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Post 140

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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what is wrong with my idea?  It is cheaper than mercenaries.  Just throw a 20mm AA gun - an Oerlikon say - on every ship with some ammo and the crew can blast any of these creeps in boats to hell and gone.

Post 141

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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I like that idea, Kurt.

I just filed into a bigger area on "Commerce" in my officer some materials from maritime academies, merchant marine trade journals, and related ephemera.  Basically, it would require a crewman to have the skill to use the weapon and that would be in addition to some other necessary rating.   It is cheaper for the shiupping carrier companies to suffer losses, as when Ford Motor Company decided that it was cheaper to fight lawsuits than to redesign the Pinto.  Also, for many reasons, captains prefer that their crews not carry arns, certainly not small arms. Pirates see things differently, but that is one of the things that makes them pirates. 

Here in Ann Arbor, there was an Open Carry Party.  In Michigan you do not need a license to wear a weapon openly.  One of the organizers tried to wear his gun into a store and was kicked out.  The gun-toter said that it was for everyone's safety that he was armed.  The store owner said that he would rather be robbed than have a shoot-out in his store.  It goes back to Jane Jacobs's Two Syndromes.  Traders do not have the "mind cast" of Guardians.


Post 142

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 11:36amSanction this postReply
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I am presuming, then, Michael, that you do not agree with L. Neil Smith on gun wearing...

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Post 143

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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(Sorry, Robert, but although I have read Smith's SF and know him to be a gun guy, I don't know the reference in particular.) 

Robert, I believe that violence is the last resort of the incompetent.  I believe that property is not worth killing or dying for, not my own, and certainly not someone else's.  I had a cop ask me, "What about your wife?" I merely opened my mouth to reply, but he was right there with, "Right, she's not your property."

I believe that the entire concept of protection and defense needs to be rethought.  It is as though we were Greeks in the agora trying to understand money of account.  We lack some intellectual development.  Or, from the guardian point of view, Greek hoplites trying to understand Buddhist monks who use karate and judo.  (How do you form a phalanx of karate guys?  How do you flank a judo formation?  See -- wrong thinking...)  ... to say nothing of the deeper question of why karate and judo were developed: "We can't let them rob us of course, but we don't want to hurt them, either."  That's my context of origin, where I am trying to reason and experiment from.

Now -- lest I be accused of wussiness and pacifism -- we are all fallible creatures, by nature.  The zebra gets eaten.  Sometimes, the lion gets her jaw broken by the zebra and she starves to death.  Errors happen.  We are all fallible creatures.  So, if some bank robber gets killed robbing a bank, we can all be feel sorry for ourselves that we were fallible, but them's the breaks for the robber, too.  Tough luck, all the way around.

That said, it is much better to avoid a robbery than to counter one with opposite and superior force. 

The expense of buying a gun and learning to use it could be better invested.

When philosophizing gun-toters come up with their challenges, it usually reduces to the Hayashi Principle, a metaphysical impossibility: "What if you were..."  Whoa! How did I get there in the first place? 

It is not what you do to the perpetrator -- tough luck, like I said -- it is what your own violence does to you, a factor seldom considered by those who offer bravado texts in online forums.


Post 144

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, it sounds very noble that you are rethinking violence, and I'm in favor of looking at all of the concepts involved, but self-defense is too basic to be discarded without dis-valuing life itself.

It must gall you to have to live under the safety umbrella of the government, its police, courts, military and all of those who aren't rethinking violence - so you have the peace to do your thinking.

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Post 145

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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From a search for "L. Neil Smith on wearing guns"
...  not one of the principal genocides of the twentieth century, and there have been dozens, has been inflicted on a population that was armed. Daniel D. Polsby, Washington University Law Quarterly, Volume 73, Number 3, Fall 1997
Rwanda.
Clubs and machetes.
Available to both sides.

Funny thing about Rwanda -- if anything about it could be funny -- the Hutu and Tutsi apparently lived in relative peace until Germany and then Belgium arrived.  Something about colonialism allowed them to find advantage in a political struggle that finally devolved into genocide.  I remember when they became independent and were briefly one nation, Rwanda-Burundi.

Also, of course, closer to home, the Native Americans were wiped out, even though they sometimes had superior weapons.  The Cheyenne were the finest light cavalry in the world, it was said.  Native Americans bought their  weapons on the open market, while the Army was stuck with government issue. Thomas Jefferson and some others had plans -- obviously not well formulated -- to integrate native Americans into the new republic by taking to them education in skilled trades.  That never happened, but the Trail of Tears did.

Why does Belgium even continue to exist as a nation, Fleming and Walloon?  Why did the Czechs and Slovaks just go their separate ways without a civil war?  Would not the American War Between the States count as a "genocide" as the North ground the South down with a war of attrition, throwing sheer numbers at a nominally superior army?

Genocide is more complicated than guns.


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Post 146

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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SW:  It must gall you to have to live under the safety umbrella of the government, its police, courts, military and all of those who aren't rethinking violence - so you have the peace to do your thinking.


It galls me not one bit more than it must gall you to see the greed of unregulated capitalism collapse and be rescued by massive government bailouts. (:-)

I do not think that I can be protected from a criminal by another criminal.

 You are sort of like Hank Rearden, thinking that you can still work to save the system that victimizes you.  You expect them to wake up and realize that they need you to stay alive, but that assumes that they want to live in the first place...  Check your premises...

See, Steve, I am just more consistent about capitalism.   I keep myself safe.  Should I fail to do that, the fault will be mine.  Should I have a concern, I will buy products and services that meet my needs. I will not demand that someone provide me free of charge with my natural, inalienable, creator-endowed right to police protection. 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 10/14, 8:45pm)


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Post 147

Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 10:45pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, every minute of every day the success of your life owes much to the laws, the courts that back them and the government that maintains them. They make what degree of freedom we enjoy and that is the required environment for the trader. The computer you type into, the server hosting this site, and the internet wouldn't be here without this environment. You say that you will buy the goods and services you need - bullshit, Michael, because without a government you will have to hide in a cave or go hunting with a club. There won't be any environment that lets businesses create the products or provide the services you want. Sound familiar? We've had this discussion.

You aren't consistent about Capitalism, Michael, you don't even know what it is. You think the 'free' in free market is free as in no cost, no effort, no identity, as in exists magically. Ta da.... presented by Michael Houdini, freedom in the midst of anarchy - a floating abstraction hovering unconnected to any reality.

Look at what is possible here in a country with a mixed economy and then head over to Somalia and check out the wonderfulness of anarchy - when you are over there and someone decides to rob you or kidnap you - what are the goods and services that are available to you in that wonderful environment?

Why keep whining about anarchy - it is just a refusal to acknowledge any rules as having jurisdiction - why not just ignore what we quaintly refer to as laws? If someone tries to arrest you for violation of a 'law,' just join with others and form an opposing protective agency with different laws. Do you need someone's permission to have anarchy? Does government have to make it legal for you? To create it for you by withering away magically? By the way, since you are intellectually flirting with pacifism, does that mean you would never consider the use of force to achieve anarchy? So, if it isn't just given to you on a platter, you won't ever have it - is that right?

Post 148

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:42amSanction this postReply
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I made mention of L.Neil Smith because his worlds are anarchistic societies, yet every responsible persons wear guns - and it is considered irresponsible to deny wearing them, an act decrying self-protection...

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Post 149

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, it's like Heinlein's Beyond this Horizon, where everyone is armed. 
I read these by L. Neil Smith:
Probability Broach
Tom Paine Maru
War Dove
Their Majesty's Bucketeers

Steve, are you claiming that "obedience to law is liberty"?

The reason why the USA first and foremost, but the Anglo world in general -- USA, UK, Canada, South Africa, Australia -- and the wider Western cultures have freedoms and peace not known elsewhere -- well, World War One and Two and the Holocaust notwithstanding and then there were the Native Americans and the Aborigines of Australia and on and on, but let's ignore them for now because they are not us. -- the reason why we have freedom and other places do not has nothing to do with the LAW and everything to do with CULTURE and TRADITION. 

You can pass laws much easier than you can create cultures or traditions.

All the high-sounding phrases in the Soviet Constituttion did not amount to a hill of beans.
Article 50. In accordance with the interests of the people and in order to strengthen and develop the socialist system, citizens of the USSR are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly, meetings, street processions and demonstrations.
Exercise of these political freedoms is ensured by putting public buildings, streets and squares at the disposal of the working people and their organisations, by broad dissemination of information, and by the opportunity to use the press, television, and radio
Article 54. Citizens of the USSR are guaranteed inviolability of the person. No one may be arrested except by a court decision or on the warrant of a procurator.

Article 55. Citizens of the USSR are guaranteed inviolability of the home. No one may, without lawful grounds, enter a home against the will of those residing in it.
Read the entire thing here.

Myself, if I had Mr. Peabody's Wayback, yes, I would choose the USSR over Somalia, but not because I would expect the use of a public space to give a speech of my choosing.  (At least not more than once!)

For you, laws are made by Congress.  For me, laws are made by contract.  "Rule of law" is a matter of culture, and cultural expectations. You think that laws are made by legislatures.  I agree: some are.  Far more "laws" (terms of agreement) are made contractually.  You see laws as big public things, carved in stone, hoisted up for all to see.  I see laws as small, personal things, the result of free agreements by free persons. 



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Post 150

Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Freedom results from an environment where laws based upon individual rights are enforced by government. You just don't get that. You think that you can either get by with no laws, or that everything under the sun is a law. You say that law is made by contract. But if contracts can't be enforced, or if contract disagreements can't be resolved, or if a party to contract engaged in fraud that's the end of the contract, and you have no more of what you call 'law.' Contracts ONLY work in an environment with a set of laws (real laws) and courts that make it possible for contracts to work. Want to try to make a contract with one of the war lords in Somalia?

You said, "...freedom ... has nothing to do with the LAW and everything to do with CULTURE and TRADITION." That is nonsense on several levels. Law IS part of the culture. And the respect for the law is a primary part of the culture. We have a tradition of being a nation of laws, we have a tradition of respecting the law.

You asked me if I thought that "obedience to law is liberty" - to the degree that those law arise out of individual rights, YES. Let me phrase it a little differently, "Do I think that observance of individual rights results in liberty" - Yes - don't you? Do you want 'laws' - whether they are from culture or contracts - that violate individual rights? Your rejection of laws, even based upon individual rights and your rejection of government even when it is minarchist, leave you without a leg to stand on. Anarchy welcomes theft, fraud, and violence to take an equal standing with voluntary agreement.

Post 151

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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But if contracts can't be enforced, or if contract disagreements can't be resolved, or if a party to contract engaged in fraud that's the end of the contract, and you have no more of what you call 'law.'

The goode and ancient common law functioned quite well without "laws" as such and without prisons or armed police.  If you had a dispute that couldn't be resolved peacefully and privately, then you took it to the court, whose credibility depended upon its track record of fairness.  The court would analyze your dispute as a subset of all the covenants and contracts, implicit and explicit, as well as the precedents that impacted behavior, within the framework of the commons. 

The common law had a very effective way of dealing with scofflaws who violated contracts and then refused to go to court or refused to abide by the courts' decisions.  Those people were "outlawed," meaning the court had explicitly stated that it would not protect them and that they no longer had standing before it.  That meant that anyone was free to kill or sieze the property of the "outlaw," the person who chose to live outside the law.

The common "law" is the realistic law, the objective law that has its roots in the recognition that everything starts in the commons and then makes its way to private property and private agreements as people see the opportunity to specialize, accumulate capital, and bid for the right to fence in land, etc. 

What you think is law is the rule of conquest, the divine rights of kings and the absolute property concept that flowed from it, the positive law that supplants the common law by force. 


Post 152

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Osborn, it makes no sense for you to try to tell me what I think 'law' is. It is much easier for me to just tell you. I think valid law, is law based upon individual rights - nothing else is valid law. And valid law needs, requires and deserves to be enforced.



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Post 153

Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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That's odd.  I thought that this was the argument room...

No disagreement yet that I can think of...  Wait, a glimmer...  OK, let's try this:

And valid science, based on Aristotle - or the Catholic Church's reading of him, insists that the sun goes around the earth, in a perfect circle, I seem to recall.  The problem was not with his reasoning as such, but rather upon the methodology involved. Science rests its case upon experimental validation that can be replicated by anyone.  Trying to deduce the physical laws of the universe a priori has not had a very good record. 

The key epistemological element requirement for truth is that it correspond to reality.  Since we know from personal experience - most of us anyway - that we can be in error in our identifications, we try to include extra checks of that correspondence, made by independent labs, etc., before we go public, as otherwise other people - knowing that errors are possible - will not believe us, and, will, in fact, deride us as fools for making claims without proper verification procedures.

Science is not the only realm in which proper verification procedures are critical to arriving at truth, or expecting other people to believe what we are claiming. 

Law, as a body of facts and knowledge, is another example.  Assuming that "... valid law, is law based upon individual rights - nothing else is valid law," still, as Rand commented upon occasionally, BTW, the whole process of making the identifications of the elements of that body of knowledge, both in the abstract and in the concrete cases of disputes that form the basis for the existence of said law, still has to be itself studied and a proper structure implemented.

If "law" is some set of rules handed down by authorities - elected or otherwise, accepted on their word to be true, then, from Bastiat's "The Seen and the Unseen," we can already predict that, no matter how pure their motivation, they will be biased in how they allocate resources for identifying those rules and establishing enforcement, at minimum, and this has the natural tendancy to slip into positive feedback loops, corruption, collapse of any real "justice," and finally the rule of pure power.  (I think that we are presently somewhere between stages two and three here in the U.S.)  Luckily, we had the Constitution of the Iroquois Nations' as an example of how to forstall this spiral via checks and balances, but that system is far from foolproof, as we're presently seeing.

If you want your individual rights to be sustained by the legal system, then that system itself has to be structured in such a way as to directly connect valid legal decisions to both fact and principle.

We are presently seeing the latter stages of a process by which a failure of the common law (resulting from a systemactic attack upon it), largely in the 19th century, led to a rise of De Tocqueville's innumerable boards, commisions and regulatory bureaucracies, to the point that it is more often than not less profitable to fight a case than to simply give in, and meanwhile ficticious corporate persons are using state immunity to plunder the world, relying upon those very bureaucracies to shield them from double jeopardy in the remains of the civil courts, such as it is.

The common law grounded itself in history, contract, covenant and the basic law of the commons.  While it could be cumbersome, it was not inherently instable, and the cumbersomeness could be avoided most of the time by signing prior agreements to arbitrate disputes or general contracts such as the UCC.

If you want your rights protected, you need a stable system, based on facts and objective reasoning, which is NOT what we have now. 


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Post 154

Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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Phil writ: "If you want your rights protected, you need a stable system, based on facts and objective reasoning, which is NOT what we have now. "


Well, you went three sides around the barn to get there, but OK. 

As much as Steve W. hates being told what he thinks, let me say that he thinks that all those other governments -- or most of them -- to some greater or lesser degree were illegitimate and invalid, not being based on objective law, but on tribalist collectivist traditions.  He would say that despite some achievements -- Athens, Rome -- none respected individual rights as a fundamental purpose.  Even though the USA came closest to this with the original Constitution -- Steve not likely to be counted as 3/5 of a person -- we still have yet to see an objective government based on objective law.  But if we did...  then we would... and so...

I have this question.

Does an objective government have to have its own employees as police?  Could it contract out the monopoly on retaliatory force, even contract out parts of that: road patrols, street beats, detectives, laboratories.  (In fact, now laboratories are a booming contract business as governments are overwhelmed with CSI demands.)

What gives a policeman his power is that he is sworn to a court.  The courts are the source of objective law enforcement.  (Objective law per se originating with the legislature, we assume.)  Courts hire and swear in all kinds of people now.  At my community college our chief was the ex-sheriff and the last thing he wanted was guys with guns on campus, so our fulltime patrollers were sworn by the county court only to enforce parking violations.  So, public parking enforcement could be a separate contracted business, could it not? -- even under (an objective) government.


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Post 155

Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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Michael accurately reflected my thoughts in this area.

And then he asked, "Does an objective government have to have its own employees as police?" No. Given that the end goal is the best protection of individual rights, I can see no reason not to consider contracting out services. There are many variations that could be tried - like reducing the taxes on a property that has its own protection and flagging that property as not eligible for certain kinds of police responses, but eligible for others - or let the owners/managers of that property request any help that anyone else might, but charging them for those that aren't included in their self-protect tax plan.

Post 156

Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 6:38pmSanction this postReply
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Cha-ching!
Badda-bing!!
 
 
 


Post 157

Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivists should be open to creative new ways of trying competition in absolutely every single area... but one. There can not be competition betweens sets of laws. Ultimately every given act must resolve, jurisdictionally, to a single set of laws. Criminal or not, contractually binding or not, government has authority or not - for any act, there should only be one answer. That is because there is but one set of individual rights and one reality. It is from individual rights that the constitution arises. It is from the constitution that valid law arises. The laws need to be known in advance, understandable, and to be stable, specific and applied consistently. To the degree that is the case, men of good character and benevolent civilization will flourish.

Post 158

Monday, December 15, 2008 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Are you saying there should be only 1 jurisdiction, that multiple jurisdictions -- i.e., multiple bodies of law -- are inherently wrong?

[EDIT: I'll re-ask this question in the Q&A section. I'm curious to see what people think]

Jordan
(Edited by Jordan on 12/15, 12:42pm)


Post 159

Monday, December 15, 2008 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan asked me, "Are you saying there should be only 1 jurisdiction, that multiple jurisdictions -- i.e., multiple bodies of law -- are inherently wrong?"

No, just one body of laws per jurisdiction. I see jurisdiction as a process whereby one mates a real-life situation with the law to determine things like which would be the proper court to hear a case, who has standing in a given kind of case, which body of law applies to a given case, what geographical area has authority, etc.

But when all is said and done, there is only one set of laws that apply - no competing laws.

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