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Post 200

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn wrote:

"What bothers me is the importance that is being attached to these two observations about Rand. Why not go to the source itself?"


Again, here is Ayn Rand in her own words...

"As to Nathan, I thought he was a genius from the first evening. And I really mean genius. In that sense, I have never pronounced that judgment on someone I know, not that immediately, not that objectively...From intelligence alone, it's not yet enough for the title genius. You know what's necessary there? It's a creative intelligence, it has to be an initiating intelligence, not merely philosophical or abstract or quick to understand or being able to deal with abstractions...When you conclude that someone is really a genius, it's total independence, the first hand look of a creative mind, a mind that is constantly active on its own power." (Excerpt taken from Barbara Branden's taped interview of Ayn Rand for *Who is Ayn Rand?*)"



RCR

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Post 201

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, the fact Rand had too humble a view of her own natural endowments does not mean that she believed that natural endowments do not differ among human beings or that the only difference between people in regard to their accomplishments is virtuous activity (e.g., honesty, effort, hard work). On the contrary, her writings indicate quite clearly that she did not believe anything of the sort.

You ask,
Why are you unwilling to engage the fact that she held peculiar views about herself and Mozart? Why do you keep pretending that she didn’t hold them, that she meant simply and only to say that newborns can’t write novels yet? Do you really think that’s all she meant to say? Should we repost the stuff?
I have no problem accepting Rand's unwillingness to acknowledge that she was an especially gifted writer and philosopher; I haven't "engaged" it, because I didn't think it was relevant. As for her views on Mozart, the only one I'm familiar with is her alleged claim that Mozart was "pre-music." Apparently, she didn't care for his musical compositions, but what does that have to do with the point about her supposed repudiation of natural endowments? Nothing, as far as I can see. Besides, as Glenn pointed out, if you do a search of the research CD for "Mozart" you find only one hit, and that has nothing to do with talent, innate ideas or tabula rasa.

- Bill

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Post 202

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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BillD:

"Jon, the fact Rand had too humble a view of her own natural endowments does not mean that she believed that natural endowments do not differ among human beings or that the only difference between people in regard to their accomplishments is virtuous activity (e.g., honesty, effort, hard work). On the contrary, her writings indicate quite clearly that she did not believe anything of the sort. "

I think, perhaps, the key here is that Rand likely believed "total independence, [...] a creative mind, a mind that is constantly active on its own power" (i.e. types of virtuous activity) to be the defining characteristics (distinction) of her concept of *genius*; she believed that the true *height* of man's achievements were volitionally based (including intellectual honesty), and not products of innate biology or environmental circumstances.

That being said, I do, however, agree with Ellen, and I'm not personally satisfied with Bill's explanation of Rand saying:

"No one is born with any kind of 'talent' and, therefore, every skill has to be acquired."




RCR

Post 203

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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Reading Rand, it is clear that she wasn't (clearly) an 'extremist' on this matter (ie. promoting 99-100% nature; or 99-100% nurture).

But what gets my goat is that some folks here (whose names will be withheld, for confidentiality purposes) have appeared to have 'wanted' her to sound 'extremist' (by ignoring contradictory evidence; or by practicing selective omission).

The reason that I psychologize, and say that these folks 'want' Rand to be heard a 'certain' way -- is that I have respect for their intellects (ignoring a 'big picture' -- is 'out of character' for them). The default explanation for someone who acts out of character -- is because they 'wanted' to (or were coerced to).

In my opinion, Bill and Glenn (and let's not forget, me) have adequately met marshalled criticisms effectively (ie. defused them, so to speak). It is said that we can't account for a particular interpretation of a particular proposition Rand made -- and that our logical appeal to integrate a given proposition with the other works by Rand -- is too 'generous'.

Bullpucky.

It's that kind of short-sighted, narrow-minded thinking that Rand took pains to obliterate; deliberately shocking the shallower thinkers with phrases like: the Virtue of Selfishness.

Ed
[In order to understand Rand, you HAVE TO integrate -- and integrate without contradiction]

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Post 204

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

You have engaged! You have given your explanation (my third and last requirement for “engagement”) of *why* she would say what she said to them (Peikoff and N. Branden.)

You say she said she could discover Objectivism while no one else did because she was more honest than everyone else…because she was too modest!

I’d like to wait for other’s explanations before I comment.


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Post 205

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ed however, is stuck at requirement number two.

He writes, “a particular interpretation of a particular proposition Rand made.”

Let’s do it this way. What is *your* interpretation of Peikoff? You will find his statements in post 111.


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Post 206

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 9:39pmSanction this postReply
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I really think Rand tried her best to not make Objectivism an elitist philosophy, that philosophy need not be this rationalist approach that only a few that spend a lifetime trying understand Kant, Hume, etc can understand, and still may not understand what these blokes were talking about. I don't think philosophy should work that way, it shouldn't just be fanciful musings that a few aging hippies in a philosophy department at college only understand and is only relevant to their lives, but something that works for all of us humans, that we can use and integrate into our lives and see tangible positive results of this philsophy.

What good is a philosophy unless the darn thing works in reality!

To that end, I think that's why she wanted it to seem like her philosophy can be arrived at from anyone that is being intellectually honest with reality. That is, giving it a scientific, and logical approach, anyone can come to the same conclusions she did. That is, her philosophy is really objective, and not just hers.

Just my two cents.

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Post 207

Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:38pmSanction this postReply
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“I think that's why she wanted it to seem like her philosophy can be arrived at from anyone that is being intellectually honest with reality.”

Very good. John has engaged.

There is a big difference between recognizing her formulations as correct and formulating them from scratch, however. I trust you will accept this is proved by the fact that millions recognize the value/correctness of her formulations while she and only she (after thousands of years of philosophy) actually formulated them. You and I can easily arrive at “Objectivism is true,” by being really, really honest while we read her—but her task was an original one.

I’m reminded of a comment Ed made in post 172:
“Rand didn't have to be 'smarter' than other folks to do what she did, because what she did only involved extensive integration -- and an excommunication of all thought that led to a contradiction.”

He says this as though the process of her philosophical discovery consisted of being hit with lots of data and all she had to do was drop the correct ideas into this basket and the ones that lead to a contradiction in that one. That may describe the way *I* *validate* a philosophy, but it does not address how one gets originated. Some very honest people have spent lifetimes dropping their thoughts into the right baskets and yet come up with very light “truth baskets.”

Finally, I want to say I accept your engagement and think it good: “I think that's why she wanted it to seem like her philosophy can be arrived at from anyone that is being intellectually honest with reality.” She certainly thought it should be recognized as correct, *now that it is out there, * by any honest person. I would just remind you that “honesty as the only difference” with regard to original discovery was not part of her public presentation. She only expressed the honesty-explains-discovery idea to her confidants. Numerous posters have pointed out that this stuff didn’t make it into print. So you can’t quite say that she said these things only to N. Branden and Peikoff because she wanted everyone to know something.


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Post 208

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:01amSanction this postReply
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Jon,
The main reason that I didn't satisfy your "rules of engagement" is that I don't care what someone said that Rand said, even if it was Peikoff and Branden.  There's a reason that hearsay evidence is not admissible in court (or, I think it isn't, based on my having watched Perry Mason years ago!).  It's unreliable.  Did they remember correctly what she actually said?  I don't know; I wasn't there.  Did she say it without giving it much thought, in a very informal, casual way (unlike the way she wrote)?  I don't know; I wasn't privy to the conversation.

Bottom line: it doesn't matter what they said she said.  We know what she said in print.

RCR,
You quoted Rand as saying:
From intelligence alone, it's not yet enough for the title genius.
This was followed by:
When you conclude that someone is really a genius, it's total independence, the first hand look of a creative mind, a mind that is constantly active on its own power.
From this you concluded that:
she believed that the true *height* of man's achievements were volitionally based (including intellectual honesty), and not products of innate biology or environmental circumstances.
I don't follow this argument.  The first quote says that intelligence is necessary, but not sufficient, for genius.  So, how do you conclude that "the true *height* of man's achievements [are] not products of innate biology"?  The way I read the paragraph you quoted is that it's intelligence plus volition that make a genius.  But, Rand has written that innate abilities vary.
Thanks,
Glenn


Post 209

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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Glenn:

"I don't follow this argument."

I'm simply suggesting that for Rand, you'll never get "genius" from innate abilities alone--therefore "genius" is not strictly a product of biology, or environment for that matter. I think "genius" was a special category for Rand, something for which no amount of environmental prodding, nor biological biases could account for.

I don't think, for example, that Rand would consider Kim Peek to be a genius, despite his amazing, seemingly innate skills and abilities.

Clearly, we cannot separate biology or circumstances from the life of the human being; anything we do carries with it these components to some degree.

But, as I said, I think Rand considered choice, "virtuous activity", volition, or "a mind that is constantly active on its own power" to be the *defining characteristics (distinction)* of her concept of genius. These qualities are what *separates* "genius" from ordinary and even high intelligence.

In other words, I think for Rand, neither nature nor nurture is going to get you to the top of the mountain, only the on- going choice to think well will get one to the *summit* of ability.

Now, even having said this, the question remains, did Rand think that *anyone* could become or achieve "genius"? Personally, I think Rand *wanted* very much to believe this, as it is somewhat key to her optimistic view of humanity, but as Ellen has hinted, she may have been swayed later in life, at least on a semi-unconscious level, as the quality of her company waned...





RCR
(Edited by R. Christian Ross
on 7/12, 9:14am)


Post 210

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
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Nay-sayers (you know who you are), integrate THIS ...

==========================
[Ford Hall Forum, 1973]

Question to Rand:
"Do severely retarded individuals have rights?"

Rand's Answer:
"... In effect, the have the right to be protected as perennial children. Like children, retarded people are entitled to protection because, as humans, they may improve and become partly able to stand on their own."
==========================

Recap:
Rand acknowledged tremendous differences in capability, within the human race. She also acknowledged that, while we each are born with unique and unequal potentiality -- we can all improve on ourselves (because of the fact that we're human).

Ed
[and I agree with both Glenn's and Bill's answers to the Peikoff interview -- for those still stuck, even after all this work to unstick them]

Post 211

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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RCR,
Thanks for the clarification.
Glenn


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Post 212

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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RCR wrote (post 209):

-- "In other words, I think for Rand, neither nature nor nurture is going to get you to the top of the mountain, only the on- going choice to think well will get one to the *summit* of ability.

-- "Now, even having said this, the question remains, did Rand think that *anyone* could become or achieve 'genius'? Personally, I think Rand *wanted* very much to believe this, as it is somewhat key to her optimistic view of humanity, but as Ellen has hinted, she may have been swayed later in life, at least on a semi-unconscious level, as the quality of her company waned..."


I can't say I sign on to describing Rand's view of humanity as "optimistic." Instead, I think she always had a strong streak of pessimism as regards humanity at large. ("Do they ever think?" - Dagny to the cigarette vendor, etc., etc., etc. I suppose this opens another can of worms.) But I would say that it's intimately connected to her views about volition and the self-madeness of people's "souls" (not using that in a religious sense but in the sense in which Rand used it).

However Christian is correct in indicating that my belief is that her views as to her achievements coming from "honesty" hardened as she aged and came to feel increasingly bitter and estranged from the culture. Leonard Peikoff directly refers to the cultural context (her being "a genius trapped in a rotten culture") in his "My Thirty Years with Ayn Rand," the relevant section of which I quoted in post 109.

As to the Mozart issue, Bill, the source of her views there is me recalling things Allan Blumenthal said -- see my posts 86 and 88. In psychology courses I took with Allan during the first half of the '70s, he talked about that, and I probed him for details in private questionings. (I did a lot of probing of Allan on issues pertaining to music and Rand's views of various musicians, as well as on issues of the Objectivist theory of volition, with which I never felt satisfied.) Her opinions re specifically Mozart are complexified by her not having understood anyway what the fuss is about Mozart. She was not musically inclined herself and she didn't hear what it is that arouses awe at Mozart's gift.

But even in regard to composers whom she did consider to be musical geniuses (e.g., Rachmaninoff, Tschaikovsky, Chopin), her view was that the musical ability came from an interest chosen as a child and then pursued, analogous to her having chosen at an early age to become a writer and then worked at the craft. She didn't seem to credit the idea of there being a "musical mind" sort of like a mania seizing its possessor, turning its possessor into a servant of the muse. (I'm exaggerating there for effect, but there are cases where it does seem rather like a person "possessed." Consider for instance Schubert, a striking example, and his feeling of being driven, of having to compose, as if he was almost a transcribing machine. He'd even wake in the middle of the night feeling impelled to write down music. Or Schumann is another who felt driven to compose. And Mozart himself described the music as coming to him, as if it was there and he heard it rather than "making" it.)

A relevant story is the one told of Frank O'Connor and how he started painting. On one of the occasions when the Collective was gathered (this was prior to the publication of Atlas), Joan Blumenthal claimed that anyone could be taught to draw competently and offered to support the claim by giving drawing lessons. Frank became enthused and pursued the interest. Similarly, Rand thought that anyone (within limits: barring mental retardation or other disability -- anyone "normal") could become competent at music and that some became especially interested early, that there wasn't need of a further factor of a particular type of mind. I think she was wrong about this.

Ellen


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