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Post 80

Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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Except that higher crime areas are usually those communities with those least able to afford paying those taxes.....
Except that the higher crime is a contributing factor in their being less able to afford anything...

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Post 81

Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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The problem is this arbitrary and rationalistic goal of "justice," as an absolute.

Imagine that you are given two options.  You can live in near poverty and die at about 70 years of age, most likely, but you will have perfect justice - or so close that you can't assess the value of the difference.  Nobody will ever get away with taking any value from you by force or fraud.  Or, you can be rich and live a million years, but have to put up with occasional parasites using force or fraud to feed off your immense productivity.

Justice has a marginal returns point like any other commodity.  If your goal is "justice," an sich, then you have a religion, a neurosis - meaning the irrational pursuit of symbolic goals - that no amount of reality can satisfy.

The rational goals are productivity and the virtues necessary to achieve it and maximize it.  In a social context, to try and achieve some kind of perfect "justice" means using endless valuable resources for diminishing returns.  Why do you care whether some criminal walks the streets a free man? 

Recently on Fox, there was this hysteria about some guy who admitted up front that he was a pedophile and just loved little girls.  However, he also realized that his desires were not rational or appropriate, and assured everyone that he had never acted upon those desires, beyond hanging out where he could see little girls and occasionaly photographing them from a distance, and not only had no plans to do so, but had made a definite commitment to such.  Some Fox talk personality who is generally obnoxious naturally interviewed the guy, making comments to the effect of "how can we let such a *&^%$ walk the streets?"  And millions of viewers clearly obsessed with him about this guy.

So, it's better that someone who is afflicted with bizarre and potentially dangerous feelings NOT tell us about it?

Who cares?  If I had a kid, I wouldn't want her associating with such a person, obviously.  But there will always be a Bell curve of rationality, integrity, etc., with a few outliers like this unfortunate.  I'm concerned that MY children, should I ever have any, are safe.  The liklihood of them ever running into this particular guy is far, far less than the liklihood of getting hit by lightning or being poisoned by Chinese candy.  And at least he may let me know he's there.

Perfect justice is not worth the price.  The people who are the experts in assessing risk value, BTW, are the insurance companies, and I suspect that they will play a very big role in any future free society, essentially pricing most crime out of the market. 


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Post 82

Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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"The biggest challenge is convincing the private sector owner-operators that they have to invest in their own physical protection.   Because the most I can do is leverage federal money to go to first responders.  ...  Well, the most I can do is sway other state officials to get the money to local first responders.  But that is not going to protect the building that you are sitting in right now. 
"I tell private companies that operate the critical infrastructure: you have to invest in your own security.  You're the only person that can buy cameras and guards and barriers and reroute traffic, and have a redundancy plan to put your services in another building.
So, in the end, I can do my job, get an 'A' from my boss, and still not protect anything."

-- James F. Powers
Director of Homeland Security
State of Pennsylvania


Post 83

Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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When anarcho-capitalism arrives, I'm signing on with this private protection agency...

We are not simply a "private security company." We are a professional military, law enforcement, security, peacekeeping, and stability operations firm who provides turnkey solutions. We assist with the development of national and global security policies and military transformation plans. We can train, equip and deploy public safety and military professionals, build live-fire indoor/outdoor ranges, MOUT facilities and shoot houses, create ground and aviation operations and logistics support packages, develop and execute canine solutions for patrol and explosive detection, and can design and build facilities both domestically and in austere environments abroad.



Post 84

Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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Oh and how the collectivists hate these people!

I saw a good show on History channel, where a West African nation, the name escapes me at this late date, had a terrible problem with a brutal, ruthless insurgency.  These were people who used children as soldiers by giving them drugs, raping and looting, they were the full deal of barbarism at its best.  The small group of mercenaries, it was based in South Africa, had almost single handedly wrecked their organization, then enter the UN, which did not like the idea of private mercenaries interfering in sovereign affairs, pressured the government to have"talks" and fast forward a year or so they were back where they started.


Post 85

Monday, November 12, 2007 - 5:25pmSanction this postReply
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In all honesty, my Post #83 was tongue in cheek. I don't fear Blackwater Worldwide so long as they are merely a private "security agency" operating under the umbrella of law and order provided for all of us by U.S. governments.

However, I would fear Blackwater Worldwide and other similar protection agencies that would certainly crop up in anarchy. Why? Because in a theoretical state of anarcho-capitalism (I don't believe anarcho-capitalism can exist in any condition other than theory) private protection agencies would supply the "free" market in force and coercion with law and order as well as security. Therefore, if I found myself in a theoretical condition of anarcho-capitalism I'd want to sign up with the biggest, baddest protection agency out there. It's a simple matter of self-preservation.  


Post 86

Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
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Yes I don't support competing security agencies either.

Post 87

Monday, November 19, 2007 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Did Kurt misspeak?  Does he believe that no one should be allowed to sell guard services?
SECURITY INDUSTRY BUYER'S GUIDE
ASIS International (Formerly the American Society for Industrial Security)
http://www.sibgonline.com/

Full Company List (301)
Bodyguards--Armed (119)
Bodyguards--Unarmed (94)
Bonded Guards (77)
Canine Patrols (22)
Deputized/Commissioned Guards (31)
Maritime/Port Security (14)
Personnel--Armed (152)
Personnel--Unarmed (209)
Vehicle Patrols (132)
Kurt -- if you are referring to SIERRA LEON, the company was Executive Outcomes from South Africa.  Sierra Leon had been a model of peace and democracy and literacy and commerce until its civil war.   Things are better now. 

The problem of child soldiers is known across Africa.  There is one other nominally "industrialized" putatively "capitalist" nation that puts children into its army... though denying them the privilege of drinking beer while killing and dying for their country...


Post 88

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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"competing" as in the anrcho-capitalist model is what I meant (as per Post 85).

Yes it was Sierra Leon I think - interesting story.


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Post 89

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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SB: Therefore, if I found myself in a theoretical condition of anarcho-capitalism I'd want to sign up with the biggest, baddest protection agency out there. It's a simple matter of self-preservation.

You would be paying a lot of money for protection you do not need.  Are you engaged in an armed conflict right now?  How often do you call the police to protect you from your neighbors now?  You think that if you had a Killer Protection Corp working for you, you would be immune, but you would be isolated.  What do you sell as a good or service that is so valuable that I would want to risk doing business with someone who needs helicopter gunships and rangers to rappel from them? 

Your protection plan for your own home or business has to bear that cost.  Myself, I lock my doors and have alarms.  My protection agency checks my home, my property and my neighborhood once a year and gives me an assessment.  If I have a problem with a merchant -- won't accept return on wrong size shipped -- I can have a mediator look into it for me.  If I go into the gunship routine over a shirt, it will not take long for people to stop doing business with me.
  • You go to a barber and while in the chair she starts telling you about punching out her kids and killing the neighbor's dog.  Are you going to sit there on the theory that this $20 haircut is worth the risk?
  •  She says she gave some gal a buzzcut and when the bitch complained, she got on her cellie, punched up KillerGunShipsDotCom and had her blown away in the parking lot.  Are you going to sit there on the theory that this $20 haircut is worth the risk?
  •  She says that someone once tried to mess with her, so she pays $10,000 a year to KGS.Com "just in case." Are you going to sit there on the theory that this $20 haircut is worth the risk?
Now... imagine that you run a software firm... or a yard care service ... or you import art supplies ... or you fix air conditioners...  I mean, there are few real world goods and services that are worth killing or dying for.  Anyone who wants to kill for property is a looter and therefore someone to avoid.

Do you think that Ford has never lobbed mortar shells at GM only out of respect for the government monopoly on the initiation of force?  Force is unprofitable.  It is unreal, unrealistic, inefficient and ineffective.  To think otherwise is to accept the blank-out of a muscle mystic.  


Post 90

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 3:57pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Marotta,

Perhaps I should have read carefully each and every post in this dreary thread, but like Mr. Bidinotto I've been in too many discussions with anarcho-capitalists to imagine that minds will be swayed. Be that as it may, I'll take a shot...

As has been pointed out by Mr. Dwyer I believe, the "security" agencies which you use as models for anarchist protection agencies are nothing more than contractors within an existing governmental society. Their authority stops where the government's begins. Protection agencies in an anarchy would have full and ultimate law and order authority. They would be the absolute equivalent of a government as we know it in this world.

All of your examples touting "competitive" security agencies and comparing the market for them to the markets for other commodities and services in existing societies are faulty. There has never been a formal market for security agencies with ultimate authority, unless you wish to use the world as we now know it with its assortment of governments as a model for such a market.

You assume a market for force and authority would be a "free" market because markets for commodities and services are, in our experience, generally "free." The reason commodity and service markets which we experience today are generally "free" markets is that they operate within existing societies which generally enforce laws against murder and theft. If enforced laws against murder and theft are necessary to establish a more-or-less "free" market in society, how can you assume that your market in law and order enforcement would be a more or less "free" market? It seems that your market in enforced law and order is much more likely to be coercive than "free."

Another matter of illogic you'll have to clear up is the matter of individual sovereignty. You assume that citizens of an anarchy (a contradiction in itself) would participate in a more or less free market and select the protection agency of their choice to obtain enforced law and order. However, in theory each individual anarchist could go into business himself as a sole proprietorship in enforced law and order. Each individual in an anarchy could thus become a sovereign power unto himself. How, may I ask, is a cooperative market society going to form under conditions (much less conduct a prototypical "free" market) where no individual anarchist recognizes authority other than himself?

Lastly, there is a simple matter of knowledge to contend with. In conditions as I've outlined above how are individual anarchist members of society to know proper authority when they see it? In in a "society" in which each citizen not only has his own lawyer but his own lawmaker, police force, judge and jury as well, the observable distinction between initiatory and retaliatory physical violence completely disappears.

Imagine an uninterested citizen observer who happens to witness a fellow citizen being pummeled by three other fellow citizens. How is this observer to know whether he is witnessing a legal arrest of a resisting criminal or an illegal assault and battery? In fact, there is no way to tell.

Perhaps the single virtue of government is that there is only one of them in any particular jurisdiction. The jurisdiction and authority of a city policeman, a county sheriff and a state trooper are established and settled in a single, generally accepted body of public law. In the mythical society of the anarcho-capitalist, the jurisdiction and authority of private policemen would be whatever private law and contract says it should be. Moreover, since anarcho-capitalism recognizes no proper, public authority, nothing in anarcho-capitalist theory can prevent each anarcho-capitalist citizen from being self-employed as his own law-and-order entrepreneur. Anarcho-capitalists shouldn’t expect the "proper authorities" to protect them from burglers because in anarcho-capitalism a burglar may be the proper authority.

And one other thing…if you should ever find yourself walking in an anarcho-capitalist society, be careful where you step. In the unhampered "free" market which you imagine all property must be private…ALL property. If all property has an owner, then every plot of property is a separate and distinct jurisdiction for the owner’s private brand of law-and-order as outlined above. Be aware that in such an environment your trip to the grocery store would no longer be routine.

Regards,
Sherman


Post 91

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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P.S. to Mr. Marotta,

You write: "Force is unprofitable.  It is unreal, unrealistic, inefficient and ineffective."

Force and coercion are very definitely real, efficient and effective. Perhaps Ford and General Motors don't lob bombs at each other due to the government's threat of force. However, you can bet that the masses refrain from murder and theft due to the government's threat of retaliatory force. Being, I imagine, that you are a libertarian who believes taxation is theft, why do you pay taxes to the government if not because of the government's threat of retaliatory force against you?

It would seem, therefore, that force is not only real, efficient and effective but profitable as well, at least from the government's point of view.

Regards,
Sherman  


Post 92

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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Phil Osborn wrote,
BTW, regarding competing governments in the same geographical area, that was precisely the case in Vanuatu, formerly the New Hebrides, with a joint rule by the French, British and native governments. There were three separate court systems, with three distinct sets of laws. You could choose which one to go to, and if other parties preferred a different one, there were prior agreements as to how to set up a joint court panel to hear the case. I don't think that their respective police forces ever went to war.
The relevant point with regard to the argument against competing governments is conflicting laws within the same geographical area -- in other words, incompatible laws binding the same people. So, for example, there would be one law which says abortion is permitted and another one within the same geographical area governing the same people which says that abortion is forbidden. Did this sort of conflicting law exist in Vanuatu? And if so, who or what deciding which law the people were to be governed by?

- Bill

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Post 93

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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Reply to Bill:  I don't know...  (A FIRST!!!!)

But I'm pretty sure that the British (common-law based) vs. French (Napoleonic Law) vs. the native (cannibals until the 1940's) law must have had some significant conflicts.

Reply to Sherman.  A society of crooks and sociopaths will not be peaceful under any conceivable circumstances. 

I agree that the typical anarcho-capitalist picture(s) leave a lot of things out.  Probably the best basic source is still unfortunately the Tannehill's "Market for Liberty," as far as laying out those details.  Part of the problem is that things change.  What worked in medieval Ireland or the Hunza Valley - claimed to be historical examples of a working free-market anarchy - will require major upgrades to work in the urban information age.  The Tannehill's sketch out a lot of practical-sounding ideas, but unfortunately not much has been done to extend their work, and it was written well before personal computing, much less the internet. 

(Some of the things that the internet has made possible are directly relevant here, as in Letters of Credit, which allow secure transactions accross national borders.  Letters of Credit were certainly available long before the internet, but the knowledge and transaction costs were prohibitive for most small to medium sized companies.  In fact, LoC's bypass the unreliable state court systems.  International trade has soared due to the information revolution's massive reduction of many transaction costs which often involved depending upon state agencies or bureaucrats.  This has led some people to argue that anarchy is now possible(!), based on computers and other information age systems, ignoring the historical examples.)

What is sad is that the issue is important enough that it should be seriously addressed, but instead it gets bogged down in religious argumentation in the anarchy vs. state confrontation, especially in objectivist circles, or lost to politics in the Libertarian Party.  (The Libertarian movement was an almost unbelievable fountainhead of intellectual innovation and ferment until the LP sucked up all the human energy and made finding more warm bodies to sign up and vote LP more important than all the still unresolved basic issues, such as children's rights, just for one example.)

But, assuming that you realize the intellectual usefulness of taking your opponent's position and trying to defend it, just imagine for a moment that a network of binding interpersonal contracts, enforced via a similar network of title agencies, insurance companies, arbitration services, security companies and investigative agencies could replace the monopoly state, without your predicted collapse into dog-eat-dog warring factions. 

Given the HUGE dangers evinced by states over all recorded history, surely you would agree that ANY alternative that looked at all possible should be carefully scrutinized by any rational person interested in the issue of human survival, justice, peace, productivity, etc.  Imagine for a moment that Rand had never been approached by Galambos with his "competing governments" idea... 

And the benefits of such scrutiny would be not merely establishing further grounds to reject the possibility or to support - at minimum - further investigation and thought, but would very likely have positive applications in two or three related important areas, such as jurisprudence, the issue of just how much of the required state can actually be devolved to private agencies in the theorized ideal objectivist state, and possible new services that would supplement or improve security and freedom in that context. 

I.e., in general, I think that most libertarians and objectivists who support the limited state position still hold the firm conviction that any state is to be regarded as a potential threat, like keeping a doberman with a past record of generations of breeding for gratuitous violence to protect onesself.  Thus, efforts to find ways of safely removing power from the state should be welcomed.

It may be that the way that this will be worked out will be in virtual space.  I note that someone was recently convicted of grand theft for stealing virtual merchandise from one of the online VRs.  The cash value of the merchandise, which only existed as 1's and 0's on various computers was reportedly about EU4,000, based on the exchange rate between the virtual currency and the EU.  Perhaps a Galt's Gulch in 2nd Life is a good starting point.  Then the anarcho-capitalists can also purchase some land there and we'll see which system is viable.


Post 94

Friday, November 23, 2007 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

I generally agree with your Post #93. The state is certainly something to fear and to keep in check. Arguments about anarchy do get bogged down in ideologies and politics.

However, one statement you wrote I don't agree with:

But, assuming that you realize the intellectual usefulness of taking your opponent's position and trying to defend it, just imagine for a moment that a network of binding interpersonal contracts, enforced via a similar network of title agencies, insurance companies, arbitration services, security companies and investigative agencies could replace the monopoly state, without your predicted collapse into dog-eat-dog warring factions. 
Personally, I would be thrilled if anarcho-capitalism "could replace the monopoly state, without" its "predicted collapse into dog-eat-dog warring factions." My problem is that imagining such a thing is tantamount, for me, to imagining the existence of a unicorn. Why bother?

Why get your hopes up when such a society is clearly impossible? And unless anarcho-capitalists can successfully solve the logical problems I presented them, why should we believe such a society is anything but impossible?

Not only does believing in unicorns give us false promise of a future nirvana, it also colors and embitters present day politics. It creates sychophants of anarchism who see no value in compromise, who rationalize righteous law breaking, who become anti-social and anti-political, who believe voting is a "statist" activity.

I don't have much patience for such radical, political nonsense.

Regards,
Sherman


Post 95

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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Reply to Bill: I don't know... (A FIRST!!!!)

But I'm pretty sure that the British (common-law based) vs. French (Napoleonic Law) vs. the native (cannibals until the 1940's) law must have had some significant conflicts.
But you said, "You could choose which one to go to, and if other parties preferred a different one, there were prior agreements as to how to set up a joint court panel to hear the case. I don't think that their respective police forces ever went to war."

So which law were the people of Vanuatu governed by? They couldn't be governed by all three, if the laws were in conflict with each other.

- Bill

Post 96

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 11:15amSanction this postReply
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Bill you will no doubt hear silence from that question, or obfuscation.

Post 97

Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
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That's a good question. The one person I know personally who might know the answer is Congressman Dana Rorabacker, who went to Vanuatu to help with a libertarian coup there in the early '80's.

(Briefly. The British & French warships steamed out of port, having given up their joint protectorate, leaving their hand-picked puppet socialist government in charge. The libertarians, tribespeople who had been given copies of various libertarian or objectivist works to study for several years, with tutalage from Dana and other libertarians from the U.S., as well as weapons, took over the government in a bloodless ( I believe ) coup and imprisoned the top members of the puppet government. Then the British and French steamed back into port and removed the libertarians from office, putting them into jail and reinstating their puppet government.)

Wow! TWO FIRSTS! Somehow, this seems ontologically implausible. I'll look into it.

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Post 98

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer asked:  "So which law were the people of Vanuatu governed by? They couldn't be governed by all three, if the laws were in conflict with each other."




Private international law goes under the rubric "the conflict of laws."  This was first formally addressed in the 5th century AD by the Code of Justinian which established a "third book of laws."  (See http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Dissent/0058.shtml)  People living under different laws have problems that bring them together such as divorce, inheritance, and adoption.  We have lived in a "global" society for centuries but you certainly can appreciate the fact that when Toyota buys parts from Korea for cars to be sold in the USA a multiplicity of jurisdictions are crossed.  Businesses live with this and have for centuries.

Conflict of laws is a reality in the USA.  One motivation for the US Commercial Code was to reconcile the fact that a purchase order, bill of lading, and invoice will be three documents with three intentions under three (now four) different laws. The challenge "you can't make a federal case out of it" speaks to this.  Bank robbery is one easy example of a crime that is at once state and federal.  The reason that the US Constitution has a clause for "full faith and credit" is to help resolve this, at least to establish a framework.  In reality, "full faith and credit" does not always apply.  Your concealed weapon permit from Michigan will not be honored in New York City.  A police officer certified by one state cannot get a "lateral transfer" to a department in another state without some kind of special override or without (most often) re-training in the local academy.  Of course, as we know the Second Amendment has not been incorporated to the states.  So you have a federal right to keep and bear arms but perhaps no such right depending on where you live.

If you bought a house and read all the paper work you might have seen that your local Board of Realtors specified arbitration as the first remedy.  If you are accused of shoplifting -- or fraud or conversion of asserts -- the security guards are not bound by the Bill of Rights or the Miranda Decision, if the perpetator and the victim choose to keep this a private matter.  (See the Hallcrest Reports that I have cited here in other threads.)  The police complain that corporate crime goes "unpunished" but what that means is that the sanctions are privately agreed to and not taken to their (competing and ineffective) service system.

I do not know about the details on Vanatu with its three sets of laws but the idea that there must be one law for everyone in each geographic locale is just not true.  Another example of the intersection of private laws and public laws are the sanctions for academic cheating and plagiarism.  Vassar University's art museum website carried materials taken from my work without my permission.   As a copyright violation I could have made a federal case out of it.  Instead they took an academic action --purely private -- against the perpetrator and I was satisfied with that.

These are all examples of overlapping laws, parallel systems long in place (1500 years in some sense) that are part of our experiential world.  They show that you do not need to have everyone in the same place under the same laws.  They also show private law working without public sanction.  They show competing systems working without armed conflict.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 11/25, 7:05am)


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Post 99

Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 10:47amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

The cases you cite are not counter-examples to the point that you can't have mutually exclusive laws governing the same geographical area.
Your concealed weapon permit from Michigan will not be honored in New York City.
Right, and this is not the same geographical area. Do you get that?
If you bought a house and read all the paper work you might have seen that your local Board of Realtors specified arbitration as the first remedy.
Right, and the law permits this; there is no other law in conflict with it.
If you are accused of shoplifting -- or fraud or conversion of asserts -- the security guards are not bound by the Bill of Rights or the Miranda Decision, if the perpetator and the victim choose to keep this a private matter.
Yes, and the law permits this is as well. None of the cases you've cited refute what I'm saying. I can't imagine why you think they do.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 11/25, 10:50am)


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