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Post 20

Saturday, September 6, 2008 - 5:16amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

In that violation of individual rights is irrational, I have no trouble lumping it together with irrationality. However, I take your point that it is a sub-set of the broader category. Does irrationally withholding the sale of a piece of property constitute a violation of the buyer's individual rights. No, certainly not. I agree that the irrational seller is within their rights not to sell. The net result of this is an impasse. My point is that impasse is not always - sometimes or even often, maybe - a practical outcome. In cases of wartime, it may not even be a survivable outcome.

We don't entirely disagree on the results of eminent domain. I certainly do not like it any more than you. However, we completely disagree on the potency and danger of irrationality, and on the existence of unlimited choices when a key element of a project is made unavailable. As I said earlier,topography, geology, financial feasibility, and (I'll add) ecology, may easily exclude all other options.

Your assumptions that humans will always find ingenuous ways to agree, or that if agreement fails, there will always be a another alternative, smack more of faith than of logic. If you are endorsing faith, over logic and objectivity, perhaps you should be advocating for some form of catholicism or evangelism, or a mixture thereof that relies on fate or divine intervention! ; )

I am really not disagreeing with you on the importance of preserving the individual rights of the irrational property owner. Those rights are important. What I am saying is that your assumption that everything will 'all work out... somehow" is incorrect. Plus, I am saying that sometimes those projects are also quite essential and important. They may be related to safety, or contribute to national defense (directly or indirectly protecting individual rights).

It is not a simple black and white issue.

jt




Post 21

Saturday, September 6, 2008 - 8:25amSanction this postReply
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Jay,

You said to me, "Your assumptions that humans will always find ingenuous ways to agree, or that if agreement fails, there will always be a another alternative, smack more of faith than of logic. Now, you did put a little winking-face at the end of sentence to imply you might be kidding, but I'll just say that it is NOT faith, but rather a reasoned understanding of human nature. I'd suggest that you take a look and see if your fear of irrationality is logically justified - see if you can find actual evidence for it rather than "what-if" scare-yourself stories. And take a look at everything that has been accomplished without the use of eminent domain.

The only way in which things don't work out 'perfectly' is that some people don't get to do what they want. And what they want might be a very significant improvement over the alternative. But a rational government is NOT instituted for the purpose forcing people to get in line with the most "rational" projects.

You didn't say in your post - do you agree that eminent domain should be abolished (despite your 'faith/reasoning' that it would result in problems caused by irrational people)? Do you still want to keep eminent domain?

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Post 22

Saturday, September 6, 2008 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

urQYou didn't say in your post - do you agree that eminent domain should be abolished (despite your 'faith/reasoning' that it would result in problems caused by irrational people)? Do you still want to keep eminent domain?

I don't like it. I'm undecided about whether it is a necessity. If it is a necessity, I would prefer people like yourself set up the rules to keep any such property exchanges as fair as possible... under the circumstances.

There are cases, such as highways and bridges, where the need for a specific piece of property is clearly evident. Cases where one group or agency solely insist that they have a better economic use for a particular property are not clearly evident - such development can occur elsewhere without infringing upon the rights of a property owner.

Whether there is a clear case for requiring a particular property or not, the question of using a mechanism such as eminent domain will never go away. I do feel that if we cannot abolish it, we should at least carefully limit what it can and cannot do.

I think the outrageous decision of the U.S. Supreme Court to allow using eminent domain to take property for private projects that provide 'higher economic value to the community' represents an inexcusable abuse of power.

As for examples, I think Ike's federal highway system could never have been built as safely and efficiently without eminent domain. Most large projects are quickly held financially hostage by small property owners when it is perceived their land is necessary to the project.

jt







(Edited by Jay Abbott on 9/06, 12:43pm)


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Post 23

Saturday, September 6, 2008 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

We are on opposite sides of an important issue.

You said, "If it is a necessity, I would prefer people like yourself set up the rules to keep any such property exchanges as fair as possible... under the circumstances."

1) There could never be such a thing as a "necessity" to violate an individual right. Either you ignore individual rights, for whatever reason, or you honor them with word and deed.

2) I would NEVER sit in on or go along with any attempt to "fairly" decide how and when to violate individual rights.

You said, "...the question of using a mechanism such as eminent domain will never go away."

Not as long as some people are willing to violate the rights of others.

You said, "I think the outrageous decision of the U.S. Supreme Court to allow using eminent domain to take property for private projects that provide 'higher economic value to the community' represents an inexcusable abuse of power."

Yes, but it is only a difference in degree not a difference of moral versus immoral - not a difference in principle. Someone who refuses to sell his property, for whatever reason, has the right to defend against those who would take it. It doesn't matter what project is involved, or who is taking it (the mob, the community, the state). The reality is that people, including the owner, who has done nothing to anyone else, could be killed as a result of his defense. That is inexcusable and no small part of the fault lies with those who advocate this law.

Making large projects more efficient by violating individual's right is not a proper or moral activity. It is a perversion of the purpose of government.

If I, a private citizen, don't have the right to take your house away from you, how does some group of citizens acquire the right? They have no rights beyond their individual rights.

Jay, any advocacy for eminent domain should be discussed in a Dissent thread - it is certainly inappropriate to advocate for it a thread put forth to discuss privatizing roads.


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Post 24

Saturday, September 6, 2008 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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The problem of eminent domain is that it presumes something - something which originated in the Taking Syndrome times, and is carried over and accepted as immutable truth, regardless as to whether ye reject the Syndrome or not... but - the presumption is not true, as it is based on the tribal viewing of the world... to look at the world as an Individualist world, with the Trading Syndrome viewing, requires a different looking at this, without the presumption being there...

Post 25

Saturday, September 6, 2008 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Robert may be correct in referring to the 'taking syndrome' presumption. Without that presumption, the idea 'eminent domain' is unthinkable. However, I am certain that the consequences I suggested are still quite real. Our national infrastructure would be greatly, maybe critically, reduced if there were no means of breaking stalemates in the sale of real estate. Unquestionably too, any law that could simply break those stalemates is a violation of individual rights. When I referred to "necessity", I was speculating whether there is a need to compromise (please don't explain the dangers of compromise - I'm aware of them).

You feel no compromise is acceptable. I see the dangers of not compromising, and wonder whether we are all missing an important point about such interactions. I am not happy with either side of this argument.

Eminent domain, in any case, is most commonly used for road projects, so it is certainly germane enough for this board. Although we could take it to another board, I suspect we've both staked out our opinions very well here, will only disagree and would run the risk of unintentionally irritating each other.

I will concede that you have the moral high ground on this issue, but not that it is as practical in this world as I'm sure we'd both like. Certainly, I'd love to be convinced otherwise.

jt
(Edited by Jay Abbott on 9/06, 8:05pm)


Post 26

Saturday, September 6, 2008 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
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a short note here - the question raised of infrastructure plays both ways - while great for the 'national defense' in mobilizing coast to coast its military, etc., IT ALSO PLAYS THE SAME TO THE INVADER... whereas decentralized infrastructuring, which would more likely be the case without eminent domain, would play better for internal defensiveness...

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Post 27

Saturday, September 6, 2008 - 11:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

In your Post 11, you wrote,
Bill,

Eminent domain is one of what I consider the more difficult questions for Objectivism. Certainly much of the progress that we have all benefitted from in the US can be traced to developments where eminent domain was employed to force the sale of private properties.
Progress for whom and by whose judgment? Not the people whose properties were taken from them without their consent. Is it a sign of progress to sacrifice the rights of the minority to the needs and desires of the majority? By what standard?

Furthermore, you're assuming that in the absence of eminent domain, these projects would not have taken place through a process of voluntary acquisition? How do you know? No attempt was ever made to offer the owners a price that they may have considered acceptable. They were simply offered the so-called "fair market value" and forced to sell at that price. So how do you know they wouldn't have sold voluntarily had they been offered a higher price? You don't. Nor is it surprising that no such offer was ever made. There was no need to make it, since the state had the legal right to seize the property at whatever price it considered "fair."

Suppose the law were such that the state could seize the properties without offering the owners any compensation. On what grounds could one object? On the grounds that the price isn't "fair." What constitutes "fair" in this context? "Fair" means at whatever price the owner decides to accept. A zero price would be fair if the owner consented to donate the property free of charge; unfair, if he decided not to sell it at the asking price. The only grounds on which one could object to seizing the property without any compensation is the owner's right to the property. Period. Once you concede the right of the state to engage in eminent domain, you are saying that the "owner" possesses the property not by right but only by permission of the state, in which case, the state is the true owner of the property, and the nominal owner simply its caretaker or custodian.

You are concerned about what could happen if an owner can refuse to sell his property to a developer. Compare that with what could happen if the state can seize your property at its arbitrary discretion. Do you really think there's any comparison? Which would you rather have -- the power of an individual to withhold his property from a developer, or the power of the state to expropriate the property of its citizens for whatever it deems to be a "good cause"? Take your pick, because you can't have both. Either you have a right to your property or you don't. There is no third alternative.
I didn't like eminent domain before, and I absolutely hate the way it is being practiced now (under Supreme Court's mockery of justice). However, I do think that here have been tangible benefits to having the mechanism available.
You acknowledge the abuses of eminent domain and its potential for abuse, yet you say that you see "tangible benefits to having the mechanism available." But don't you see? -- either the state has the right to seize your property for a project of its own choosing or it doesn't. If you want to avoid the abuses of eminent domain, you can't give the state that kind of power, to begin with. There are no tangible benefits to the prerogative of eminent domain, just as there are no tangible benefits to institutionalized theft.
I haven't heard any effective alternatives for dealing with the question of the stubborn or greedy landowner. "Go around" isn't always an option.
Oh, I see. The landowner is greedy when he wants to keep his property, but the developer isn't when he seizes the landowner's property without his consent. My oh my! And by what standard? The greatest good for the greatest number? By that standard, there'd be nothing wrong with involuntary medical experiments, if they yielded valuable scientific knowledge from which the majority could benefit. Nor would there be anything wrong with a military draft, if the pay being offered were not attracting enough enlistees. Do you really want to go down that road. You know what lies at the end. A pile of human corpses.

- Bill

Post 28

Sunday, September 7, 2008 - 12:00amSanction this postReply
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Bill wrote:
    You know what lies at the end. A pile of human corpses.


Agreed!
--
Jeff

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Post 29

Sunday, September 7, 2008 - 5:13amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Of course, by the time one has to rely on internal lines of defense, one is already losing.

jt

Post 30

Sunday, September 7, 2008 - 5:25amSanction this postReply
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I suggest attacking Jay's actual arguments here, rather than imagined ones.

"I haven't heard any effective alternatives for dealing with the question of the stubborn or greedy landowner. "Go around" isn't always an option." -JA

"Oh, I see. The landowner is greedy when he wants to keep his property, but the developer isn't when he seizes the landowner's property without his consent. My oh my!" -BD

Jay explicitly condemned use of eminent domain for private development. He provided - but did not perhaps sufficiently emphasize - the rare case such as war:

"In that violation of individual rights is irrational, I have no trouble lumping it together with irrationality. However, I take your point that it is a sub-set of the broader category. Does irrationally withholding the sale of a piece of property constitute a violation of the buyer's individual rights. No, certainly not. I agree that the irrational seller is within their rights not to sell. The net result of this is an impasse. My point is that impasse is not always - sometimes or even often, maybe - a practical outcome. In cases of wartime, it may not even be a survivable outcome."

Jay has a responsibility to provide examples in his arguments. But, rather than piling on dead corpses, his critics have a responsibility to answer his actual arguments.

Post 31

Sunday, September 7, 2008 - 5:51amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

1. I have already conceded the moral high ground to Steve. This extends to all opponents of eminent domain, including you.

2. As practiced in the US until the last two years, eminent domain remained a mechanism only for government projects, not for private developers. In a nod towards the seriousness of the issue, it can only be pursued through the courts, where the seller has rights to challenge both the action and the price.

3. Using eminent domain in the US for private development, thinly cloaked as 'public good', is a relatively recent interpretation. It opens up the system to more widespread abuse.

4. Property owners generally have an extensive time to mutually negotiate a fair price before the mechanism of eminent domain is ever employed. Obviously, the threat of same still hangs over the negotiations, but eminent domain is still generally, legally, the government's method of last resort, and the government must (still, at least) have a good case.

5. I don't think I really need to explain greed. It is certainly not an Objectivist value. It is a materialistic value. Let's just say that when a landowner is asking one million for a property that otherwise has a true market value of $225k, that the owner is not interested in a fair trade.

6. Your point about the draft and involuntary medical experiments is well taken, but they can be handled as separate issues. I've already conceded the moral high ground.

jt

Post 32

Sunday, September 7, 2008 - 6:46amSanction this postReply
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Jay, can you give the strongest possible example of a circumstance under which you believe eminent domain would be justifiable?

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Post 33

Sunday, September 7, 2008 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Strongest scenario... would entail wartime situation, or at least a project related to national defense. We might use as example the need to extend the runways at an existing airbase to accommodate larger military aircraft needing to be positioned, or just needing access at that location. Private owners nearby (let's make it all extreme) are very fond of their koi ponds, and insist it will be too traumatic to their fish if they relocate.

Closer to home, let analysis also consider the case where a highway artery is needed to a) facilitate the trade of goods between two major cities, b) correct existing road hazards, and c) expedite emergency evacuations from hurricane prone areas. Geographical, topological, and practical financial considerations require that the new road runs through parts of several home developments. Going around is not a feasible option. The market values for the properties that would be affected run from $170,000 in certain neighborhoods to $260,000 in others. The government, after negotiation, offers to purchases at prices consistent with the individual values of each property. Eighty percent of the property owners sell. Twenty percent of the property owners ask for $600,000 or more (and start muttering about their koi pond).

While the second case may be more irksome than the first (everyone likes to second guess and question the necessity), I believe that both cases have sufficient merit. The key issues for tolerating any such mechanism as eminent domain would - at a minimum - be that it is a rational, logical project and there is no other possible route. I'd add that existing owners should be compensated - above the fair market value - a fair amount for the inconvenience of being uprooted.

jt



(Edited by Jay Abbott on 9/07, 2:44pm)

(Edited by Jay Abbott on 9/07, 2:47pm)

(Edited by Jay Abbott on 9/07, 2:50pm)


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Post 34

Sunday, September 7, 2008 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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I just finished reading Mr. Stolyarov's article and scanned the comments. I'm all for reducing the size of government in most respects and privatizing, but roads are not a high priority for me. I believe the article has some good arguments. But I have some comments and think some arguments are questionable. Some quoted parts that follow are from "The Necessity of Road Privatization."
I live on the North Shore of Chicago, one of the most affluent areas in the entire United States... with some of the poorest roads I have seen anywhere in the country.
A good part of their being so poor is the huge volume of traffic they bear. The nicest roads tend to be where there is little traffic (or they are new).

The ancients, with far fewer technology than is available in our age, created roads with two thousand times the life expectancy of the average street on the North Shore of Chicago.
That strikes me as a big exaggeration. The ancients also made some roads that lasted far less time, e.g. corduroy roads. The longer-lasting ones were built with huge blocks of stone, they didn't have much traffic, and they were not made smooth enough to handle today's fast-moving vehicles.

Presumably the 2000 number comes from some Roman roads existing that long and assuming a life of only one year for the average street on the North Shore of Chicago. Streets are repaired often, but not a given stretch every year, nor are they  completely torn up and replaced every year. To say each street's life is one year because it needs a little repair now and then is akin to saying a person dies when he/she only has heart surgery.
Consider this: if you were a road entrepreneur, whose foremost concern is not "public service" (I repeat, re-election), but profit, would you seek to magnify your expenses by hiring costly road maintenance crews every year? Or would you use the modern technology at your disposal and incur only marginally higher initial costs to build a road that can serve you over twenty lifetimes without requiring repair?
What evidence do you have for "only marginally higher initial costs"? For what kind of roads are you comparing costs? Lets' consider the location and use of the road. Suppose it's a local street or county road that doesn't get much heavy traffic. Does it make sense to build a very durable but very expensive one? What's so wrong with one that's much cheaper now but needs some repair or even needs replacing many years hence? There is also the financing aspect. Builders (more exactly, financiers) of roads have budgets. Maybe they believe its better overall to spend less on the road now and spend more on something else. Economic allocation decisions are rarely absent.

I found a site addressing the issue of building a brick road versus a reinforced concrete road decades ago. The brick route was chosen even though it cost about twice as much initially. The page says "No mention is made of the comparative expenses of  future maintenance, which would almost certainly have favored the brick roadway." A concrete road likely would have  required more repair, but no attempt was made to back up the claim, using present value numbers (not absolute dollars).

The following is a hypothetical example. The numbers are invented but they illustrate the matter isn't so simple. Suppose the alternatives for the next 40 years are: (1) a concrete road which costs $40 million initially and requires $1 million per year maintenance the last 20 years and (2) an asphalt road costing $20 million up-front and $1 million per year maintenance its last 10 years, replacing it after 20 years at a cost of $35 million and maintenance will cost $1 million per year in years 31-40. (Edit and caveat: One could argue that my numbers are too far apart now, but not for many years past. The cost difference has narrowed a lot recently due to the higher price of oil.)

If you just sum the costs, it's $60 million for the concrete road and $75 million for the asphalt road. However, the present value at 5% of the two roads is nearly the same (about $50 million), with the initial outlays $40 million and $20 million, respectively. Which do you choose? I submit that a private road-builder will face the same kind of alternatives and may choose the one with the lower up-front cost.
Roman troops would often personally labor on the roads they would later use as avenues between their outposts on the empire's borders and channels of communication with the capital.
Slaves, prisoners of war, and convicted criminals also did much of the work (source). 
Converted to private hands, these roads could almost immediately be managed with far superior results than the current state of things brings about. Even if no new roads are built, privatizing the existing ones would greatly increase the quality of transportation and dramatically reduce the amount of road maintenance and traffic delays, which at presently grievously hinder the economic life in virtually all developed countries.
Simply privatizing an existing road isn't going to improve matters instantly in the ways you say. Maybe over a span of years, but not immediately.

Government at any level can contribute to this by agreeing to privatize its existing roads. Say, City X has greed to transfer all of its “public” thoroughfares to private ownership. The city need not suffer financial losses as a result of this. In fact, it can turn a substantial profit by establishing an auction to sell the roads to the highest bidder.
I'd be very wary of a transaction in which a government gets an immediate and huge influx of cash. What will it do with it? The Chicago Skyway was recently "privatized" with a 99-year lease (source). Why do you think it was done? An easy way out of looming government deficits. Like it says in the linked article: "They raise enormous amounts of money, making up for tax increases politicians won't impose. Texas, for instance, plans to raise $7.2 billion from a lease, which is just the first part of an ambitious plan to sink $180 billion into road and rail projects that otherwise would be politically unthinkable."
Of course, new roads will be built under a private system, and at far faster rates than under government control. The moment any private entrepreneur thinks an additional thoroughfare is necessary and profitable, he will begin building one; he will require no extensive political lobbying, no seeking of special-interest favors, no lengthy and tedious committee discussions that paralyze efficiency.
What evidence do you have it would be faster? The private builder of a totally new road would face the obstacle of getting  the right-of-way. That is a very slow process.
(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 9/08, 6:07am)


Post 35

Monday, September 8, 2008 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Good points.

jt

Post 36

Tuesday, September 9, 2008 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Jay.

I think there are some other differences I didn't think of earlier between the Roman roads that Mr. Stolyarov praises and the Chicago North Shore roads he criticizes.  Have the former been subject to the temperature extremes that the latter are subject to? Have the former been subject to the tons of salt that the latter are subject to? Roads deteriorate due to these things, too.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 9/09, 7:35am)


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Post 37

Tuesday, September 9, 2008 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

In Post 31, you write,
Property owners generally have an extensive time to mutually negotiate a fair price before the mechanism of eminent domain is ever employed.
There is no such thing as a fair or unfair price. There is only a fair or unfair exchange. A fair exchange is one that is voluntary; an unfair exchange is one that is involuntary. Insofar as eminent domain constitutes an involuntary exchange, it is, by definition, unfair, regardless of the price the owner receives in exchange for the property.
Obviously, the threat of same still hangs over the negotiations, but eminent domain is still generally, legally, the government's method of last resort, and the government must (still, at least) have a good case.
"Good" for whom and by what standard? If the property owner doesn't consent to accept the the government's offer, then it isn't good for the property owner according to the value that he or she places on the property. A property right makes the owner, not the government, the proper judge of the property's value to the owner.
I don't think I really need to explain greed. It is certainly not an Objectivist value. It is a materialistic value.
That depends on what you mean by "greed." Chapter II in Part III of Atlas Shrugged is entitled "The Utopia of Greed." Contrary to your suggestion, materialistic values are quintessentially Objectivist. But, more to the point, property rights are certainly an Objectivist value and one that prohibits eminent domain.
Let's just say that when a landowner is asking one million for a property that otherwise has a true market value of $225k, that the owner is not interested in a fair trade.
How do you think "true market value" is determined if not by a process of voluntary exchange between buyer and seller? A "true market value" refers to the price at which the owner is willing to sell the property and someone else is willing to buy it. In this case, $225k refers only to the price that a similar property would sell for, because that property does have a willing buyer and seller. But for the property in question, $225k is not the true market value; only a million dollars is, because it is only at that high a price that the property has a willing buyer and seller.

- Bill



Post 38

Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

urQ There is no such thing as a fair or unfair price.

I have some gasoline I'd gladly sell you for $22/gallon.

urQ Good" for whom and by what standard

I explained this in an earlier post. The government's REASON for not wanting, but for needing, to purchase should a clearly evident. This is what I mean by "good cases".

urQ Contrary to your suggestion, materialistic values are quintessentially Objectivist.

There is more than one definition for materialism. However, the definition most commonly used is "tendency to consider material possessions and comfort as more important than spiritual/philosophical) values" (Oxford American Dictionary). Rand soundly criticized materialism.

urQ How do you think "true market value" is determined if not by a process of voluntary exchange between buyer and seller?

Decidedly... not by the voluntary exchange between one buyer and one seller. True market value can be determined by a fair and objective market analysis of the subject property and similar properties. The final price may be a little more or a little less than the true market value. However, when the seller is demanding a price clearly inconsistent with the true fair market value of the property - over double the fair market value in our example - he is certainly not interested in a fair exchange. His irrationally high price is just a price. It has no bearing or relation upon the true fair market value.

jt


(Edited by Jay Abbott on 9/13, 7:39pm)


Post 39

Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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Jay, $22 is an unreasonable price. But it is not an unfair price. No one is forced to pay it. To be stupid is not to be unfair. Only if the government forced you to purchase at $22 or him to sell at $.22 would the price be "unfair." And even then, it would be the forced transaction , not the price itself that would be unfair. Nothing agreed to be consent of all involved is unfair.

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