RoR: Forum

Post 80

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 12:17pm

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Well, Its good to hear that some Jewish folks found the "true" holyland!!!!

&

Sure we got us some non-Christians! Hell we love'em, we got us a brand spankin' new Mosque in town now. Folks take their kids out to look at some "genuine" A-rab's. If the're lucky the kids will get to hear "Aaaalalalalalalalalalalala on the loudspeaker. Five shows a day. Its more popular than the local zoo! (I bet ya think I'm kiddin'.... don't cha'!) :-o

gw

(Edited by gary williams on 7/20, 9:46pm)

Post 81

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:22pm

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Aw, come on. Be fair.

Austin, Texas is a very liberal place. The main business there is state government and the University of Texas. They all love socialism and lifestyle progressiveness. They just hate property and freedom of contract. They are just like the East and West Coasts.

You will also find liberal enclaves in Dallas and Houston. It that is all you feel comfortable with, just stay in those areas of the state. But own your property and run your business in the other areas of the state.

It is California, not Texas, that really scares me! The rest of Texas is just a bunch of home buddies who will not mess much with you if you do not mess with them. Most the Texans I know like it so much there that they do not want to ever leave the state.

Post 82

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:34pm

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Most the Texans I know like it so much there that they do not want to ever leave the state.

Yes, I've lived in Texas for nearly 11 years now and would prefer it to anywhere else in the US, for many reasons.

Post 83

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 9:23pm

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Hey, I love Texas! Thats why I decided to be born here!!!!!!!!

also,

I do not go to California any more unless it's to the wine country. (Boy, do I sound like a snob!!!) But, it's a guilty pleasure and it means mucho business!!!! (Hey!, I'll take money from socialists any day!!!) also, I haven't been to Austin since Stevie Ray died! (Austin City Limits has not been the same!) and, Yes, I watch PBS, Oh what the hell, I paid for it!!!

Hong? -
Don't you live in Houston?..... How's the humidity treating you? ....Oh, and, run baby run from that damn Hurricane!!!

There is not a braver women in the world, than a women who is willing to face the humidity of Houston, Texas in summer!!!! fyi...Sewers in Houston are not for sewage, they are for sweat!!!

gw

(Edited by gary williams on 7/20, 9:49pm)

Post 84

Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 9:44pm

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Chuck!

Home buddies?

Man, you really need to work on yer colloquialisms, dude!

Now have I gone and started arguing Okra? Oh, man I hate that!!! Damn you little gary, now I can't concentrate!!!

Oh, and this ain't supposed to make any sense! I'm just having fun and abusing my keyboard!!!!! All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!!!!!

Besides, looking for those damn nunchakus can drive a guy crazy!!!

gw

Post 85

Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 8:03am

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Hong? -
Don't you live in Houston?.....

Nope.

Post 86

Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 10:26am

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Oops! Sorry.

Post 87

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 9:44am

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The athiesm distinction is one reason I don't call myself objectivist.

I think there is some truth to the notion that objectivists are athiests because Rand was born and raised in Soviet Russia and therefore did not evolve as a person with Christianity as her guide. I think that if Rand was thoroughly American, you would see objectivism with a more diestic quality. Rand rationalized a lot. If she wanted something in or out of her philosophy, she found a way to rationalize it. In her personal life, she rationalized infidelity. She rationalized Rachmaninov being great and Bach sucking. I think Athiesm was integrated with objectivism in the same way.

I can find no deal breakers between the idea that there is a "primary mover" or "designer" who bestowed absolute free-will and Rand's philosophy which is, as she put it, "a philosophy for man's life on Earth." The designer creates the playing field...says do whatever you want on it...and Rand says, "ok...here are the rules to have the most fun." Neither did Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Lysander Spooner, Ethan Allen, etc... the more serious thinkers of their time.

The obvious questions is, "Brad..how do you know YOU aren't rationalizing Diesm because YOU are thoroughly American?" Because I wouldn't go to a museum and question whether a particular painting has a painter. Nor would I go to IHOP and order meatloaf. If I did, I wouldn't question whether there is a cook (although sometimes you wonder). And I certainly wouldn't be impressed by my waitress if she were to argue that my meatloaf is the end product of a mysterious explosion...a loud *pop*...a big *bang* that just sorta happened in the kitchen...leaving my plate adorned with the most flavorful slice of meatloaf available. The whole scenario is absurd...yet this is the pretty much the intellectual track athiests are on. When I look at the moon, or the ocean, or a tree...I'm fine accepting that these "creations" have a creator somewhere along the line. That understanding doesn't interfere with my knowledge that running into the tree head first will result in bodily injury. Or that jumping into the ocean when sharks are present is anti-life and therefore immoral.

And to be honest, I don't really care for someone who would seriously deny that a painting in a museum had a painter. I'd rather watch South Park.

Now what or who the creator is...as religions attempt to address/answer is a very different question than whether there is a creator.
(Edited by Lyman Bradford
on 7/22, 9:54am)

Post 88

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 10:05am

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because Rand was born and raised in Soviet Russia and therefore did not evolve as a person with Christianity as her guide.

Wrong.

Rand (b. 1905) was born in the highly Orthodox Tsarist Russia, though in a Jewish Family. When Bolshevik took over in 1917, she was already in her teens. Her atheism has nothing to do with atheist Soviet. People who say so are obviously rationalizing and such rationalization is not even based on facts.

Post 89

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 10:33am

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I disagree. Rand's family was jewish. But not all jewish people are orthodox. In fact, I have several jewish friends spread out across the U.S. and each and every one of them, although aware of what judaism encompasses, refuses to practice religion of any kind. The fact that Rand's real name was Rosenbaum really has no bearing on her athiest/religious upbringing.

Also, your post seems to suggest that Russia was orthodox (religious) at one point and quickly became athiest upon bolshevik revolution. Either that or you are suggesting Russia is not really athiest...which would be contrary to fact. To the first suggestion, countries do not become "athiest" over night simply because one ruling party wrestles control of government from another party. If Russia emerged as a largely athiest country its only because there was no significant religious foundation to begin with.

Take the U.S. for example. If there was a soviet revolution in America, it would take hundreds of years for this nation to be regarded as even remotely athiest...and that's only after 300 years of Christianity. If Russia was as orthodox as you suggest, such that Rand was raised in a religious community that shaped her thoughts, it would hardly be athiest even in our lifetime.

To the second suggestion, I recall in one of Rand's interviews with Phil Donahue that she herself admitted that Russia was largely an athiest country at the time of her upbringing. She explained that there was never any influence on her to become "religious." "Christianity" was like an unfortunate social problem that Americans are plagued with...but which wasn't a problem in Rand's homeland.
(Edited by Lyman Bradford
on 7/22, 10:37am)

Post 90

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:19am

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Diamond,

The Russian Orthodox Church was the official church of Tzarist Russia. Communism was the official religion of the U.S.S.R.

Rand's family was Jewish but I do not believe they were Orthodox (capital O) Jews. I believe Orthodox Jews would have seen to it that she was raised religiously. She was jewish, but she was not Jewish in the religious context.

The lack of quality/quantity to the records of Tzarist Russia really limits any viable census of who was actually an atheist or not.

The question of Russia becoming atheistic quickly under Communism? - Guns pointed at heads tends to "convert" many people.

The deal breaker for me believing in a "primary mover" or "designer" is a little playing field called the "Laws of Physics".

gw

(Edited by gary williams on 7/22, 1:23pm)

Post 91

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:29am

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Also, your post seems to suggest that Russia was orthodox (religious) at one point and quickly became athiest upon bolshevik revolution.

Huh??

Please, never ever assume what I might suggest. I don't suggest anything. What I write down is exactly what I mean. Though I'd be glad to clarify anything in my posts that are unclear, I neither have time nor desire to respond to other people's assumptions of what I "seem to suggest".

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 7/22, 11:54am)

Post 92

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:57am

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Maybe this question is more helpful. Do you see any parallel between your country and your religious views and Ayn Rand's country and her religious views?
(Edited by Diamond Lyman
on 7/22, 1:17pm)

Post 93

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:34pm

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BTW...I think it's absurd to ask people not to make assumptions and or suggestions about your posts. Every post, no matter how substantive or articulate requires some degree of reading between the lines. Its just a fact of communication. And because we are not perfect beings, errors will be made by those attempting to read between the lines to better understand your argument. Thus clarification is required from time to time.

This is particularly true of shorter, less informative posts. I simply don't understand what you were trying to say in your brief response to my post. You have concluded that Rand's atheism has nothing to do with Soviet Russia. I don't completely disagree. But that wasn't MY point. I merely said that Rand wasn't indoctrinated by Christianity during her childhood, Russia being a predominately atheist country. Your true statement that Rand's family was jewish further strengthened my position that she was not brought up in a Christian atmosphere even if Tsarist Russia was "highly orthodox" (the eastern catholic church).

So my position still stands. Rand might have rationalized deism or some other acceptance of divine creation had she been brought up believing it. I think we have both made clear that her family did not raise her as such.

My extra-curricular comment is that Russia must not have been very religious to begin with if it quickly converted to Atheism simply by a change in government policy. Even if Muslims invaded and conquered America AND held guns to our heads demanding that we believe in Islam, it would take hundreds of years before anyone could honestly conclude that our nation is "Muslim." Americans simply wouldn't allow their core beliefs to be changed by such circumstances. Russians themselves claim to be atheists...and I think that's telling.
(Edited by Diamond Lyman
on 7/22, 1:31pm)

Post 94

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 1:18pm

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Diamond,

Define "thoroughly American."

We atheists can find our Big Bang using causality. Can you find your creator? We know where meatloaf comes from. Do you know where your creator comes from? We can follow the meatloaf from your plate to the waitress to the kitchen to the cook to the butcher to the cow etc.... Can you do the same with your creator.

I believe Hong was quite clear. You seem to be making all of the suggestions and assumptions. Please use more facts and less allegory so that we weak minded atheist can understand.

Hong,

Sorry, I jumped in here uninvited. God, (oops!) knows you don't need my help!

gw

p.s. Diamond, if you need someone to debate Russian history - I'm your man!

(Edited by gary williams on 7/22, 1:20pm)

Post 95

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 1:36pm

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Gary,
Thanks! I am always more than happy to let others do the work!

I thought your post #90 already said everything I could have said very clearly. And you are right that Diamond Bradford Lawyerman, or whoever he is, "seem to be making all of the suggestions and assumptions".

Btw, I am also interested in Russian history, naturally. I've read Robert Massie's Peter the Great, and consider it almost THE best book, fiction or nonfiction, that I've ever read.

Hong

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 7/22, 1:38pm)

Post 96

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 2:50pm

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Hong,

I believe Peter the Great is one of the most interesting human beings who has ever lived. (and I can prove his existence!)

Massie's book is to me the perfect biography. I saw the Peter the Great exhibit at Fair Park in Dallas a few years ago and it was incredible! I would look at certain pieces and then try to reference them to places in the book! Geeky, but great fun!

gw

(Edited by gary williams on 7/22, 3:02pm)

Post 97

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 1:39pm

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"Define thoroughly American"

I don't know...I think I was pretty clear. Maybe you should go climb a tree and stop bothering me about the precision of my comments.

**

For the purposes of that particular post, I used thoroughly American to distinguish between people born, raised, and educated in America from those who were born, raised, and educated elsewhere and may have later come to America and gained citizenship...as I believe Rand did. That is the extent of my intent behind that phrase. I did not mean to suggest that Rand was less American than you...or vice versa...only that by being raised in America, a person's beliefs and values may differ from the beliefs and values of someone raised in a different country and this COULD have some bearing on a person's "philosophy" if they eventually develop one.

Post 98

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 2:02pm

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"We atheists can find our Big Bang using causality. Can you find your creator? We know where meatloaf comes from. Do you know where your creator comes from? We can follow the meatloaf from your plate to the waitress to the kitchen to the cook to the butcher to the cow etc.... Can you do the same with your creator?"

I don't know where my creator comes from and I think its arrogant/presumptuous for me to think I could. I don't have a problem admitting that I haven't unlocked all the secrets to the universe as apparently some believe they have. I just know my dinner is cooked...by a cook. And I don't question whether the cook exists..I just eat my dinner. Likewise, I just see the sun, the moon, and the stars and I enjoy the view. Its no surprise to me that the people who waste time "figuring it all out" die poor.

***

Pagan Serenity Prayer (Adjusted for Relevance)

God & Goddess grant me:

The power of water, to accept with ease & grace that some things cannot be known..

The power of fire, for the energy & courage to learn the things that can be known..

The power of Air, for the ability to know the difference.

And the power of Earth, for the strength to continue my path.
(Edited by Diamond Lyman
on 7/22, 3:56pm)

Post 99

Friday, July 22, 2005 - 5:24pm

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Diamond,

First, About me going and climbing a tree and not bothering you? Ain't gonna happen, Pancho! You posted and your fair game.

Second, I'm going to leave the response to the second part of your post #97 to Hong, you know, her not being "thoroughly American" and all. (She is thoroughly Texan though!)

Third, You are not arrogant/presumptuous, you appear to be ignorant/thin skinned. The problem with people who look at things and just know that they are, is that they are easily fooled by appearances. The world was once flat wasn't it? Or was it? Hmm? It sure as hell appeared flat. Then lo and behold, one of those pesky "figuring it all out" people shows up and I'll be jiggered, THE WORLD AIN'T FLAT AFTER ALL! Then, just like falling dominos - The Sun is not the center of the universe - The planets don't orbit the Earth - The Moon isn't made of cheese etc....etc...etc...

Fourth, "Figuring it all out" is far from being a waste of time. Not thinking is the biggest waste I can think of. Those who figured things out have made us all the richest generation in history.

We really dig debate here man, but your going to have to bring more than weak conjecture and feeble allegory to the table. God (oops! Damn it!) knows I've been spanked for being sloppy a time or two myself

And remember, do not post something for debate and then when you don't like the response say "stop bothering me." Debate or leave.

gw

p.s. Now stop bothering me, I'm re-reading Robert Massie's book! (Thanks Hong, you got me all fired up about it again!!!)

Are Objectivists REALLY Atheists?