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Post 60

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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Ed Thompson asks, "Can you formulate a syllogism (or sorites) which shows that Tsunami survivors "deserve" aid?"

Maybe I can, Ed. What would you trade for my work?

Ed continues:
If a billion unproductive folks had another 7 billion children, effectively doubling the Earth's population -- would these newborns "deserve" aid? What if these unproductive folks went "all-out" and had 14 billion kids, would this quadrupling of the population place an unchosen obligation on the "producers" living on this planet?
I don't accept your premises, Ed, as I understand them. The fantasy scenario is improbable, and has little value.

But -- let's say you are announcing a looming crisis: a sudden burst of fecundity among the unproductive of the world. The best marshalling of resources, should we wish to prevent such loading of parasites, seems to be contraception.

In the unlikely event of a threefold increase in the earth's population, of the fourteen billion newcomers, efforts to keep the newborn alive would fail, and most would starve along with their parents.

In any case, the natural rate of population increase has declined on earth. Why would it suddenly skyrocket among those you mark as 'unproductive'?

Consider the current famine in East Africa. Drought has overwhelmed the ability of millions to be productive. Do they react to the death of their crops, livestock, infants and elders by busily impregnating those of childbearing age? No.

Your dystopic fantasy seems designed to illustrate a hidden premise that newborns do not deserve food if their parents can't provide it. While this premise may be sound, it is mostly irrelevant in the real world we inhabit -- individuals and societies do not idly stand by debating Randian ethics when children starve.

This spectating may be entirely ethical within Randian orbits (though I do not believe this to be so), but reality impinges. As with Holcberg's initial rant against government-bestowed tsunami aid, such spectating unleashes revulsion, and contributes to the 'ick factor' of objectivism in action.


WSS

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Post 61

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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William Scherk,

You just wrote:
... hidden premise that newborns do not deserve food if their parents can't provide it. While this premise may be sound, it is mostly irrelevant in the real world we inhabit -- individuals and societies do not idly stand by debating Randian ethics when children starve.
I thought I was done, but I skimmed over this thread and caught your post. That was one hell of an inspiring thing to read in this kind of discussion. There is nothing in any sane philosophy anywhere, especially Objectivism, that should endorse a hidden premise like that.

(btw - There are Rand quotes on the responsibilities of adults toward children - and they resemble nothing like what people later derive, "logically" concoct and preach.)

(applause)

Thank you, sir.

Michael


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Post 62

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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Ed is simply pointing out that regardless of how many starving children there are he is under no obligation to any of them.   The idea that children "deserve food" can very quickly turn into the idea that children "have a right to food" and thus that you and I are obligated to provide it for them.    This is obviously not the case.  We are not obliged to assist starving children that aren't ours.

This may sound harsh and "icky" but it is a true reality based statement and a very important distinction that needs to be made.  If it is not made then all clear concepts of individual rights become null and void in favor of some murky notion of collective obligation.  

Stating that children do not have a right to food doesn't mean that I don't want to see them fed, or even that I don't want to feed them myself.   It means that neither you nor they nor anyone else has the right to make me feed them.   Period.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 2/11, 12:47pm)


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Post 63

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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William,

Just so you will not be confused, Jason's post is one of those all-or-nothing approaches that gives Objectivism the "ick" factor. In reality, Rand wrote quite sensible things about the ethics of emergencies, however the type of discussion you are witnessing is called "eliminate context."

A politician using starving children as an altruistic banner to augment government power is one context. A whole bunch of actual starving children is another. Decent people pitch in, help clean up the mess and move on. The all-or-nothing dudes prefer to split hairs on whether rights are inherent to man's nature and simply pretend that emergencies do not exist. They have any number of rationalizations to cover this up, too, like diverting the issue of emergencies to "rights" when the concept is not exactly appropriate to that context.

Michael


Post 64

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
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Good comeback, William. You wrote ...
But -- let's say you are announcing a looming crisis: a sudden burst of fecundity among the unproductive of the world. The best marshalling of resources, should we wish to prevent such loading of parasites, seems to be contraception.
Good point, that premise of mine does seem to hinge on some kind of "foolish" fecundity. As to your answer though, would we then -- like Hitler -- end up with at least some degree of state-enforced sterilization? I think we would. You went on ...
In the unlikely event of a threefold increase in the earth's population, of the fourteen billion newcomers, efforts to keep the newborn alive would fail, and most would starve along with their parents.

In any case, the natural rate of population increase has declined on earth. Why would it suddenly skyrocket among those you mark as 'unproductive'?

It would suddenly skyrocket if AIDS were cured, and that is very plausible. Also, when I had spoke of unproductive individuals -- there were 3 ways to take that statement to heart:

1. unproductive of their own will, where they COULD change but won't -- and are then deserving of their fate
2. inherently unproductive, where even if they willed to be productive -- they are too inferior to accomplish it

NOTE: Your response to me indicates that you hold one of those 2 views

3. unproductive because of failing to fight -- to the death, if necessary -- for 2 things needed by all humans: individual rights and a transparent rule of law

There are a few reasons to explain the plight of folks in view #3 (ie. my view of the matter). One is that their religion disallows implementation of the 2 universal human needs which I mentioned. Another is simply lack of education. You continue ...
Your dystopic fantasy seems designed to illustrate a hidden premise that newborns do not deserve food if their parents can't provide it.

No, that's a little juxtaposed. What I'm saying, is that parents don't "deserve" newborns -- if they can't PROVIDE FOR them.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 2/11, 1:39pm)


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Post 65

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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MSK did you read my post?  Does Rand ever provide an argument for a case in which I should be forced to feed starving children?  

It is very important that this principle be made clear.   Once you start making the argument that children deserve to be fed or that they have a right to be fed the ethical implication is that you and I are obligated to feed them.  

There are children starving all over the world right now.  Does this emergancy situation allow you to remove my rights because we live in a world where children are starving?  Give me a situation in which my property rights are nullified due to starving children.   I.e.  a situation in which you have the ethical imperative and right to steal from me (and not pay me back) to feed them.

And whatever you do, do not divert this into a discussion about whether helping a specific group of starving children is a decent thing to do.   No one disagrees with that.  This has never been the context of the discussion.  This has always been a discussion about altruism,  government action and coercion.  I am warning you in advance because I know you will employ this petty move if I don't. 

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 2/11, 2:07pm)


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Post 66

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Too late Jason, as Michael has already done what you are trying to prevent him from doing. He did this in post 63, where he alludes to what "Decent people" would do, and without specifying context (which is something he had just railed against). The kicker is that this evaluative language (who's decent, who's not) implies that if you disagree, then you're a heartless son-of-bitch.

Michael, I like you, you are a great ballast for certain Objectist-offshoot extremisms -- but I hate this particular argument of yours. I actually find it disgusting.

I am not an emotionless bastard,

Ed


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Post 67

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
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William makes a very good point about the ARI’s original Tsunami op/ed (the one that is gone now, they withdrew it.)

It’s a matter of taste and timing. I had been watching news coverage at the time of the Tsunami. Mass human death. Bodies everywhere. When I went to the computer and read the ARI piece I felt sick. I thought, “If this makes me want to hurl, even knowing that all of it is philosophically sound, then what would people unfamiliar with Objectivism think?” It was a stupid piece of outreach for its tone and timing. That’s why the ARI pulled it.

Look at it this way, Jason: I agree with what you have posted. But if you were to become disabled and your kids were starving, would that be a good time for us to email your posts to you?

William’s comparison of the ARI piece to Neil getting called a disgusting pitiful hypocrite for saying that the poor should be helped is spot-on. Both contribute to the revulsion and 'ick factor' that keeps many people from investigating Objectivism any further when this is their introduction. A guy who has been contributing meaningfully to the site for years is abused by Dean, (who understands neither the Objectivist Ethics nor concept of rights,) for using the wrong phrase. It’s not good.

Post 68

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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Jon -- I would say "Aflac!!"

I bring this up not only because I always sign up for long term disability insurance but because I just found this hilarious website.

http://www.upc-online.org/alerts/020304aflac_duck.html

(Sorry for posting off topic.  Such an email would of course be in bad taste but as you say it doesn't change the fact that you aren't obligated to help me or my kids.)

 - Jason


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Post 69

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jason and Ed,

Ayn Rand in "The Ethics of Emergencies":
"Other men are of value because they are of the same species as myself." [Rand quoting Nathaniel Branden from "Benevolence versus Altruism"]

(...)

It is on the ground of that generalized good will and respect for the value of human life that one helps strangers in emergencies - and only in an emergency.

It is important to differentiate between the rules of conduct in an emergency situation and the rules of conduct in the normal conditions of human existence.
What planet are you guys on? A bunch of starving children is a normal situation for you guys and not an emergency situation?

Creepy.

Ick.

Michael


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Post 70

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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It's pretty "normal" when half the planet is under dictatorship. 

But more specifically there are always going to be times where a child cannot be cared for.  This is tragic but I think another Rand quote is due.

The question is not whether or not you should give a dime to a beggar, but do you still have a right to live if you don't.
The question of whether or not it's a good thing to do is beside the point and has nothing to do with the moral principle.

If you're for forced theft at gunpoint that's on you. But don't think people aren't going to call a spade a spade.

---Landon


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Post 71

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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MSK,

Emergencies don't last for decades.

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Post 72

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ok MSK, I changed my mind.  Now I want you to get all of your stuff together and pack your bags.  You are going to Somalia tommorrow to feed children.   It doesn't matter that starvation has been taking place there for years and years.  It is an emergency situation!  You are to stay until the problem is solved.  When there are no more starving children I will allow you to come back home again.   I will be by your place with a few goons and some baseball bats in two days to make sure you've gone.

 - Jason

(BTW, you didn't respond at all to my post.  You essentially responded exactly how I said you would by using a sloppy diversion.   And then you called Ed's and my position "creepy".  Quite frankly I think that it is your position and your manner of argumentation that is "creepy".)

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 2/11, 5:19pm)


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Post 73

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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MSK, you still haven't bothered defining what a "branch" of philosophy means and requires.  The closest you've come to an intellectual argument is saying that politics is connected to epistemology.  I say "closest", because it's not even close.  Ethics has the same connection.  Those who believe in gods think that morality is doing what god wants them too.  So you've made no distinction between politics and ethics.  It's not even clear how you think showing a connection to epistemology would invalidate the politics-ethics connection.  For someone who disagrees with me so strongly, I would expect you to be able to give a single reason other than that Rand didn't say it.  That is not an argument.

Neither is suggesting there really is a tie in between esthetics and politics, but you just don't want to talk about it at this point.  It's bad enough that you're wrong so much of the time.  It's so much worse that you defend the most irrational of your ideas forever.  Well, defend the indefensible, as you accuse Jason of doing.  Keep trying to show how esthetics is derived from politics.  And keep wondering why I can't take you seriously.

Glenn, I understand about the car.  :)  And good points about empathy.

Jason, good posts.  Given your statements, I think you understand exactly what I'm saying.

Jon T., I'm looking forward to your answer to Jon L.


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Post 74

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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Jon L., your post 55 is excellent. It cuts to the heart of the issue.  I look forward to the answers because so far I've seen a lot of people insisting: 1.) Rand's categorizations must be right despite her not having given an explicit defense of them; 2.) Her breakup is incompatible with politics being a subset of ethics; 3.)  That this is of fundamental importance to the philosophy despite nobody being able to offer an explanation except by authority.

On the other hand, I'll give you a short description of why I think it's important.

First, politics can be thought of from the top-down, or the bottom-up.  The top-down approach, sometimes taken by Rand, is to describe the kind of social system we need to live.  We need an agency to protect our rights.  It must be limited to that purpose.  It is a night-watchman.  Etc.  There's nothing inherently wrong with that approach.  She was right.  We do need those conditions.  But it leaves a lot in the air.  While it says we need our rights protected, it discusses it in terms of some outside agency doing the protecting.  It disconnects that agency from individual choices and actions.  We need a government, and the rest is just details.

Approaching politics as an extension of ethics is a bottom-up approach.  It makes our own choices and actions primary.  If we want our rights protected, we have to actually protect them.  It emphasizes the use of retaliatory force and actions taken to protect our rights, instead of emphasizing a lack of violations.  It asks how our use of retaliatory force will be construed by others, and why we need a process in place to reduce confusion and make decisions among multiple individuals.  This approach requires all politics discussion to be tied to the choices and actions of individuals. 

There are plenty of implications.  Let me provide an example.  If a woman is getting raped in a street, do you stop to help?  In the "social system" approach, the locus of responsibility for rights-protection is on the government, instead of the individual.  I've seen Objectivists argue that it's not in their own rational self-interest to get involved, because they might get hurt.  Let the government handle it.  Don't risk it yourself.  The problem is that it only takes a few more steps along that path to argue that nobody should be a police officer, since it's not in your interest to risk your own life.  That's ultimately a major problem with the top-down approach.  It can propose social systems that don't work with real individuals.  If you need self-sacrificing people to protect your rights, isn't rational self-interest flawed?

In other words, the "social system" approach can be tied to ethics by understanding the social requirements (we need rights), but it can easily be divorced  from actual choices and actions.  It cuts off the means of protecting rights from the choices and actions of individuals.  It says they're actually two different fields of study.  And thus we have the disagreement here.

I'd be happy to go into more detail if you want.


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Post 75

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,
It's not even clear how you think showing a connection to epistemology would invalidate the politics-ethics connection. 
Just to start, I believe I mentioned faith and reason...

Maybe you missed that? Or just ignoring it? And who said invalidate a politics ethics connection? Politics is based on both epistemology and ethics. Once again, I stated that a social structure needs both knowledge and values.

I would appreciate it if you use the words I write, not your own words attributed to me to make arguments easier.

But I guess politics must be a branch (or subset to use another term of yours) of ethics because you own the site. I certainly can't find that in Rand's writings. (You don't like Rand's use of the word "branch" maybe? I learned that words have meanings and she was clear about hers. She was referring to a discipline of philosophy.)

Michael

Edit - Rick, finally somebody said something other than bicker. I agree that emergencies do not last for decades, but I don't think anybody was trying to talk about circumventing dictatorships to feed starving babies, either. People get turned off to Objectivism because of the hairsplitting you see going on here, where people try to justify starving babies as morally acceptable. No. Scratch that. Morally correct - meaning the good. Starving babies are a tragedy anywhere in the world, and to use them as an example of proper morality is a horrible waste of gray matter. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Effective activism it surely ain't. I believe I mentioned the term "context" above...

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 2/11, 5:58pm)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 2/11, 6:10pm)


Post 76

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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On the pyramid approach to philosophy.

I think it got covered that it was Peikoff's approach and for the most part it is sound.

The idea is metaphysics affects everything because the primary question in any inquiry is "what is the nature of the world in which I'm operating" (this is often implicit).  What is the status of the world I'm living in, and what is the nature of anything I encounter. Thus it is the base.

The second question (again usually implicit) is how do I gain understanding of the first.  How am I to judge any information I am presented with in reference to a problem.

Ethics deals with the question "How should I act based upon the first two ideas." What actions ensure survival based on the nature of your world and what you know about it.

I'm fairly certain there's no argument thus far... here's where it gets tricky.

Since the final two areas of philosophy (aesthetics and politics) are also usually relegated to the outer limits of philosophy (they are intellectual constructs). How they relate to the former branches is up for debate.

I see the two as parallel as opposed to aesthetics resting on politics.  It can have ties to politics but it is still primarily personal (related to individual thinkers).  It has some social aspects to it so I think some (wrongly) assume it is subordinate to politics.  If anything I think it would be the latter (though they don't necessarily have to have anything to do with each other).

Aesthetics rests on metaphysics, epistemology and ethics. Art is a selective recreation of reality, and thus an understanding of what reality is would be necessary. But how that information is interpreted and applied is the realm of ethics.  Aesthetics deals with how individuals understand and apply their sum philosophy to this point (since to some degree it covers the entirety of personal philosophy this is how it could seem dependent to some degree on politics.)  This is the first element of philosophy that has any social implications.  This is because the process of art involves turning abstractions into an effectively communicative concrete.  Taking an abstract principle and turning it into something which a person can view and gain instant understanding of with little abstraction. In many ways the ideas of aesthetics are a form of prototype for the ideas of ethics.

Politics is entirely social, like aesthetics it rests on metaphysics, epistemology and ethics.  Especially ethics. It is an application of how ethics should be instituted among large (or small) groups of men in order to allow for mutual flourishing and protection.

That's my interpretation of the pyramid view.

---Landon

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Post 77

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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This last offering by MSK is quite possibly the most dishonest, irrational, disgusting post I have ever seen on SOLOhq/ROR.  I dare you, you piece of shit to find any post in which anyone has tried to claim that baby starvation is "morally correct - meaning the good".

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 2/11, 7:46pm)


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Post 78

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The idea of dealing with any particular starving baby is a side issue. The moral premise is one of self reliance and non-allowance of forcing others to accept a responsibility that should be theirs.

It's like the principle of collateral damage.  It is a tragedy when any innocent person wrongly suffers, but the blame should be placed firmly on the person who caused the suffering.  In politics it's the dictator who uses human shields.  In personal ethics it is the person who created a human life without being able to take care of it. 

Again the question isn't should you or should you not help a starving baby.  The question is do you have any right to a second of life or happiness while there is a single starving baby in this world.  Again a Russian immigrant said it best

I say yes, altruism says no

Altruism is THE hardest battle Objectivism will ever have to fight. If there is anywhere in the philosophy you can afford to compromise in order to win more converts (though this in and of itself is suspect) altruism is not that area.

---Landon


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Post 79

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:29pmSanction this postReply
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MSK, I know I have to speak slowly so you can get things, but come on!  I referred to your "faith and reason" in my post in terms of a connection to epistemology.  I shouldn't be surprised you don't understand that those are the same thing.  So let me spell it out for you.  Faith and reason affects politics as you said.  Faith and reason also affects ethics.  You mentioned divine right of kings.  I mentioned doing god's will.  Read my post.

And nowhere have I said that this is my site and I make the rules.  You are dishonestly throwing that out to evade my arguments and try to make it seem like you're being bullied or censored.  The fact is, I've answered what you call "replies" to my position, and challenged you to make actual arguments.  You have yet to even make an outline of a case against my own position, except to repeat over and over like a good religious zealot "I certainly can't find that in Rand's writings."   I challenged you at the beginning to make an argument for your position that politics is distinct from ethics.  You haven't even come close to making it.  And as is always the case when you're shown to be wrong, you distract and evade.

And finally, you're use of the term "activism" is typical for you.  You suggest complete surrender to the altruists.  And instead of trying to trick the altruists into believing rational self-interest is compatible with their beliefs, you try to trick Objectivists into accepting altruism in the name of not being "icky".  As I said before, I don't consider surrender to be a valid form of activism, unless of course you want to admit that you're an activist for anti-Objectivism.

The interesting thing here is how you can follow Rand's words to blindly on one hand, and then preach the exact opposite of her philosophy on the other.  You get all riled up about whether politics is a subset of ethics, but you have no problem calling Objectivist baby killers and trying to rationalize altruism.  It's like someone who reads the bible and declares it is absolutely and literally true, and then goes on to use it to rationalize every one of their prejudices.

Of course, it's not that surprising.  Both approaches reject an integrated understanding of Objectivism.  They look for out of context quotes to argue from authority, and that can only exist with a lack of understanding.


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