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Post 20

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
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Man made God in his image, and the diversity of man has made the concept of God equally diverse.

We can't be right or wrong in any answer, without defining the question. If we are to trust Webster then God is everything from a supernatural supreme reality which clearly is an irrational contradiction in terms, to a very rational ruler of great power.

Theism on the other hand is defined as "belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of man and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world" where the notion of anything thought to be transcending our world is irrational.

Based on Webster it would seem that we can hold non-theistic beliefs in a natural god, or hero.

Atheism is divided in two groups; weak atheism which is the absence of belief in the existence of deities and strong atheism which is the belief that no deities exist.

"1.  Is it rational to have a "relationship" with a dead person?"
Yes it is rational; if your mind should be attracted to the intellectual remains, the thoughts she had that has been translated to the thoughts you have, it would be a natural relationship between you and something real. You and your brain.

"2. Why do we care that we "honor" Ayn Rand?  She doesn't care.  She's dead. "
We care, because we care... we are not honoring Rand for Rand, we are honoring the part of Rand that has become a part of us. We are honoring our memory of Rand. We are celebrating our own geniality in decrypting Rands thoughts and making them our.

"2. A. The ideas live on, true, enough.  Then, honor the ideas. [snip] Living things are alive.  Ideas are not."
Why aren't ideas alive? They are not static, they can even reproduce.

4. Ancestor worship [snip] to me, it indicates that someone acknowledges that Ayn Rand's spirit continues to live even after her body has died."
The parts of our brain that has been altered by learning from Rands is very much alive. I see nothing supernatural about the memory of Rand. Using ashes, pictures, statues or golden calves to stimulate these memory patterns would seem perfectly natural to me.

I think of Rand therefore my memory of Rand is. But just like Magrittes picture of a pipe was a picture of a pipe and not a pipe, then the memory of Rand is exactly that. We can read Rand and discover things in her writing that we will take as our thoughts in relation to our lives and the context of our present culture, or we can include our image of Rand in that process and discover things in her writing that we can understand in relation to the life we belive she have had, this can aid us in reasoning, it will give another cultural context, as valid as any, by wich we can understand the concepts we discover in relation to our own life, and through that translate it to the context of our present culture.
(Edited by Sųren Olin
on 7/10, 6:03pm)


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Post 21

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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'Weak atheism' is the abscence of believing, and 'strong atheism' is believing?  Rubbish!!  The Doubting Thomas is the stronger person - anyone can believe - is easy, just suspend thinking...

Post 22

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 1:46amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for pointing this out, Robert. Absence of evidence is no evidence, and served as belief strong atheism could seem as irrational as the beliefs they try to reject.

I would though categorize conviction of the truth of a phenomenon based on examination of evidence as belief, rational belief, but belief nonetheless.

I would not see weak atheism as absence of believing, but as the absence of believing in certain things specifically. Atheism, weak or strong, is belief and often based on thinking, though weak atheism could be the inevitable result of no thought at all.

The notion of supernatural is, therefore it is. While supernatural itself is irrational and for the very same reason. Supernatural is false, belief in supernatural is a true belief in something false, by definition.

Atheism however does not claim to reject supernatural, rather it rejects the existence of deities - deities can be both natural and, by definition, irrational supernatural. As Atheism rejects all deities, rational and irrational, true and false equals false, atheism could be said to be irrational... my head is spinning.

Post 23

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 2:15amSanction this postReply
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You are making the same error as Socrates did - 'all is beliefs, and knowledge is merely beliefs with certainty'.. But Knowledge and beliefs are not the same thing - knowledge comes from the use of the faculty of reason, while beliefs are merely suppositions of wishfulness [whether positive or negative is irrelevant]... deities presume the supernatural, so to believe in deities is to believe in the supernatural - and thus the absence of belief in deities is at the same time an absence in belief of supernatural...thus atheism is not a belief...

Post 24

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 3:52amSanction this postReply
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Robert, If knowledge when seen as belief with certainty, is erroneous, then i am clearly in error, though my faculty of reason tells me otherwise, I am not currently equipped to take my reasoning further than i have done in my previous post. From a belief, not proven nor proven wrong - as seen by me - that you hold a truth based on more thorough scrutiny than mine, i will hold your alleged knowledge as my belief, not as an absolute truth, but as a possible truth, subject to doubt, but with certainty a belief that will ultimately lead to knowledge, if for or against - not knowledge of a universal truth - but a private knowledge of my truth, which i only hours ago, would have called belief.

Oh my Robert! Now i don't believe what to know.

(Edited by Sųren Olin
on 7/11, 4:03am)


Post 25

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 4:14amSanction this postReply
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I can't wait 'til Robert sees that last post.     ROFL

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Post 26

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
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It appears that Soren just disappeared in a puff of logic. He thunk himself into nothingness!
Now, if you believe that then you'll believe... ;-) 


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Post 27

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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There's a good deal of honesty in many agonostics, and I admire that. It is easier to be one nowadays, but at one time, it was prosecuted at least as meanly as anything else. Isn't that how it always , though?- Our Way Or The Highway. Well...not quite, more like Our Way Or We Pull Off Your Toenails. But that's a whole other  dang thing... about the only useful thing I can salvage out of my comments so far is recommending checking out a Ken Russell film starring Oliver Reed called The Devils, which is based on a work by Huxley called The Devils of Loudoun... but I digress. Do me a favor, though- if you have any squeamish Fundamentalist associates you have it in for, invite them to watch it with you.

There are lifelong agnostics, but on the whole I think there are more who go through a period of agnosticism and then either become atheist, or convert.  In the Unitarian Universalist world, we talk about people who are "seeking". I know someone who is a seeker that has been coming to our church for seven years and still hasn't joined (which is about as hard as signing a directory).

Nowadays, I have seen attacks made on agnostics that are even more severe than those I have seen made on atheists, and that troubles me. Being 47, I remember when atheists were pointed out to me like they were lepers. I search for substance in these newer, meaner attacks on agnostics, but all it seems to be centered on is painting them as spineless, incapable of making a decision about anything, least of all that...

If you look at the nature of conversions, you learn things that help you understand that there are different types of them, why they occur, and what types of religions are converted to; there are particular characteristics and circumstances to be studied. For instance, there are those for which only conversion to a highly supernatural-based religion will do.

If you look at the word "agnostic," it is good to look at the word "gnostic"- he who claims to have direct spiritual experience with The Divine. Gnostics were persecuted long before atheists and agnostics, and it's easy to see why they were, and still are: what you are talking about is an individual, personal religious consciousness- and that does not bow to standard ecclesiastical structures. It is no friend to those who would control. Sound familiar? Autonomy, individual freedom, trust in one's own mind, experience? Historically speaking, churches are no more or less immune to this than political parties. For instance, I look at the origins of the Unitarian church, which had already broken to a doctrine that cost them dearly in human life. Here in the States, it was down to them being a pretty decent organization, but for the fact that they remained (some still remain) adamant that the reason Christ was the one and only, differrent from all men, is because he performed miracles as denoted in The Bible. Again, other than that they were pretty much OK. The thing is, The Enlightenment caused a lot of controversy. For the longest time, science and spirituality were kept separate by the very people who accepted both. This created a very stale environment in many churches, and they became rather dusty, emotionally flat, empirically-run sort ot places. They also became easy pickings for the revivalist movement that swept across the country. Suddenly you had people feeling the Divine again, in many different ways, including laying on the floors, shaking and tongue-speaking. The particular explanation for this in the case of women was that perhaps they were experiencing sexual frustration, and venting it via religion. Nice.

To put it into historical perspective, these matters are as dragged-out and annoying as any of those faced by those who have no religion. Even today, the concept that religion is compatible with science (e.g. evolution) faces a tough crowd.  

To those who say they are going with "standard" definitions, I would suggest that that might not do; and that possibility will surely rear up those who rightly put great import on the precision of words, how definitions must be agreed upon, how semantics will be agreed to be looked at (good luck) before entering into debate.

"Theism" is a good example. Pantheism is a good example, even. Conventional language has severe limits when dealing with individual religous experience. I am not sure that language is even useful or appropriate in the deeper realms of it. It can only be conveyed by allegory, which might in turn stir a similar sentiment. This was one of the great beauties of Transcendentalism, along with its optimism. A fine example of conjuring the vibrant experience of living (and still a radical example, in many circles, go figure) was Ralph Waldo Emerson's 1838 address to the Divinity School graduates of Cambridge ( http://www.emersoncentral.com/divaddr.htm) There is much there, but today and for current purposes I like this extract:

But when the mind opens, and reveals the laws which traverse the universe, and make things what they are, then shrinks the great world at once into a mere illustration and fable of this mind. What am I? and What is? asks the human spirit with a curiosity new-kindled, but never to be quenched. Behold these outrunning laws, which our imperfect apprehension can see tend this way and that, but not come full circle. Behold these infinite relations, so like, so unlike; many, yet one. I would study, I would know, I would admire forever. These works of thought have been the entertainments of the human spirit in all ages.
 
 


Post 28

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 7:48amSanction this postReply
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Max wrote: "Yes and no, for example, if someone invented a weather machine and always made the right weather for some persons and got worshipped therefore."
 
That is Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.  That is fine as far as it goes, but it lacks some rigor. 
 
1.  Any sufficiently advanced technology is perceived as technology.  The person with a simple bow does not regard the crossbow or compound bow as magic.
 
2.  Magic is a technology. We use the word to mean "supernatural."  That is our modern slant on the word.  Magic is only power and magic shares an etymology with machine and ultimately with power as the ability to do.
 
3.  What is meant, really, is myth.  If you descend in a helicopter among people who do not fly and who have never seen humans do it but who understand the concept via stories, then they explain you in the only way they can, by analogy to the stories.  Show them how it works and they assimilate the technology.  (Sometimes this does not happen, as in the case of cargo cults.) 
 
4.  Perhaps the chief reason that claim of being a god works among so-called primitives is that for them gods and people are closely related in form, nature, substance, purpose, etc. 
 
4.a.  One great exception is the Jewish (Abrahamic) tradition, in which God is so abstracted as to be beyond all understanding.  This was not their original idea.  Originally, they only worshipped their god who wanted "no other gods before me."  That admits the existence and validity of other gods.  In a couple hundred years or less, that god lost all name, all form, substance, beginning or end.  So, any human being claiming to be "God" had to produce extraordinary evidence -- supernatural miracles, etc.  On the other hand, Herakles only had to clean the Augean stables.  So, if by "god" you mean the Abrahamic deity, then yes, we have this non-natural being who cannot exist.
 
4.b. If "gods" are only beings with more than human powers, well, then, they must certainly exist.
 
(By the way, I heard a good quip.  On the NPR radio show "Science Friday" the interviewer wanted the physicist to talk about "other universes."  The physicist said that since the universe is everything we know and everything we can know that it makes no sense to speak of other universes.  You could hear the silence...)

 
 
 
 


Post 29

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Sarah House wrote: "Now you can talk about a being that orchestrated our evolution as a our "creator," but just let me pull out Occam's razor real quick like and... yep, that's just plain economically* improbable."

We understood Zeus, Apollo, and the others in terms of our own design.  Hephestus (Vulcan) would be impossible to a people who did not work metal themselves.  Since we extend our reach to other planets, it is easy to image other beings who do more.  We sanitize our satellites to avoid what we implicitly accept as very likely.
 
It is not so much that great, wise, just and loving beings planned our existence, but that in order to understand the evolution of life on Earth, you have to factor in Wayne and Garth, if not Bill and Ted, or Patsy and Edina.  I think that The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy explains most of what we do not want to know about how things really are in the universe.


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Post 30

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The relevance of what you wrote in your post 29 to what you quoted has completely escaped me.

Sarah

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Post 31

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

Michael loves to be wacky and cryptic and fancies himself a bit of a comedian.

Don't worry, he is harmless.


Post 32

Friday, July 15, 2005 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

About Post #29....Huh?


gw


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Post 33

Friday, July 15, 2005 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, I understand who MM is talking about but certainly not what he is talking about.  Let me try this puzzle.

We sanitize our satellites to avoid what we implicitly accept as very likely.
 
It is not so much that great, wise, just and loving beings planned our existence, but that in order to understand the evolution of life on Earth, you have to factor in Wayne and Garth, if not Bill and Ted, or Patsy and Edina.  I think that The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy explains most of what we do not want to know about how things really are in the universe.
He is recommending a book and saying people don't understand everything.

Wayne & Garth - Wayne's World
Bill & Ted - Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure
Patsy & Edina - Absolutely Fabulous

hmmmmmmmm,  sounds like someone was posting under the influence of something.



Post 34

Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 3:55amSanction this postReply
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Katdaddy from romantic Illinois wrote: Wayne & Garth - Wayne's World
Bill & Ted - Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure
Patsy & Edina - Absolutely Fabulous

 
We are all on the same page. 
 
I believe that even if Earth "evolved" "naturally" that is has been messed with by beings much greater in power, but not much smarter than us. 
 
I also believe that it is quite possible that beings greater than us planned and executed our so-called "universe" just as we build skyscrapers and space stations.  They may or may not give a care one way or the other about you, personally, or about which nation rules which plot of land.  (In God We Trust vs. Gott mit Uns).  Still, we may well have been created and our DNA is playing out a program. 
 
Of all the myths, the one that works for me -- probably just being a man of my time -- is Carl Sagan's Contact.  Close on the heels of that, differentiated only artistically, not metaphysically is Arthur C. Clarke's 2001...2010...3001.
 
Call them gods or angels or aliens, we are not alone.


Post 35

Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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"A supernatural being is one that is free of natural laws."
Sarah, in my current (and always barely sketchy) idea of a Creator, that Creator should have created the natural laws, and then He should be limited by them in His "interaction" with the universe. If the Creator exists, the physical limits posed on Him by the natural laws are being sustained willingly by Him.

My answers to the initial question put by Michael Marotta:

1.- Virtually all novice Objectivists are Atheists. I suspect they were looking for an Atheistic philosophy 100% rational at the same time, and thought that Objectivism was it. (Today I don't think so.)
2.- The great majority of people who remain as an Objectivist keep on being Atheist
3.- Some of the individuals that leave Atheism leave it partly due to the Hard-Atheism position of orthodox (Randian) Objectivism, which they think is a flawed position.

I hope that helps.

By the way, strict Materialism and Theism are incompatible, but that's not the case if you consider a non-strict materialism in where you defend the existence of both materiality and a Creator of that materiality. That's my current position.

Best wishes,

Joel Catalą
(Edited by Joel Catalą on 7/16, 6:15am)

(Edited by Joel Catalą on 7/16, 6:43am)


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Post 36

Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 6:24amSanction this postReply
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Joel,

If you want to be a theist, fine. It's your life. Just don't try to pawn it off as something logical or legitimate.

Sarah

Post 37

Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

My position is in principle as legitimate and logical as yours, as the Theist/Atheist question is an eternal issue.

And taking into account that this is the dissent section...

Best wishes,

Joel Catalą

(Edited by Joel Catalą on 7/16, 6:41am)


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Post 38

Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
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Joel,

No, your position is superfluous and unsubstantiated. The only reason the theism debate is still alive is because of pure denseness on the part of theists. You're trying to take a matter of faith and turn it into a defensible position, which just won't work.

Sarah

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Post 39

Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:01amSanction this postReply
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Michael M, you wrote:
Katdaddy from romantic Illinois wrote:
She is in Illinois, but the romance is in Florida. If you really needed that adjective, you could have written, "Katdaddy from Illinois, who is going to romantic Florida, wrote:"

//;-)

As to your position, the one about higher beings who created us.

Back to square one. (sigh) Who or what created them?

Looking for that answer is like looking into a mirror that is set opposite another, where you see reflections of reflections of reflections of reflections of reflections of reflections of reflections of...

That is one good reason to limit our knowledge to what we actually do know through reason, and treat other speculations as merely that - speculations.

I like good science fiction. Some of it becomes true later - under the terms of objective reality, not a writer's imagination. Most of it doesn't.

That's basically my view of religion, UFO's and whatnot. What ends up becoming true under the terms of objective reality, not a writer's imagination, will have my endorsement 100% (until I am no longer around to endorse anything at all).

Michael

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