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Post 60

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 2:47pmSanction this postReply
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robert wrote:

 Bullshit. Prove it - name your sources....
Gladly, but first let's agree on what it is we're disagreeing on.  OK?

Define your take of what "Cognitive Mechanism" is, and I'll take it from there.

Bob


Post 61

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, are you saying that when Rand rejects "the notion that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry," what she means by "intellectual traits" is the man's IQ?? Seriously?! If that's your interpretation, then I don't know anyone well acquainted with Rand and her philosophy, either at the Ayn Rand Institute or The Objectivist Center who would agree with you.

As for the idea that heredity plays a more dominant role than environment in a person's IQ, I'm willing to accept what you say, although I'm also aware that there is considerable controversy over this. But if you want, I'll grant the 70/30 ratio over the 50/50. Nothing much hangs on this distinction. I also have no strong objection to certain personality dispositions being inherited. But by "character," Rand does not simply mean "personality." The term "character" refers to those elements, particularly those involving ethics and morality, that are open to a person's choice, and what is open to a person's choice is not inherited.

I wrote, "What Rand means by "blank" in this context is the absence of ideas, or of any awareness of, reality; she doesn't mean the absence of any capacity for processing this information once it is received. Obviously, that capacity exists before one is born or becomes aware of reality. The concept of "tabula rasa" is intended to be distinguished from the doctrine of innate ideas, not from an inherited potential for cognitive functioning." Bob replied,
But she wrote "COGNITIVE MECHANISM"!! There's a big friggin' difference!
Bob, by "cognitive mechanism" she means the anatomical mechanism that has the potential for cognition (namely, the brain, sense organs and CNS) but has yet to be actualized. There is absolutely no question that that's what she means. Why do you want to attribute a meaning to her words that is not what she intended? I'm baffled by this line of criticism. It's the same approach that Bob Catala is using. And it serves no rational purpose.

- Bill

Post 62

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 4:52amSanction this postReply
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Bob, I have to question the validity of the twins study you cite. I mean, how many twins can be found that were reared seperately? I'm just wondering how many subjects these researchers looked at before they reached their conclusion. Did they look at one set reared together and one set seperately? Also, how exactly was their "similarity" meaasured? I'm not calling you a liar, I'd just be interested to know alittle bit more about the study. At any rate, I think Bill made a great point about "character" referring to the things that are open to choice, like ethics and values etc. Surely you don't contend that man has no volition and is not capable of making any choices?

Post 63

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
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Well at least we're getting a little clearer - I think.

Let's assume for the moment (although I don't believe it) that Rand's intentions were as you say - that a person's character traits (just those which they have developmental control over at least) related to ethics and morality are blank and formed entirely by the volition of the individual.  As you put it...

 The term "character" refers to those elements, particularly those involving ethics and morality, that are open to a person's choice, and what is open to a person's choice is not inherited.

So, words like "intellectual traits", "character", and "cognitive mechanism" really mean ethics and morality.  Hmmm....  But let's run with it regardless.

Once again, you have "defined" the argument into absurdity.  You are now asserting essentially, that whatever nebulous and imprecise pieces of cognition that oh-so-convieniently concern morality that are not inherited,  are in fact what she is referring to, therefore stifling argument.   Nobody would agree that 100% of a person's traits are inherited, so you cannot be wrong.  However, the assertion is rendered meaningless - once again. 

This is exactly the point here with tabula rasa.  Either the assertions are plain wrong (as they are on face value), or they must be defined so narrowly as to be totally useless.  Deja-vu all over again.

Bob


Post 64

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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Bob,

How in the world do you arrive at this conclusion:

 So, words like "intellectual traits", "character", and "cognitive mechanism" really mean ethics and morality.  Hmmm....  But let's run with it regardless



Bill has specifically stated that "cognitive mechanism"  means(according to Rand) "the anatomical mechanism that has the potential for cognition (namely, the brain, sense organs and CNS) but has yet to be actualized".

 
How can there be ethics or morality of any kind assigned to that which is not a actualized mechanism?
 
I have been following this discussion from the start, but I am having trouble making heads or tails out of your last post..
 
L W

(Edited by Mr. L W Hall on 6/28, 10:17am)


Post 65

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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LW,


If you read Bill's other post(s), he very clearly condenses the concepts of "intellectual" and "characterological" traits into "philosophical values" and further clarifies to "ethics and morals".  He has concluded:

What she says is that a person's "intellectual" traits are not transmitted by his internal body chemistry, which is true.

Which is false, or absurd/meaninless.

He also writes:

Rand is also correct that one's characterological traits are not produced and transmitted by one's internal body chemistry, since these are the result of one's choices, which depend on one's knowledge and values.

False.

and

The term "character" refers to those elements, particularly those involving ethics and morality,

Now the argument is meaningless.

That's how I came to the conclusion.... by reading what he wrote - seems like a difficult concept around here.

Bob


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Post 66

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Speaking of "Déjà vu all over again": the Cal-Mac symbiosis here, and continual use of such phrases as "verbal sleight of hand" to describe Rand's intellectual method, puts me in mind of the Daniel Barnes-Next Level alliance of the recent past at this forum.

Regardless, I am coming to some ideas about their intellectual method. Right now, the best phrase to describe it would be "verbal metaphysics." Is it trolling? No. Is it dishonest? Yes and no. There comes a point when a mind is no longer fully aware of its mistake.

More later about my idea perhaps when I have the time.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 6/28, 9:29am)


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Post 67

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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Bob Mac wrote,
Let's assume for the moment (although I don't believe it) that Rand's intentions were as you say - that a person's character traits (just those which they have developmental control over at least) related to ethics and morality are blank and formed entirely by the volition of the individual. As you put it...

The term "character" refers to those elements, particularly those involving ethics and morality, that are open to a person's choice, and what is open to a person's choice is not inherited.

So, words like "intellectual traits", "character", and "cognitive mechanism" really mean ethics and morality.
No, you are lumping these three things together when they are separate and distinct concepts. "Intellectual traits" are a broader concept than "character," referring to any of the ideas that a person holds and considers intellectually important. "Character" refers to a person's moral essence as expressed in the principles he lives by. "Cognitive mechanism," as I indicated in my previous post, means "the anatomical mechanism that has the potential for cognition (namely, the brain, sense organs and CNS) but has yet to be actualized."
Once again, you have "defined" the argument into absurdity. You are now asserting essentially, that whatever nebulous and imprecise pieces of cognition that oh-so-convieniently concern morality that are not inherited, are in fact what she is referring to . . .
"Referring to" in what context and by what statements?
. . . therefore stifling argument. Nobody would agree that 100% of a person's traits are inherited, so you cannot be wrong. However, the assertion is rendered meaningless - once again.
What assertion? If you recall, we've been discussing more than one.
This is exactly the point here with tabula rasa. Either the assertions are plain wrong (as they are on face value), or they must be defined so narrowly as to be totally useless. Deja-vu all over again.
Again, what specific "assertions" are you referring to? The assertion that a child comes into the world "tabula rasa" with a cognitive mechanism that has the potential for cognition but has yet to be actualized? How is that "plain wrong" or "totally useless"? It stands in direct opposition to the doctrine of innate ideas. What Rand is saying in her statement that a person is born "tabula rasa" is that one does not enter the world with any preformed ideas, since one can have no ideas about reality ahead of any contact with it. And since one has no innate ideas, one can have no innate value judgments. One's value judgments and character are formed only after one enters the world and interacts with it.

Or perhaps you are referring to Rand's opposition to the racist view that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. I've already explained what she means by "intellectual" and "characterological" in this context and why, given the meanings she attaches to these terms, what she says is true. Are you now telling me that despite its truth, her statement is totally useless - that it does not communicate her opposition to racism, which was its original intent?

Beyond this, I have no idea why you continue to object to Rand's views on this issue.

- Bill


Post 68

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

There's so much wrong with what you're saying. Where to begin?

 Or perhaps you are referring to Rand's opposition to the racist view that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry.
You don't seem to have a basic grasp of what racism is.   It is a well known fact there is by far more variance in intelligence (and just about any other trait) within a race than between races.  This idea above, while perhaps used by racist types, is in fact not racist at all.  Reality is such that any trait that one can measure almost always shows a stronger link with genetics than environment.  This is totally race-independant.

Reality is in direct opposition to Rand's view.

You wrote in an earlier post:

Rand is also correct that one's characterological traits are not produced and transmitted by one's internal body chemistry, since these are the result of one's choices, which depend on one's knowledge and values.

then

I've already explained what she means by "intellectual" and "characterological" in this context and why, given the meanings she attaches to these terms, what she says is true. Are you now telling me that despite its truth, her statement is totally useless - that it does not communicate her opposition to racism, which was its original intent?

 
Opposition to racism can be argued quite well logically, but not with this argument.  Yes I am telling  you that the statement is useless because it CANNOT be wrong because according to you, or Rand, or both - whatever, the statement cannot be false be the meanings attached to these terms is DEFINED as "that which is not inherited". 

to be precise with your words

 The term "character" refers to those elements, particularly those involving ethics and morality, that are open to a person's choice, and what is open to a person's choice is not inherited.
and

The term "intellectual" in this context does not refer to intelligence but to philosophical values. Rand is also correct that one's characterological traits are not produced and transmitted by one's internal body chemistry, since these are the result of one's choices, which depend on one's knowledge and values.
Again you define all meaning and logic out of your argument - classic begging the question fallacy - again. 

In case you (and others) might have forgotten, begging the question assumes the conclusion in the premises.  Your/Rand's argument boils down to the assertion that "Uninheritable traits are not inherited" and has no argumentative or logical value.

Bob


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Post 69

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Bob,

In answer to my inquiry of how what you stated had anything to do with "cognitive mechanism". You answered:

 If you read Bill's other post(s), he very clearly condenses the concepts of "intellectual" and "characterological" traits into "philosophical values" and further clarifies to "ethics and morals".  He has concluded:

What she says is that a person's "intellectual" traits are not transmitted by his internal body chemistry, which is true.

Which is false, or absurd/meaninless.

He also writes:

Rand is also correct that one's characterological traits are not produced and transmitted by one's internal body chemistry, since these are the result of one's choices, which depend on one's knowledge and values.

False.

and

The term "character" refers to those elements, particularly those involving ethics and morality,

Now the argument is meaningless.

That's how I came to the conclusion.... by reading what he wrote - seems like a difficult concept around here.

Bob



You do not even mention the thrust of my question which was clearly stated as being to do with "cognitive mechanism". The rest of your post consists of making statements like "false", "absurd/meaningless","false", and "meaningless".

You then wrap it up by claiming it seems to be a difficult concept around here to come to a conclusion
which you seemed to have arrived at while not even addressing the question to begin with and further compounding it by calling his views false without any evidence to the contrary.

Plain and simple you are coming off as being evasive.

L W 



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Post 70

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

There's so much wrong with what you're saying. Where to begin?
"Or perhaps you are referring to Rand's opposition to the racist view that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry."
You don't seem to have a basic grasp of what racism is. It is a well known fact there is by far more variance in intelligence (and just about any other trait) within a race than between races.
I agree that when it comes to intelligence, there is greater variation within a race than between races. However, by "intellectual traits," Rand is not referring specifically to a person's intelligence, but to his intellectual values. Nor is she saying that any view that attributes a person's intellectual and characterological traits to his internal body chemistry is racist; she is saying only that racism entails such a view. Here is a more complete statement of her position. You don't have to agree with it, but you should at least understand what she is saying:
Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man's genetic lineage -- the notion that a man's intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

Racism claims that the content of a man's mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content is inherited; that a man's convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. This is the caveman's version of the doctrine of innate ideas -- or of inherited knowledge -- which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science. Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men.

Like every form of determinism, racism invalidates the specific attribute which distinguishes man from all other living species: his rational faculty. Racism negates two aspects of man's life: reason and choice, or mind and morality, replacing them with chemical predestination.
. . . .
Modern racists attempt to prove the superiority or inferiority of a given race by the historical achievements of some of its members. The frequent historical spectacle of a great innovator who, in his lifetime, is jeered, denounced, obstructed, persecuted by his countrymen, and then, a few years after his death, is enshrined in a national monument and hailed as a proof of the greatness of the German (or French or Italian or Cambodian) race -- is as revolting a spectacle of collectivist expropriation, perpetrated by racists, as any expropriation of material wealth perpetrated by communists.

Just as there is no such thing as a collective or racial mind, so there is no such thing as a collective or racial achievement. ("Racism," The Virtue of Selfishness, pp. 126, 127)
This idea above, while perhaps used by racist types, is in fact not racist at all. Reality is such that any trait that one can measure almost always shows a stronger link with genetics than environment.
Any trait that one can measure?? I don't think so!
You wrote in an earlier post:
Rand is also correct that one's characterological traits are not produced and transmitted by one's internal body chemistry, since these are the result of one's choices, which depend on one's knowledge and values.
then
I've already explained what she means by "intellectual" and "characterological" in this context and why, given the meanings she attaches to these terms, what she says is true. Are you now telling me that despite its truth, her statement is totally useless - that it does not communicate her opposition to racism, which was its original intent?
Opposition to racism can be argued quite well logically, but not with this argument. Yes I am telling you that the statement is useless because it CANNOT be wrong because according to you, or Rand, or both - whatever, the statement cannot be false be the meanings attached to these terms is DEFINED as "that which is not inherited".

to be precise with your words
The term "character" refers to those elements, particularly those involving ethics and morality, that are open to a person's choice, and what is open to a person's choice is not inherited.
and
The term "intellectual" in this context does not refer to intelligence but to philosophical values. Rand is also correct that one's characterological traits are not produced and transmitted by one's internal body chemistry, since these are the result of one's choices, which depend on one's knowledge and values.
Again you define all meaning and logic out of your argument - classic begging the question fallacy - again.
If racists claim that the content of a person's mind is inherited - that his convictions, values and moral character as well as his achievements are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control - and Rand points out that this is false, because a person enters the world tabula rasa, and because his convictions, values, moral character and achievements are determined by his choices and acquired knowledge rather than by his genetic lineage, how does this beg the question? Last I checked, pointing out a falsehood does not constitute begging the question!
In case you (and others) might have forgotten, begging the question assumes the conclusion in the premises. Your/Rand's argument boils down to the assertion that "Uninheritable traits are not inherited" and has no argumentative or logical value.
But Rand is not simply saying that "Uninheritable traits are not inherited, because they're uninheritable" which would indeed beg the question; she is saying that the content of one's mind (e.g., one's convictions and moral values) as well as one's achievements are not inherited - that man enters the world without any preformed ideas, values or achievements. To oppose the doctrine of innate ideas by stressing that one is tabula rasa before one has any cognitive contact with reality does not constitute a petitio.

The following analogy - again from Rand's essay, "The Comprachicos" - may help to clarify what she means by "tabula rasa": "Speaking metaphorically, [a person] has a camera with an extremely sensitive, unexposed film (his conscious mind), and an extremely complex computer waiting to be programmed (his subconscious). Both are blank. He knows nothing of the external world. He faces an immense chaos which he must learn to perceive by means of the complex mechanism he must learn to operate." (The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution, p. 190)

Sad to say, there are still people who disagree with this view. But you're not one of them, are you Bob? ;-)

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 6/28, 4:40pm)


Post 71

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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LW:

You asked how I came to this conclusion:

 So, words like "intellectual traits", "character", and "cognitive mechanism" really mean ethics and morality.
Come to think of it, you're right on one account.  It was wrong of me to imply that he had jammed the three concepts into ethics and morality.  I should have ended the sentence with "is that which is defined as blank and is not inherited" instead of " ethics and morality".  It's still fallacious, but I agree I made that error.

Bob 


Post 72

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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Bill

Rand's understanding of Racism is poor at best, and I would describe it as wrong.

Racism claims that the content of a man's mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content is inherited; that a man's convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control.
 This is not what racism is at all.  She is using this nonsensical definition to her own ends to justify a foolish line of reasoning.  She sneaks a hidden premise here that implies that her definitions of convictions, values and even character are defined as not inherited.  This is fallacious. 
This is the caveman's version of the doctrine of innate ideas -- or of inherited knowledge -- which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science.
 Maybe the science of her day, but I even doubt that.  The implication here is that a person's character is dependant on external knowledge.  Wrong by any conventional definition of character.

Anyway, your computer/film analogy is fine.  But the reality is that each computer has built-in propensities like leadership potential, ambition, organizational ability, and a huge assortment of other propensities that are more linked to the MODEL of the computer than it's programming. 

My main point is that for tabula rasa to be true, it must be defined into the meaningless.

Bob


Post 73

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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Bob,

Thanks for the clarification.

L W


Post 74

Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 4:56amSanction this postReply
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This is not what racism is at all.
Ok, so racism is....?!?!?
This is the caveman's version of the doctrine of innate ideas -- or of inherited knowledge -- which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science.
 Maybe the science of her day, but I even doubt that.  The implication here is that a person's character is dependant on external knowledge.  Wrong by any conventional definition of character.

You're not really arguing that we are born with inherited knowledge, are you? Can one be born with the knowledge that 2 + 2 = 4, that the capitol of the U.S. is D.C., etc?
The implication here is that a person's character is dependant on external knowledge.  Wrong by any conventional definition of character.
So whether or not someone will grow up to be a thief or a murderer is predetermined before they are born?!?


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Post 75

Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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JF:

You are correct.  I am not arguing that we are born with external knowledge, at least in the sense where knowledge = facts as in your examples.

However, we certainly "know" things when we are born.  We know how to eat, we know how to learn, and so on.  In addition, we are also born with quite strong character/personality tendencies and traits that are strongly inherited.

My problem is that the concept of tabula rasa is wrong (on face value) or must have knowledge "defined" so narrowly as to beg the question.  My contention is that Rand's brand of tabula rasa has no logical value or basis.

Bob


Post 76

Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Bob, I'm probably the wrong one to attempt to defend tabula rasa, as I surely know a lot less about it then Bill or anyone else. But.... I view it like this. Water has the potential to boil when heated. The brain has the potential to think. Water will not boil in a vacuum. The mind cannot be aware of anything until it has contact with something to be aware of. In both cases the potential is there, but it must be actuated. Water needs to be heated by an external agent. The mind needs contact with an external agent (reality) to "bump" it if you will. Let's try another analogy (I think this one might be better). Alot of people have the misconception that electricty flows through a conductor like water flows through a pipe. But what really happens is the first electron bumps another electron along the chain, which bumps another one, etc. Like a long chain of bumper cars. The potential for the electrons to flow, is always there, but it cannot happen without an external agent (the application of a positive charge). The neurons and receptors of the brain have the ability to fire, but it takes a bump to get them started. That bump is contact with reality.

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Post 77

Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
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As I already mentioned elsewhere Rand's notion of "tabula rasa" was not limited to the cognitive mechanism but also to the emotional mechanism:
Man is born with an emotional mechanism, just as he is born with a cognitive mechanism; but, at birth, both are "tabula rasa". It is man's cognitive faculty, his mind, that determines the content of both. Man's emotional mechanism is like an electronic computer, which his mind has to program - and the programming consists of values his mind chooses.
...
Emotions are produced by man's premises, held consciously or subconsciously. [AR, The Virtue of Selfishness]
So Rand held the absurd notion that all our emotions are the result of the ideas we hold. It's just a question of programming the right ideas and then the good emotions will follow automatically. She apparently really thought that our character has no inherited traits, that it's all "self-made". This is also consistent with the following howler:
No one is born with any kind of "talent" and, therefore, every skill has to be acquired. [AR, Foreword to We the Living].
She doesn't seem to know the difference between "talent" and "skill". Of course "talent" is that what you're born with, and using that talent you can develop the skill. But she literally believes in the tabula rasa, so Mozart had no talent, it was just a question of hard work and everyone who does the same work can achieve the same results as Mozart. Yeah, sure.



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Post 78

Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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Bob wrote,
I am not arguing that we are born with external knowledge, at least in the sense where knowledge = facts as in your examples.

However, we certainly "know" things when we are born. We know how to eat, we know how to learn, and so on. In addition, we are also born with quite strong character/personality tendencies and traits that are strongly inherited.

My problem is that the concept of tabula rasa is wrong (on face value) or must have knowledge "defined" so narrowly as to beg the question. My contention is that Rand's brand of tabula rasa has no logical value or basis.
Prior to any contact with reality, we have no perceptual knowledge, and, accordingly, no conceptual knowledge, which is to say that we have no innate ideas. Far from begging the question, tabula rasa stands in direct opposition to the views of Plato, Descartes and Leibniz who argued that certain of our ideas are inborn and are therefore independent of experience. Locke replied to the contrary that there are no innate ideas, that before its exposure to the external world, the "mind" is an empty surface, and therefore that all of its ideas come from experience, since there is no other possible source from which they could come. Although Rand may stand on the shoulders of Locke in this respect, her opposition to the doctrine of innate ideas most emphatically does not beg any questions, which is an absurd criticism.

This is not to say that we don't have the innate capacity to respond in certain ways to external stimuli, and to acquire perceptual and conceptual knowledge. But acquire it we must. As Rand observes:
A sensation of hunger will tell [man] that he needs food (if he has learned to identify it as "hunger"), but it will not tell him how to obtain his food and it will not tell him what food is good for him or poisonous. He cannot provide for his simplest physical needs without a process of thought. He needs a process of thought to discover how to plant and grow his food or how to make weapons for hunting. His percepts might lead him to a cave, if one is available -- but to build the simplest shelter, he needs a process of thought. No percepts and no "instincts" will tell him how to light a fire, how to weave cloth, how to forge tools, how to make a wheel, how to make an airplane, how to perform an appendectomy, how to produce an electric light bulb or an electronic tube or a cyclotron or a box of matches. Yet his life depends on such knowledge..." ("The Objectivist Ethics," The Virtue of Selfishness, p. 21)
Nor is it to say that we are not born with varying capacities and abilities, which tend to be actualized in various ways and to varying degrees. Moreover, while certain dispositional or personality traits may have a genetic component, a person's character depends on his beliefs and convictions -- on the moral values that he learns or discovers and chooses to practice -- not on his ancestral lineage. The sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons.

-Bill

Post 79

Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan:

I do not have any sunstantial disagreement with what you wrote. 

My problem arises because I think that Rand, as Cal mentioned, offered a wider and deeper meaning of tabula rasa with respect to character traits that is not supported by reality.  Or if that is not the case, then what remains of the argument is fallacious.

Tabula rasa is needed as a basis for other arguments and lines of reasoning, but if it's highly questionable, then so is what follows, regardless of whether the logic is sound.  I find it quite surprising how rational people do not come to the same conclusion. 

This is not to say that people do not have any control over character/emotional development, but it's complex and control is only partial.  People are not like computers in the sense that the same inputs produce the same outputs.  The same inputs produce very different outputs in different people and are highly connected to heredity.

Bob


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