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Post 140

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Oddly enough, what MSK is proposing was explored on the last episodes of SEINFELD. The four are stuck in a small town, and witness a mugging. Instead of helping, or even calling the police, they videotape it and make jokes typical of a big city ennui. Turns out the town had recently passed a Good Samaritan law. They stand trial for their inaction and all the characters come to testify against the big Four's perpetual callousness, and they are found guilty.

This makes me think of another example, where a person is having some kind of attack with the antidote just out of reach. A person a few feet away need only push a bottle of medicine into the person's hand. But instead of doing so, the person watches the other person twitch and struggle, with a mixture of curiousness and sadism, allowing the person to die. This example usually comes up in discusssions of what constitutes murder, and often in discussions of pscyopaths (I think I heard this example in regards to the movie THE BAD SEED).

I really don't want to touch this discussion with a 20 foot pole, because it does make me uneasy. It seems such a slippery slope to suggest legislation, and I personally side with Luke that the state has no right to legislage morality. Yet I would want to help a person in need and do what I can for them in an emergency situation. But to legislate emergency assistance would seem to be too subjective a call, and if the government is limited to preventing the non-initiation of force, it would be incompatible with Objectivism. Maybe the closest way to reconcile it would be Rand's example of boycotts as an appropriate way to deal with discrimination; ostracism by the community would be a more effective way of dealing with someone who does not hold the mutual well-being of the community as a value. But the slippery slope of "Good Samaritan laws" can only lead to more of what got us to our current situation.

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Post 141

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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MSK's example is an extreme leaky lifeboat test, one of those examples that are purposely exaggerated to get support for more realistic issues. Usually this kind of argument from intimidation is used by the left..."but if you love children, you HAVE to support this legislation! You love children, don't you?"
Basically, it sounds like what he is saying is that the individual is inherently capricious, and it is up to the state to make sure everyone does their civic duty.
YOU can't be trusted to help someone in need...god, he's arguing communism.

Post 142

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
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On the contrary, Jason. That is exactly the argument you are making. That is why you are throwing such a temper tantrum about evading it.

Looking in the mirror hurts, doesn't it dude?

Michael


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Post 143

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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I haven't been following the thread recently, but had time, energy, and inclination to do so now (it's a holiday!). Please forgive me if what I'm about to say has already been well covered in later posts, but back in post 99, MSK wrote this abomination:

=====================
In our society, if the right to life is to mean anything at all, starving another person to death is a crime.
=====================

What's wrong with this reasoning is that it implies the following generalization about mankind: "If ANYONE is starving to death on Earth, then EVERYONE else is a criminal (except he who starved)." We are our brother's keepers. Anyone who has produced anything of value, is potentially culpable for the deficiencies in another's life.

After reading that, I might have to take another break from this thread again -- as my presently-desired words to Michael aren't conducive to an ongoing relationship with him.

Ed
[I stop here in the hope to maintain some sort of ongoing relationship]


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Post 144

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I just went back and scanned through this thread to see how we arrived here from estetics and politics to tsunamis to lone babes in the woods. You're a naughty boy. You started this argument whipping up the hysteria and calling various posters not nice things. One hundred odd posts later, you start to try and insert some context to make all of these people arguments seem stupid. You've done the "Engle" thing as Jason notes by constantly using vaguness and changing context and hypotheticals to argue essentially nothing. Amazing.

Folks, go back and read it through. Wow.

You should run for public office Michael.

Ethan


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Post 145

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Ethan, at least the title is appropriate. He is arguing altruism against Freedom...

Post 146

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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I stated that earlier - it goes as far as the example under discussion - a child discovered in the wilderness (but implicitly within the confines of our society).
But this makes no sense at all. For a principle to be of any real use, it has to apply to all circumstances involving any and all foundlings.

 Just as our capacity to use force is delegated to the government, thus granting it a right (and this is Objectivism 101 - see AR's essays on rights and government), so the responsibility of a parent to preserve a child's life in an emergency becomes delegated to another adult if (a) he is the only one available, and (b) he does not have to sacrifice (or endanger) his own life.
Who gets to decide what a "sacrifice" is?  If one doesn't have the right to say "no" in an emergency, then no one ever has the right to say it.





 


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Post 147

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

It's a lot simpler than a conspiracy theory.

I don't like people saying in public that it's OK (not pertinent to rights or whatever) to starve a baby in the wilderness. It isn't OK. Simple.

Also, I REALLY don't like people saying something despicable like that in the name of Objectivism. Somebody has to speak up against this insanity once in a while. It really gives Objectivism a black eye.

(My disagreements with Joe's phrasing of philosophical categories is an unrelated issue.)

Michael

Post 148

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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Yes, please those of you who are new to this discussion --

Don't try to argue against Michael's current diversion. Go back and read the thread so that you understand all of the dishonest tactics MSK has used to bring it to this point.

- Jason


Post 149

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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It's all subjective, Terasa...it would be the 20th Century Motor Factory brought to life. It's already started.

"I stated that earlier - it goes as far as the example under discussion - a child discovered in the wilderness (but implicitly within the confines of our society)."

We've gone from the starving child in the wilderness to the intellectually starving child in the cities ("No child left behind!). We already have this with compulsory education. Childless taxpayers are already forced to pay for the schooling of other's children. And we have zoning districts to define the "confines" of our society, which determines who pays what...we have arguments regarding those zonings, with parents trying to get their kids into the best schools at the cost of those in that zone...

Who will define the confines of society? If I live on the border, inches away, and I were a millionaire, would those borders be redrawn? Would I be protected by my side of the border? Do I appeal to the would be mafia of city council to protect my interests, my tax money as "protection"? All under the guise of caring for the children? What about WIC programs for welfare mothers? Are we not already forced to contribute to food to starving children through compulsory taxation?









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Post 150

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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I'm starting to have fun with this. (Dayaamm you can waste a lot of time with the useless...)

Jason,

Stop squirming. Please answer the two following questions:

1. Do you judge it to be evil to starve a kid to death in the wilderness if you are the only adult available and you have enough to eat for both until help arrived or was found?

2. Is starving a child to death like that murder?

Let's see your morality balls.

Michael


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Post 151

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Michael, stop calling yourself an Objectivist. You've already violated a basic principle, the non-initiation of force, when you said that :

"If some evil son-of-a-bitch wants to starve a child to ill health or death on purpose, irrespective of the reason, he better not do it in front of me or near me, because no principle or right on earth is going to keep me off him."

So if a stranger walks by and sees you beating the shit out of another in your example, should he keep going, or should he be compelled to act on behalf of the one you're beating, irrespective of the reason? You're the one who has admitted in that sentence that you will not hesitate to violate another's right.



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Post 152

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I will not stop calling myself an Objectivist.

Look at you. The kid's right to life is blatantly violated in my example and you blank it out. I don't.

I don't use the convoluted reasoning of calling the willful starvation of a kid in the wilderness initiation of force. I'll just do what has to be done to (1) save the kid's life if at all possible, and (2) punish the purposely negligent adult.

Michael


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Post 153

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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God, I hate jumping into this pathetic discussion, but Michael, there are untold numbers of children "starving in the wilderness" of Africa as we have this discussion. Like all of us, you are confronted by and aware of this because the facts are constantly reported on the news. Based upon your own statements, if you are not working hard to earn as much as possible and then giving everything beyond what it takes to minimally keep yourself healthy, to starvation relief efforts, then, by your own criteria, are you yourself not "blanking out on the right-to-life of babies"? If you are not doing everything within your power to alleviate the suffering and provide for the survival of all babies in the world, how can you then proscribe some action be imposed upon others?

As others have said, I do not believe you have a grasp of basic Objectivist principles.
--
Jeff

Post 154

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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More fun.

Hi Jeff.

If you read the thread until now, you will see that my discussion is limited strictly to the example of one adult and one child in an emergency situation. What you brought up is another discussion.

Michael


Post 155

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

You say my example is a different situation. I think you need to explain why, in principal, it is different.
--
Jeff

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Post 156

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Look at me nothing, Michael. I already stated that I would NOT allow a child to die in an emergency situation, and advocate alternative forms of punishment, such as ostracism, that do not initiate force. OBVIOUSLY BLANKED OUT BY YOU.

But go ahead, call yourself an Objectivist. You've already been exposed. The gig is up.

Jason, you are right. It is pointless to argue. If he had taken this to the dissent form, he'd have been a lot more honest.
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 2/20, 10:39am)


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Post 157

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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My recommendation is that no one bother to reply to Michael's questions without first going back and reading this entire thread. Pay careful attention to the shifting or missing context that has characterized his arguments. Then you can reply if it suits you.

This debate is akin to Michael hiding an innocent person behind an archery target and inviting you to a target practice. Once you hit the bullseye, you think you've won. Then he'll bring out the body and call you a murderer.

But don't take my word for it. Go back and see how the target was set up and the body smuggled in. It's all there for anyone to read. You've been warned.

[Bond and Drax are shooting pheasants]
Hugo Drax: You missed, Mr. Bond.
[a sniper falls from a tree]
James Bond: Did I?

-Moonraker

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 2/20, 10:30am)


Post 158

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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Ethan, mah deah.

Ahre yew e... e... e... evading a cleah moral issue?

Edit - Do have fun gentlemen (and lady). I've got to stop now. The issues are clear enough. (And I HIGHLY recommend that nobody try starving a kid to death around me.)

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 2/20, 10:35am)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 2/20, 10:37am)


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Post 159

Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:34amSanction this postReply
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No, not The Colonel. Give us a page of LOLs!

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