RoR: Forum

John,

Go back and read the article. York isn't denigrating football as a sport. She's denigrating the grotesque on-field behavior of the players, their body piercings and tattoos and the offensive commercials and musical antics accompanying this spectacle. I'm not going to repeat her criticisms. They're there in black and white for all to see, if only those who attack her would pay attention to what she is actually saying.

If you want to take issue with her article, address it directly and respond specifically to her comments. This is something her critics have conspicuously avoided. Instead they've made unwarranted and insupportable accusations of racism and Nazism. If anyone is over-reacting here, it is her critics, not those who've supported and defended her.

- Bill

Post 41

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 3:44pm

I never accused her of racism or of supporting Nazism. So I'm sure you didn't mean to include me Bill as one of those 'critics' who did that.

And I believe I have taken issue with the article. She hasn't identified what the philosophical principles should be for comparing a sporting event as inferior to another. I did read "butt slaps" and "tatoos" as some kind of evidence of a degenerate culture. I would have to take issue with that as I don't find either of those things particularly offensive, and if one does, that's purely something to be chalked off to personal preference, and not as some kind of objective standard for judgment. And then she wondered what the rest of the world thinks of Americans of our "past-times". Yet there is far more grotesque behavior to be observed from your typical European soccer match then there is to observe from your typical NFL game.

Her essay amounts to nothing more than a rant. She hasn't explained what we should expect to see from a sporting event nor has she provided any examples of what would be a superior sporting event.

Post 42

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 3:44pm

Besides, comparisons to the rest of the world is non-objective - just because, for instance, the US post office 'does it better' than the rest of the world make it a 'good thing'? [assuming that it even does that]

Post 43

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 4:54pm

I only got into this because Campbell called her a fascist and racist for her criticism.

Sheesh, I only got into this because my Minnesota Vikings were intentionally kept out of the SuperBowl via 5 corrupt, back-to-back referee calls at the end of the game with the New Levee Saints ...

Post 44

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 5:00pm

John,

How many times do these European soccer matches result in some violence in the stands or rioting in the streets?

That was my point.

European -- and especially South American! -- soccer matches often end in violence. This is because of the relative statism in those countries. The more statist a country is, the more its people become rivalrous and violent. This is not only not discouraged by statist leaders and thinkers, it is cunningly encouraged.

It is part of the recipe for keeping man enslaved.

Ed

Post 45

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 5:29pm

Bingo.

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 5:41pm

John wrote,

I never accused her of racism or of supporting Nazism. So I'm sure you didn't mean to include me Bill as one of those 'critics' who did that.

Of course, and I apologize if I did so by implication.

And I believe I have taken issue with the article. She hasn't identified what the philosophical principles should be for comparing a sporting event as inferior to another.

Correct, she hasn't. I suspect that she's operating simply from her own sense of life and personal standards of good taste.

I did read "butt slaps" and "tatoos" as some kind of evidence of a degenerate culture. I would have to take issue with that as I don't find either of those things particularly offensive, and if one does, that's purely something to be chalked off to personal preference, and not as some kind of objective standard for judgment.

Right, butt slaps are simply an expression of camaraderie, encouragement and support. But when these athletes get half their body covered in tattoos, it says something about what they consider important. In my opinion, multiple tattoos are an ugly defacement of the human body -- a defacement of man himself, as if he is unhappy in his own skin. Where do you see the most tattooed people? In prison and among professional athletes. Hopping and strutting around like some primate in the wild is also not something that I like to see from a grown man -- a human being -- although I'd have trouble mounting a strong philosophical defense against it. At this point, it's simply a sense of life preference.

I'd say similar things about the other points that she mentioned with regard to the commercials and the music. When the half-time music came on, it was so bad, I had to turn off the TV. I would have preferred simply to see the game itself without all of the commercials and ancillary entertainment. I will say, however, that in previous superbowls, the commercials were of a much higher quality -- some of them very catchy and entertaining.

And then she wondered what the rest of the world thinks of Americans of our "past-times". Yet there is far more grotesque behavior to be observed from your typical European soccer match then there is to observe from your typical NFL game.

I think she'd probably find that objectionable too.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 2/26, 6:19pm)

Post 47

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 6:06pm

I'm not sure butt slaps are a sign of cultural decline, but piercings and tattoos certainly strike me as such. Primitive, self mutilating, cognitively distracting, incoherent symbols of a mystically muddled secondhand soul.

Post 48

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 7:02pm

I will say, however, that in previous superbowls, the commercials were of a much higher quality -- some of them very catchy and entertaining.

Same here. I think Frito Lay should seriously consider suing the agency that came up with those horrible Dorritos ads. Not only did they give me zero motivation to buy the product, they made me want to avoid Dorritos at all costs. It appears they're deliberately marketing to the insane, but why? The real test would be to get the sales figures before and after the ad aired. I only hope sales fell through the floor, but if they didn't, what does that say about the culture? Nothing good, I assure you.

The single arguably smart Dorritos ad turned out to be the saddest of them all, because it was the truest comment on popular culture. The young child of a single mother assumes a familiar adult role, smacking his mom's date in the face after the man watches his very attractive mommy tick-tock from the room, then dip into a bowl of the chips.

"Keep your hands off my momma, and keep your hands off my Dorritos."

Post 49

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 11:08pm

I apologize to Steve for calling him stupid and ignorant which he is not. Sometimes wrong, not stupid. I was unable to edit the offending post.

Post 50

Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 6:35am

Thanks, Mike. I may not be stupid by my language was... sorry.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 2/27, 6:36am)

Post 51

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 11:51pm

Congratulations Ms Alexandra York. Brilliant Article and Review of the Super Bowl. One just has to look at the most recent 2 or three replies to understand reaction pro and con to your Article. William Dwyer , 70 praised your review, while much younger , Howard Campbell called you a nasty name. The Young people in America today, JUST DON'T GET IT!

All you have to do is look at the photos of the two persons replying to understand the problem. Its is called "Generation Gap" Mr William Dwyer, has lived through the " Golden Age" America. He has seen Great Actors like Gregory Peck, and Marlon Brando, and Great Actresses like Lauren Bacall, and the Original Marilyn Monroe, while, Mr Campbell is left with sloppy seconds, imitation of Marilyn by Madonna, Sean Penn, and George Clooney. Its like that old saying "those who don't know history, just repeat it.

About the Halftime program of "The Who" .Why The Who Ms York, because pop music is in deep doo doo as the CEO of Top Music Company said at the Grammys. Music is in deep trouble, for every musicians on stage, there are thousands of musicians trying to survive. Why, because the young people today believe everything should be free , free ,free, download on IPODs, MP3 players etc. No charge. Don't understand about talent and getting paid for it, just an example of SPOILED BRATS OF AMERICA, WHICH THE SUPER BOWL IS A REFLECTION OF THIS AMERICAN CULTURE OF 2010, so most contemporary music being produced is crap like Rap . Rock Music peak with talent with the Beattles, Rolling Stones Neil Young and Led Zeppellin....AND ..
NEIL DIAMOND!

The light show during 'The Who" performance is Archaic and Primitive. Suggestions for Pop Culture America, look at what China is producing in Rock Concerts, every week hundreds of thousands of people at a rock concerts with fantastic , stage design and computer generated lighting, make the West's Rock n Roll concerts look antiquated
and primitive ! Get yourselves a Satelite TV AND SEE WHATS GOING ON IN CHINA, DIRECT LIVE FROM BEIJING, China,
AND....
I also watch American TV commercials and have NO IDEA WHAT THEY SELLING .....and yes, they are just PLAIN DUMB !.......AND then check out HIGH QUALITY, INTELLIGENT TV COMMERCIALS WITH HIGH QUALITY PHOTOGRAPHY , DESIGN AND MESSAGE ...Chinese Commercials from China....

And yes, Mr. William Dwyer, as you said, American Culture is definitely in a downward Spiral, and young Americans don't realize it, because they have never ever experienced high quality, in Ameican Culture. Ask any American over 50 years old.................

Congratulations Mr Alexandra York, Great Article and Review............BRAVO!

Post 52

Friday, February 26, 2010 - 11:54pm

Dear Ted Keer:
Triumph of the Will, Great Documentary film.
Leni Riefenstahl said in a TV interview documentary that she spent her entire life after making this film, denying she was a Nazi!

Post 53

Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 9:24am

The Lone Ranger wrote,

I also watch American TV commercials and have NO IDEA WHAT THEY SELLING.

Exactly! They've lost the message in the medium! It's a failure to focus on essentials, on what's important. You see the same thing in movies, in which the plot or story is now subordinated to the pyrotechnics and the special effects.

- Bill

Post 54

Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 10:00am

I did some consulting for a large ad agency once... And it convinced me that I'd never pay for any marketing whose effectiveness couldn't be easily measured (coupons, requested discount, etc). The agencies generate a sales pitch that is geared to sell their services. That is the driving effort of the agency and very nearly divorced from everything else done by the agency. The production department designs the ads, and their primary drive appeared to be the winning of awards and the appreciation of their peers. Notice that the connection to the buying customer doesn't dominate in either of those two drives, and that, I suspect, is part of why we have the ads of today.

Post 55

Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 10:39am

Steve: "The production department designs the ads, and their primary drive appeared to be the winning of awards and the appreciation of their peers. Notice that the connection to the buying customer doesn't dominate in either of those two drives, and that, I suspect, is part of why we have the ads of today."

For an in-depth look at all that, check out THE FALL OF ADVERTISING AND THE RISE OF PR by Al and Laurie Ries.

Post 56

Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 10:53am

I work for one of those agencies, Steve. It's often my job to come up with shiny new ideas that will appeal to our clients first, but some of the crap they're selling is plain embarrassing, and just goes further to agree with Alexandra.

A recent example involves the marketing department of Government Motors. I was shown a photograph of a female model wearing an expensive fashion tank top with a large embroidered logo smack dab on the tip of the left bust. I was told this is exactly what they wanted. I argued for several minutes that the instructions had to be a mistake, that the placement was vulgar and should never be done intentionally that way. I was told "that's what they want."

An executive assistant in the office sympathized with my dismay, but ended with "sex sells."
I was, and still am outraged.

Post 57

Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 11:15am

Part of the downward spiral is almost a self-esteem issue. The worse the product or service becomes in a deteriorating market, the more those pimping for it sense a gap between their marketing claims and the products actual worth. And from there it is a short hop to selling something other than the product or service. Their opinion of themselves or of what they are selling diminishes and it is becomes much easier to start selling boobs.

The man who said, "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle," had no idea it would lead to a complete break with reality and end up with ads selling something not even related to the steak. There is a basic causality involved in valid thinking where one thought LOGICALLY connects to the next. What kind of psycho-epistemology is involved where the only connection between a product and the add is a model's left breast?

Joe, Thanks, I'll take a look at that book. I had fun at the ad agency and created some good software, but it was eye-opening.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 2/27, 11:17am)

Post 58

Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 11:24am

There is a flip-side book to that - The Fall of PR and the Rise of Advertising, by Engeseth, which came out 5 years later...

Post 59

Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 2:43pm