluate what is good and bad art.  It is possible to recognize something as a work of art and, yet, not like it personally.


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Post 2

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Gosh, I like a lot of Frida Kahlo's work. She must have painted that one when she caught her husband cheating on her again. Or maybe she was reminiscing about how she about died from a broken back in a terrible accident when she was young. She didn't die and started painting instead. The painting is of herself, that uni-brow is an unmistakable feature of Frida's face.  

 I could take a look at that painting and think to myself  "Wow, how does she manage to stay upright with a broken back?? Must be some kind of inner strength keeping her going."  That's how I choose to look at it. I see the straps as representing the ideas that keep her alive, not things that tie her down.  They don't go around her arms or hands, which are free, they go around her heart, they're keeping her "together."

The mud and soil in the background represent "potential." Just my view, however.
The sky could clear, or it could storm, but coming from a traditional Mexican family, it probably only shows her cultural interest in bright colors, which she used a whole lot of in her work, something I enjoy, myself.

 I try to look at an artist's collection, over time, and make a judgement call that way as to whether or not the overall ideas expressed were "harmful."  This painting is the least of things I would call "harmful."  I personally view it as inspiring.

Teresa 


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Post 3

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Rich, a modern form of fertility goddess from the past: yes. A concrete form of the emotion passion: no.

Teresa, Biography 1, Biography 2. Her last diary entry: "I hope the end is joyful - and I hope never to come back - Frida." or "I hope the leaving is joyful and I hope never to return." Her life and her work portray the same themes as the Gothic movement: suffering, death, disease, and deformation. I'm not saying "There is absolutely no good that came out of her paintings", instead I'm saying "When a person adopts this viewpoint of themselves, their life becomes an expanse of suffering. The Gothic movement is one that is generally harmful to man, one that glamorizes and praises destruction."

Post 4

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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"I hope the leaving is joyful and I hope never to return."
You are reading too much into this.  All men are mortal, why would one not want one's death to be joyful instead of painful/sad and she hopes there is no afterlife or reincarnation.  Os believe there is nothing after dead, she's hoping it is true.


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Post 5

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Dean, the woman was not a Goth. Heavens, I'm not even sure how aware she would have been of Gothic art. This woman painted through an immense amount of suffering. And yes, you often see the pain in the work, but you also see the joy. Expression is first and foremost about being authentic. There is no one that ever painted like Frida Kahlo, her work is instantly recognizable. There is a great honesty in her work. Her elements are organic and indigenous to her culture, and that is one reason she is considered one of the finest that ever came out of that region. Latin, Southwestern, South American (whatever you want to call it) art is pretty easy to spot, because of the use of color, and its primacy. These are generally very passionate artists.

Art is not always about overtly lifting people up. Consider a simple example, like the Mona Lisa, which is unarguably a masterpiece. Where is the passion in it? I see it, do you? Consider the two basic elements of comedy, and tragedy. Shakespeare worked in both, with brilliance, but I think it's fair to say that he worked a hell of a lot of tragedy. Was Shakespeare Gothic in his thinking?

Life is always paradoxical, there is always the sadness and suffering, and there is always the joy and the passion. Would you have we artists limit how we express with what life brings to us, and how we respond to it? Now, don't get me wrong, I do have an axe to grind with modern "Goths". I mean, there are the hobbyists, and that's all fine. But, for the most part, I find the modern Goths to be as you say- their answer to living is that dark, detached sad thing. Honestly, I think they are mostly a bunch of whiny narcissists who like feeling sorry for themselves (typically in groups, at coffeehouses, with coordinated fashions). The music is dated and recycled, and the art is mostly just regurgitated stuff they pass around. A lot of them don't even understand the significance of the symbols they mix and match and accessorize. They're...confused, metaphysically.

But that's not the real Gothic period, is it? The only stuff I can still resonate to in that period is some of the fiction, and really now that I think of it that would be on the tail end.

The architecture, well, I don't need to go into that here of all places, do I? It was OK then, stop making it now. The Gothic period was heavily driven by the fearful, dark side of Christianity. Still, though, artists were able to punch through it once in awhile. A good artist can punch through even the most oppressive style, here and there.

The fertility goddess/passion thing: interesting topic. It depends on how you look at that form. Many people find passion in it, but it is not limited to erotic passion. It is a symbol of life, of rebirth and regeneration. My guess is that the artist titled that piece the way he did because he was trying to get it by someone. There was some interesting symmetry between the figure and the bottom platform piece. But really, it just didn't get it for me either. Seen better.


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Post 6

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote,

"How can art harm a man's life? At first this question seems preposterous. Art in itself doesn't literally physically attack anyone, steal, murder, etc, so what can be bad about art? The answer is that art can spread harmful ideas, attacking a man's ability to think and enjoy life."
I tend to agree that art can be harmful.

The first time that it deeply resonated within me that art might do serious harm was a couple of years ago when I witnessed several Objectivists on the old SOLO Yahoo group, including Lindsay Perigo and Barbara Branden, sneering at artist Marc Quinn's sculpture of Alison Lapper, a physically deformed, pregnant thalidomide victim. The sculpture quite clearly represents the triumph of the human spirit over physical disability, and implies victory over self doubts caused by the social callousness that disabled people face throughout their lives. But, not only were the Objectivists who commented on the sculpture incapable of recognizing the obvious heroic content of the form, ironically, a few of them engaged in precisely the type of vicious behavior that the sculpture's spirit was represented as having risen above. One poster even went so far as to call Lapper a "stupid, ugly, armless, pregnant bint." If Rand hadn't praised The Miracle Worker, I wouldn't be surprised to see such Objectivist zealots showing similar levels of compassion for the character of young Helen Keller ("God, what a stupid little twat that blind, deaf dingbat was! Such ailments are not proper subjects for life-affirming art. Rand's heroes didn't have such flaws, so including them in a work of art is a monstrous attack on all values." etc.).

Since Rand's art has likely been a very significant factor in creating such angry zealots, it seems pretty clear that art can indeed be harmful. It appears that an unfortunate result of Rand's art has been to destroy some of her followers' "ability to think and enjoy life."
J



Post 7

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
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The purpose of Art is for contemplation... as such, what kind of mind would care to have that Frida work on the wall to see and contemplate day after day - hardly one with much a positive sense of life...  as a psychological study in therapy, yes, is of interest - but beyond, do question...

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Post 8

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 8:48pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan, I'm not Lindsay Perigo. Frida Kahlo is not Hellen Keller. A sculpture of Alison Lapper, a physically deformed, pregnant thalidomide victim is useless if Alison is just standing there. What did Alison do? What was she worth? This would be something worth making a sculpture of.

Rich, I agree Frida is not exactly the modern Goth movement. Look at her life. As far as I can see, she didn't make it worth living. All I've read about is her suffering, and her paintings about her suffering. Just make those straps black, make her skirt purple, and give her black eye-liner. She is Goth dressed in Latin American culture. Honestly, (my honest curiousity) what has Frida done that is of value to anyone?

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Post 9

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 9:24pmSanction this postReply
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Riche said: “On the whole, I do not believe there is such a thing as "harmful" art. Art cannot "harm," it can only express. There certainly can be hateful art, but a great deal of the time this is really not art but propaganda.”

 

Just as the inhaling of fumes that arise from a fire can cause damage to our physical being, so too can the inhalation of life-negating art cause damage to our spiritual being. Man exists at a conceptual level of awareness, his mind integrates into his consciousness that which his senses perceive. Whenever a man views a work of art, his consciousness will be altered by the fact that he has just experienced another way of looking at the world, and by the verdict that that view of world has just pronounced on his person.

 

So anytime someone is exposed to a concretization of the debased, banal or unintelligible: he is harmed. The harm varies in degree, from momentary disgust to the permanent damage of a person’s very core. The depth and longevity of the harm is determined by the degree of authentic self-esteem the person possesses. Children and teenagers, with their raw and unformed sense of their own value, they in particular are vulnerable to long term harm.

 

But let me put say this another way: It’s difficult to walk through a field of manure and not get at least a little bit on your shoes.

 

Describing hateful art, as not really art - but propaganda, is to draw an artificial line between consciously directed hatred, and reflexive hatred. It is an artificial line because in reality the two are two sides of the same coin. An artwork need not be an overt social or political statement in order to be propaganda. The intent of propaganda is to negate or stifle mans ability to think; therefore the second-hander as an artist, is a propagandist by default.

 

George


Post 10

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Post #9 = Brilliant
(Edited by Newberry on 12/04, 10:15pm)


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Post 11

Sunday, December 4, 2005 - 11:57pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,
Apparently you missed the fact that I was agreeing with your view that art can be harmful. The purpose of my post was to provide examples of cases in which people appear to have been harmed by art -- something which your article failed to do. You simply made the unsupported assertion that art that you don't like, or art about which you've apparently assumed everyone else must share your negative interpretations and evaluations, is harmful. Since you neglected to include examples in which real people have been lulled into acts of evil because they didn't avert their eyes quickly enough from Frida Kahlo's paintings, I just thought I'd be supportive and offer examples of art-harm that I may have witnessed. Although I wouldn't call the events that I related hard evidence, I think they could at least be seen as strong indications that Rand's art may have harmful, brain-washing effects on many people.

J


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Post 12

Monday, December 5, 2005 - 7:08amSanction this postReply
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All of which goes to prove what I said earlier:  Sense of life is not a valid criteria for evaluating art. 

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Post 13

Monday, December 5, 2005 - 9:05amSanction this postReply
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I've never inhaled any art that hurt me, noxious though some of it has been.

And even if it were so, what would the answer be? "Surgeon General Warning: Watching The Texas Chainsaw Massacre may be dangerous to your health."?

Another standards and practices committee?

Retraining camps for rogue artists?

Dean: I know a few people that feel more enriched in their lives by being able to view Freda Kahlo's work. It makes them happy. On the business side, it seems to do a good book, card, and postcard business, as well.

best,
rde


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Post 14

Monday, December 5, 2005 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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Here here. The worst harm is done to the greatness in art. Affirming or pretending that abstract art, eg Pollack, Dadaism (arg the list is endless), for example is great and meaningful or profound destroys the good, it reduces great art to nothingness! It clouds beautiful and meaningful art. It at best ignores the truly talented creators and subtly (and not-so-subtly) mocks them. All that artspeak about empty works of so-called art has led to an emptiness in art culture. Art has lost all its meaning. Its infuriating.

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Post 15

Monday, December 5, 2005 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Suppose I've been in a crippling car wreck, my back's been broken and I will never walk again.  I get depressed, and since I was an aspiring Olympic gymnast and life as I knew it is literally over, suicidally so.  Then I see Kahlo's The Broken Column.  Far from diminishing my sense of life, or forcing me to brood unproductively on suffering, I see the artist's strength in the face of adversity, I see the triumph of Kahlo's spirit to walk through her personal tragedy and transform it into art.  I see her passion and her rage and her sense of beauty striving for the heights.  In her commitment to self-analysis and her willingness to dive deep into her own darkness and return to the world full of creative power, I see something worth living for beyond Olympic glory.  I decide to live for the sake of living life fully, and to never give up on myself.

I can't help feeling that those here who denigrate Kahlo's contribution to art and her insight into the human experience have lived very charmed lives indeed.  In Kahlo's contemplation of her broken back, I see a reflection of my own greatest struggles and losses.  The expression of her pain doesn't bring me down because I recognise it in myself.  When faced with such anguish in their lives, most people simply turn away and try to forget, but Kahlo finds beauty there, she finds a part of herself and she finds a purpose; in the face of the unbearable she finds her voice and those of us who find meaning in that voice will never forget her.

I can't help getting the impression that narrowly defining art as only that art which is romantic to me, or romantically realistic to me (or to me and Ayn Rand) is fundamentally subjective.  You mistake your context for objective reality.  If you lack the context that would make the art rationally explicable to you, the fault lies in your ignorance; for all you know, the art may in fact be irrational and malevolent, but you can't know it simply because it doesn't speak to you.  All art in which an individual finds rational value, is good.  Period. 

-Kevin

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Monday, December 5, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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'None so blind as those who would not see..'
who'd rather be in dark so comfort'bly,
Like lanterns hanging o'er the foggy lea -
Unlit, while rocks are grinding all to sea. 


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Post 17

Monday, December 5, 2005 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Frankly Kevin I find it impossible to actually read that much into Khalo's painting. She shows herself in some kind of strange state but what? Why? Who knows. I sincerely believe that the fact that her face seems somehow resolute and not particularly suffering is because the artist is not as good as they make her out to be. Her faces are always the same. She is a one-trick-pony. If I were in a disabling accident I wouldn't find anything of value in that painting. I would not find courage to live. How could I possibly? What is there to tell me this? That painting shows nothing more than a reflection of her current state. I feel sorry for her, nothing more. If a suffering person wants nothing more than to find a compatriot in feeling sorry for himself than he has found the right artist. If he would like to find the courage to live on and be happy, that is inside him and only art that reflects this, clearly, will inspire that.

Khalo is far from the worst of the artists of her type. Hell, there are a few of her works that I think are pretty ok. At least she shows some attention to technique and realism (surrealism of course) and ideas sometimes, even. But her subjects and compositions rarely if ever communicate clearly much of anything other than some semblance of her own mental & physical problems, which were many. Frighteningly many. She never really got passed them. Is it any wonder? Her work is a reflection of this, it is chacterized by this. It is a reflection of her choices (non-comittal as they often were) and her values, indeed. She was always "TORN" by something. Between two somethings. Never resolving much of anything. This is not the inspiration a disabled person might desire.

Marnee

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Post 18

Monday, December 5, 2005 - 4:52pmSanction this postReply
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Hey there Marnee,

Who's reading in?  Seriously, I'm not making anything up, except for my Olympic hopes.  Kahlo broke her back.  That's a fact.  It was a very debilitating experience for her.  Documented.  She painted a picture which eloquently evokes an experience of extreme pain arguably equivalent to the pain of her accident.  Observation.  (I don't believe as you say that "that painting shows nothing more than a reflection of her current state" because all art is, importantly, an act of reflection.)  It is psychologically difficult to examine one's own wounds with such painterly dispassion, complexity and rhetorical clarity.  Judgement, based upon experience.  Mine is merely an act of interpretation to see the painting as a validation of the artist overcoming great loss by the fact of her artistic choice to paint the picture in the first place. 

In order to heal a wounded self-image it can be very productive to make a painstaking examination of the wound and the image.  Many people never heal, because they are unwilling to take this crucial step.  Anyone who has recovered from a truly life threatening affliction might find meaning in Kahlo's painting.

You may not believe that pain or suffering are interesting or complex or even very important; or that they conceal important information that can only be reached if we are willing to face our pain and examine it.  You may not believe in the efficacy of that kind of psychological healing.  A lot of folks around here call it "navel gazing" and present "bootstrapping" as the only rational alternative.  But I have observed such healing in myself and others and Kahlo's work is consistent with what I perceive as a proper relation to one's own suffering at a critical phase of healing.  It is a powerful reminder of the mind's capacity to perceive itself unflinchingly. 

That said, I have to admit that my interest in Kahlo has diminished over the years.  My own sense of life has evolved to a point where Kahlo doesn't seem to be talking about who I am today, but she reminds me of where I've been and of the progress I've made.  I am not now critical of her art any more than I am critical of my younger more troubled self; I understand them both.

That she did not overcome her own wounded self-image in the process (at least not conclusively), does not invalidate the meaning of the art.  If the only artists in the world were those who personally benefitted from the truths expressed in their art even as they created them, there would be precious little art in the world.  Artists are driven to create out of great and chronic need and sometimes their personal need exceeds their ability to fulfill it.

-Kevin


Post 19

Monday, December 5, 2005 - 5:20pmSanction this postReply
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Dean - Nice provocative article.

I'm still thinking about this one - Diminishing Returns by Frank O'Connor.

Goth? Abstract? Pomo? Romantic Realism? Romantic Abstract? Romantic Pomo?

Hmmmmmmm...

Michael






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