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Post 40

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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"Edit - Jason, I already posted that quote on this very thread. Pay attention."

Then maybe you need to read it again and again and again until it sinks in that Rand DID say that politics is a branch of ethics and that they are indeed epistemologically grounded.   It is obvious that you missed it the first time.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 2/09, 7:20am)


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Post 41

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Why defend the indefensible? This semantics crap is boring me. You are wrong. Rand never stated that politics was a branch of ethics and that particular phrase is an extremely poor way to say it. If that way bothers me, who has read a great deal of Objectivism, then who in hell do you expect to convince with that twisted phrasing?

I'm done. Have a ball. Go seek some converts, if you can, with that kind of stuff. One thing is clear. You are not the least interested in the ideas or in understanding. Like I almost asked before (and forget about Perigo), where are you learning to teach the wrong as the correct? You like bickering all that much?

Nah... sorry. I really am done. I've got better stuff to do and this is going nowhere.

Michael


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Post 42

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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I never thought I'd say this, but MSK is essentially right.

Ayn Rand: "The answers given by ethics determine how man should treat other men, and this determines the fourth branch of philosophy: politics, which defines the principles of a proper social system."

That quotation clearly states that politics is based on ethics, which MSK readily admits. But it doesn't state that politics is a "subset" of ethics. It's a separate branch entirely that deals with various *socioeconomic systems*.

I'm surprised that this view is at all controversial on this website. It's a standard model that's repeated throughout Ayn Rand's writings.

Moreover, in his lecture "Introduction to Objectivism" on the ARI website, Leonard Peikoff diagrams Objectivism. Metaphysics and epistemology at the base, ethics at the center, politics and esthetics at the top (but each deriving from ethics separately). And whatever you think about LP, I don't think he could be so flat-out wrong about the basic structure of Objectivism while earning AR's endorsement for his 1976 lecture course on her overall philosophy.

Post 43

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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"Why defend the indefensible? This semantics crap is boring me. You are wrong. Rand never stated that politics was a branch of ethics and that particular phrase is an extremely poor way to say it. If that way bothers me, who has read a great deal of Objectivism, then who in hell do you expect to convince with that twisted phrasing?"

There is nothing twisted about the phrasing at all.  Ethics determines politics, i.e. politics is derived from ethics, i.e. it is a subset of ethics, i.e. it is a branch of ethics.  Why is this all so bothersome to you?   Is the word "branch" offensive to you?   If you'd like I can use a different word to explain the exact same concept.

"One thing is clear. You are not the least interested in the ideas or in understanding. Like I almost asked before (and forget about Perigo), where are you learning to teach the wrong as the correct?"

This is nonsense and you know it.  The last question is one you ought to be asking yourself.    You've gone and made a horrible mash mash of everything you've said in this whole thread -- and in virtually every other recent thread I've seen you in. 

 - Jason

 


Post 44

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

I tried to find the diagram you mentioned (in the Intro section at ARI). i couldn't find it. Am I doing something wrong. The page I get (which has only 2 links, both without diagrams) is ...

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_intro

Is that where you had found the diagram?

Ed


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Post 45

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I should have been clearer. On the ARI website under the "Intro to Objectivism" tab, go to the "Audio/Video" tab. There you'll see a Peikoff lecture titled "Introduction to Objectivism." It's free to watch, but you need to register on the site and have Real Player (which is also free). The total lecture is 75 minutes long, but part of that is just an introduction and part is a Q&A session. Incidentally, it looks like it was recorded in the 1980s based on LP's appearance.

Post 46

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Jon!

Ed


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Post 47

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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Michael K,
==================
Ed,

If you read what I wrote, I said that philosophy can discipline some of the emotions, but not all of them. Basic fight/flight response comes to mind. There are others. I am getting the feeling that what people call emotions around here has very little to do with the amygdala and more to do with some kind of rational construct.
==================

Okay. I have a little problem with the "disciplining" of emotion, though. Strictly speaking, wouldn't you say that we use our will to "decide" about emotions. If I'm watching my weight, for instance, I will have great desire for junk food -- but "decide" not to act on that desire. My will "chooses" whether to follow my passions -- or whether to follow some more than others (pretty much regardless of their relative intensities -- though I understand that there may be life or death times where I act in a manner not "chosen" by my will).

As far as the amygdala (the "seat" of basic fear in animate animals) and rational constructs then, I think that both play roles in life; but that the will, while captaining a vessel in a sometimes stormy see of emotion -- is still the one in charge.

Ed


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Post 48

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jon Trager,

You wrote that LP earned “AR's endorsement for his 1976 lecture course on her overall philosophy.”

Is this her quote you mean to refer to?
"Until or unless I write a comprehensive treatise on my philosophy, Dr. Peikoff's course is the only authorized presentation of the entire theoretical structure of Objectivism, i.e., the only one that I know of my own knowledge to be fully accurate."

If so, she endorsed the course, not LP.

Are there other quotes I am not aware of that come closer to endorsing him as opposed to specific works of his?

Thanks,

Jon


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Post 49

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, I phrased that sentence sloppily. I meant that I don't think AR would have endorsed LP's course on Objectivism if he didn't understand the basic structure of the philosophy.

Post 50

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 6:27pmSanction this postReply
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She makes a very careful and exact statement. I would disagree with you and say that AR would not have endorsed LP's course on Objectivism if it didn't present accurately the basic structure of the philosophy.

She carefully avoided comment as to what he understood.

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Post 51

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, can we get back to the point now? The point is that LP presents the basic structure of Objectivism in his lecture the way I described above. That's the same way he laid out Objectivism in his 1976 lecture course, which AR approved. Metaphysics and epistemology, then ethics, then politics and esthetics (again, politics and esthetics each based on, but not a subset within, ethics).

Post 52

Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 7:50pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, right. Sorry for the hijack. I am not interested in the debate that is going on. I don’t even see of what import this “branch” debate has, how it matters to anything.

Maybe I could get interested.

Could someone from each side explain what consequences that matter would result from getting it wrong?


Post 53

Friday, February 10, 2006 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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It's just playing with hairs, Jon.......[I'll give you two blondes for that red....]


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Post 54

Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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Jon, you don't understand why grasping the fundamental structure of Objectivism correctly should matter to people who want to practice and communicate the philosophy?

If you're being honest about that, then I don't think you're capable of being convinced. Suffice it to say that it makes a big difference in one's ability to discuss the philosophy intelligently and be consistent in one's positions depending on whether one thinks, for example, that politics is 1) a separate branch based on ethics that's primariy focused on the propriety of various social systems or 2) a subset of ethics that's primarily focused on the use of force.

As for not caring about a thread (whether it's about the structure of Objectivism, the Rand/Branden issue, or anything else) the solution is simple: don't participate.

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Post 55

Friday, February 10, 2006 - 9:05amSanction this postReply
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Jon,

You don’t have to explain to me the solution to my disinterest in a thread. I explained the specific purpose I had for jumping in, and I explained the condition that would get me interested in participating in the (current) topic of this thread.

And yes, I am being honest and yes, I think I will be capable of understanding a good argument as to why the branch issue matters. Thank you for your concern about that.

Suffice it to say that, “Suffice it to say that it makes a big difference...” won’t suffice.

Show me how Joe’s idea that politics can be viewed as a branch of ethics will lead to him getting the Objectivist politics wrong.

Jon


Post 56

Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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[emulating Malcom now]

To "branch off" is to go beyond -- but being a "subset within," is a whole different ball of tree wax.


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Post 57

Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Neil Parille writes, in post 8, "I think the poor should be helped and if people don't help them voluntarily, the government inevitably will."

Dean Michael Gores replies, in post 11, "You disgusting pitiful hypocrite," presumably because he believes Neil will cut out Michael's tongue and give it to a rapist.

Later, in post 25, Dean Michael Gores writes of "people in the street . . . destroying things"; he then sketches out a scenario in which the jailed die of starvation . . . unless of course, Neil or some other evil, degraded being helps them out with a Happy Meal. Why waste the time/money incarcerating them for the 40 days required for death, why not shoot them in the street?

This brings to mind the flap over the ARI editorial, the one that seemed to say that Boxing Day Tsunami survivors deserve no aid in their emergency, that unaffected nations' governments should sit their asses on our coffers until all the survivors die of exposure, disease or starvation.

Sometimes it appears that objectivist leaders exist in a bubble, unaffected by advances in knowledge and understanding that do not emerge from the Randian canon. With regard to empathy, posters in this thread have recourse to cognitive science and findings in related fields.

I do agree with Dean Michael Gores' speculation that advances in neuroscience might one day allow us to delete/insert/amplify or otherwise alter an individual's emotional toolkit. It could very well be that future sociopaths might have empathy seeded and regrown into their frontal lobes. I for one, would glady join a cooperative fund to provide the dollars needed -- it would be in my own self-interest to have fewer sociopathic folk about.

In the same way, I selfishly give money to get people 'off the street' and support charitable efforts to help fellow humans with my own cash -- and I agree with Neil that if I don't, the government will inevitably reach into my wallet to do it (I am Canadian, so this is reality!).


WSS
(Edited by William Scott Scherk
on 2/10, 10:29pm)


Post 58

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:39amSanction this postReply
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William,

===================
This brings to mind the flap over the ARI editorial, the one that seemed to say that Boxing Day Tsunami survivors deserve no aid in their emergency ...
===================

Can you formulate a syllogism (or sorites) which shows that Tsunami survivors "deserve" aid?

If a billion unproductive folks had another 7 billion children, effectively doubling the Earth's population -- would these newborns "deserve" aid? What if these unproductive folks went "all-out" and had 14 billion kids, would this quadrupling of the population place an unchosen obligation on the "producers" living on this planet?

Ed


Post 59

Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 7:04amSanction this postReply
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Correction:
Adding 14 billion to the planet would triple, not quadruple, the populace. But the point's still valid.

Ed


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